Avatar: The Last Airbender

That too, the character designs became more consistent with time. Pearl's design in season 1 fluctuates more than it does in the last three seasons combined.

To add onto my previous point, though, it's not that a simple artstyle equals bad animation, or that a complex artstyle equals good animation. In fact, it's almost always the opposite. Simple designs tend to be better animated while complex designs tend to be more stiff and lifeless, for the obvious reason that simple designs are easier to draw multiple times in a row, so you can spend the same amount of time and effort animating a simple design as you do a complex design and the simple design will be much more animated.

It's why Goku in DBS: Broly is so much better animated than he is in Z, GT, or Super, his design was drastically simplified compared to the previous shows, allowing the animators to do more because they had less work to do for each frame of animation.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 22nd 2021 at 8:44:38 AM

It's weird you say that as they get more detailed outfits as the series goes on.

The storytelling of Rise of the TMNT is still a downgrade to what came before it, though.

(Although, begrudgingly, the art style fits its tone.)

Funny you guys should mention SU's lack of action and conflict as a difference between it and ATLA, since the climax of ATLA revolved around Aang resolving not to kill Ozai.

Eh, I'd argue that TMNT 2012's story started out clunky, got great midway and began to falter at the end. Also, ROTTMNT was badly affected by being cancelled mid-production and the producers being forced to rush the plotlines now that they had only 2 seasons. And ROTTMNT does have better overall character dynamics and manages to have a lot more endearing realtionships all around (especially how better handled Donnie was in Rot TMNT)

Edited by VengefulBale on Jan 22nd 2021 at 10:04:12 AM

Still that happened after he had punched the royalty out of Ozai and had him basically at swordpoint.

Edited by Blueace on Jan 23rd 2021 at 4:11:10 PM

Not really. Aang had an earlier opportunity to kill Ozai with the lightning bending. But in any case, the emotional conflict was resolved before the fight even started.

Dealing with the morality of war, his avoidance issues, and their reprecussions, is pretty much core of his character arc, alongside the Found Family, forgiveness, and training. Really, look back especially at The Storm, but also at shutting down after temporarily losing Appa, or turning away from Guru Pathik. He struggles to get over his avoidance of losing his identity. He's happy to act where he can keep it, but challenges that fundamentally change him as a person are hard. That's not to say he doesn't meet those challenges. He does, with his friends' help.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jan 23rd 2021 at 12:47:43 PM

And that works great for Aang’s arc.

Not so much when you try to apply it to adult show, or to a giant robot show. Hence my issue with the Avatar “formula”. It lacks the context that made it perfect for Aang.

This is a random thought but I really wish we could have explored Iroh's guilt regarding what happened to Zuko and Azula.

I'm not the biggest Iroh fan around here (or at least not nearly as big of a fan as everyone else) but Iroh was willingly complicit for a significant portion of their abuse. Sure, Iroh decides to raise Zuko as his own but we never get a scene of him being genuinely sorry for "looking away". He contributes to Zuko's development and manhood, but he really never addresses the fact that what happened to Zuko wasn't okay.

Would Zuko have listened? Maybe not. But it once again makes Iroh seem pretty passive, as he very rarely openly criticizes his brother. I would love to have a scene in the comics where Azula acknowledges Iroh's complicity.

People who called Ozai out for his bullshit in the Fire Nation tended to experience terrible punishments, up to and including facial scarring and banishment.

Iroh presumably didn't think Zuko would have listened to him if he just outright said "Your father's an asshole".

Zuko needed to start listening to his moral compass before he could be straight up told that his dad was an asshole. Otherwise, he might just have left Iroh behind somewhere in the Poles or wherever their stops were.

Why am I suddenly picturing Zuko owning a magical talking compass that acts like Jiminy cricket

Now that I think about, the criticism in my previous post is just a byproduct of my "Iroh should have challenged his brother to the throne" mentality.

Iroh acknowledging his guilt would probably compel the story to have him do something about it, which knowing Iroh...he probably wouldn't.

There's also the fact that a good chunk of the abuse happened while Iroh was away fighting a war. And that he was a bit busy mourning the loss of his own son afterwards.

It's likely that the moment Iroh finally realized just how bad Ozai's abuses of Zuko were was the moment he saw his brother about to burn Zuko's face.

As for the "Iroh should have fought Ozai in an Agni Kai" thing, Iroh already explained why.

• He believed continuing the Vicious Cycle of the Firelord family fighting and killing each other needed to stop. The Avatar overthrowing Ozai otoh sends a better message.

• He admitted he wasn't sure he'd win. And Word of God backs him up on that - Ozai was the strongest Firebender alive at the time. The only edge Iroh would have had would be the lightning redirection. And Ozai would probably have known Iroh had that technique - the only reason Aang's use of it is nearly enough to end the fight was because Ozai had no idea Aang knew it.

Edited by M84 on Feb 8th 2021 at 12:11:41 AM

The general Fanon tendency of making Ozai a complete chump often makes people forget that he has feats of Firebending just as great as Iroh during the Comet.

Because everyone knows Abusive parents are just weaklings with no power whatsoever.

The whole "brother killing a brother" argument is completely bogus for multiple reasons:

• Iroh refuses to fight his brother because...history, but then sends Zuko to fight and overthrow his sister.

• While you could argue that it sends a better message, it's not exactly ideal to rely on the slim chance of a twelve year old who was missing for over a hundred years (and missing at the present moment) defeating the most powerful firebender in the world at his peak.

• If Iroh was really concerned about history, he would realize that he would be written in the text as a war criminal had Aang not shown up. On the other hand, had he managed to defeat Ozai the world would seem him as a hero for stopping his genocidal brother from incinerating an entire continent.

• The possibility of Iroh losing against Ozai is not as large when you realize he has the most powerful benders and fighters in the world on his side (i.e both the White Lotus and the Gaang).

• Lastly, he's straight up wrong. Who cares about history when millions of peoples lives are literally on the line?

Okay, this is fair. There's also the possibility that the abuse didn't become physical until that moment, making it less apparent to spot beforehand. Also, Ursa was there to protect Zuko for most of his life.

Edited by deuteragonist on Feb 7th 2021 at 11:54:15 AM

Having the other fighters on his side wouldn't matter in an Agni Kai.

Because an Agni Kai is supposed to be a duel.

Edited by M84 on Feb 7th 2021 at 10:16:46 PM

I don't think this was posted here, so: Prepare your dice, my comrads, because Avatar the Last Airbender is coming to the tabletop rpg world.

Admittedly by the point in time mentioned their (when Ozai was burning the Earth Kingdom) you are far past an Agni Kai and I think Iroh would of had history more on his side if he hypothetically stopped Ozai there.

That's one specific scenario though.

Besides, Iroh had his own destiny to fulfill - storming Ba Sing Se to liberate it.

There are two things to keep in mind of Iroh when discussing his reasons for not fighting Ozai:

1) Iroh is infamous enough that local Earth Kingdom generals and soldiers recognize him as the Dragon of the West who led the 500-Day Siege of Ba Sing Se and broke through the Wall. And they don't care what Iroh had to say about that siege or his change of heart. To them, he was a war criminal that needs to be put on trial and possibly executed. So for Iroh, the only way he could redeem himself is to personally liberate Ba Sing Se from the Fire Nation.

If he went to fight Ozai, history would see him as a Sore Loser and a jealous brother who wants to deny Ozai victory and steal the crown for himself. And that he would conspire with the enemies of the Fire Nation to do so and would give them anything they want in return (i.e. compensations for the damages caused in the war). Thus, a traitor and puppet in the eyes of the Fire Nation citizens... and a distrustful, deceitful figure for the Earth Kingdom who would be weary of letting the Dragon of the West be in a position of power where he could restart the war for lost glory.

The Avatar is the only one who can defeat Ozai ironically because of Might Makes Right uno reversal and the Avatar needs no backup army to defeat one man. The Fire Nation, particularly Ozai, preached of how the strong can determine the decisions and rules of the world. Thus, if the Avatar defeats Ozai in single combat, then it is clear that the Avatar gets to decide the rules and terms. If Aang decides that Zuko shall be the new Fire Lord, then that decision shall be final.

It's also clear that Iroh doesn't want to rule the Fire Nation, obviously feeling his age and would rather retire in a teahouse, and he has been secretly mentoring Zuko to be a good man so that he'll be ready to assume the role as Fire Lord. He made it all clear in his final speech to Zuko before Sozin's Comet arrives.

2) It is evident that Iroh has spent so much time with the Spirits and journeyed to the Spirit World in between the Siege of Ba Sing Se and Zuko's banishment that he could see the spirit of Aang and Roku flying on a dragon when no one else could. Thus, he's not gambling on the fate of the world for the appearance of a missing Avatar. He knows that the Avatar will confront Ozai. After all, Aang disappearing without a trace and his scent just vanished from the face of the world? For Iroh, that would be a sign that the spirits (or in this case, a Lion Turtle) are getting involved and Aang isn't running away from the battle like in the past.

I will say that I’m curious how Zuko managed to get the rest of the Fire Nation on his side in the immediate aftermath of Ozai’s defeat. Obviously, we still have dissidents in the comics for various reasons, but the general populace seems to have accepted him, so I’m wondering how exactly he garner support. Was defeating Ozai and Azula enough for that?

Fire Nation is big on Might Makes Right and the divine right to rule.

So I assume Zuko just took the throne and for most of them going against the wishes of the Fire Lord is simply unthinkable, so they just...let him.