History WMG / TheHobbit

"That leaves you just ten minutes. You will have to run," said Gandalf.
"But-" said Bilbo.
"No time for it," said the wizard.
"But-"said Bilbo again.
"No time for that either! Off you go!"

** Gandalf has one of the three rings originally bestowed upon the elves. He had the ring of fire which is meant to encourage bravery and adventurous feelings. Early passage of the hobbit also implies this when it first introduces Gandalf and says: Tales and adventures sprouted up all over the place wherever he went, in the most extraordinary fashion.

** Alternately...

** Impalusible. The Silmarils are a BIG DEAL, the most important artifacts in the history of Middle Earth. The One Ring allows Sauron to maintain the power he had in the first age . . . when he was a minor boss monster in the quest of Beren and Luthien for a silmaril. It is however possible that it may have come into contact with a silmaril and still reflect some of its light, much like the phial of Galadriel that was given to Frodo.
*** We never see any indications in the Silmarillion that the Silmarils are artifacts of Power in the same sense as the Rings. They are the most beautiful things in Ea, and hallowed such that no creature of darkness can touch them without being burnt, but they don't grant any real supernatural powers.
*** Also note that the Arkenstone is first mentioned ''after'' Bilbo finds the Ring beneath the Misty Mountains, the point where Tolkien realized that ''Literature/TheHobbit'' was really part of his larger saga of the Jewels and the Rings.

* ...Is because of that damn [[TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons racial +2 Constitution Bonus]]. More hit points mean they can take more punishment.
** I nominate this for funniest post on this wiki.

[[WMG: Possible casting choice in the Live-Film version of ''The Hobbit'']]

* Still listed as an IMDB rumor.

Just to retroactively tie into the scene where Gandalf summons Gwaihir in the LOTR movies with the moth's aid.
** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

* Courtesy of Creator/StephenFry and Creator/HugoWeaving having both worked on the former project together and the latter because Sylvester Mc Coy is playing Radagast the Brown.
** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

[[WMG: Tauriel the Elf Warrior-Maiden will be...]]

** Confirmed, sadly.

** [[spoiler: Jossed. Bilbo only narrates the opening of the first film]].

* Well, Azog ''was'' a powerful orc warlord... but Sauron can control plenty of orcs without needing middle-men, so there still doesn't seem much point. Besides, all undead in both the books and movies--the Nazgûl, the Barrow-wights, the Oathbreakers, the phantoms of the Dead Marshes--are very obviously spectral beings that are no longer part of the living world. Azog in the movie looks and acts pretty much like he did in the flashback, except with a metal claw to replace his missing forearm. There's only one person in the entire world of Arda that can bring the dead ''totally'' back to life, and that's Mandos, the honest-to-Eru ''god'' of fate and death, and even he's not supposed to (Beren and Lúthien were the ''only'' people he broke the rules for). If Sauron could bring his minions totally back to life, Middle-earth would be in his pocket already, Ring or no Ring.

* Gandalf mentioned that he fears that Smaug may help Sauron if he ever returns. There is a possible different scenario. What if Smaug and Sauron fought each other? Let's see, Bilbo will be there, in the Dragon's lair, with the One Ring. He doesn't know it, he thinks it's just a common magic ring, but it's The One. Smaug may easily kill Bilbo if he wanted to, but the Ring would stay intact among Bilbo's ashes, and call for Smaug. And unlike a mere hobbit named Sméagol, Smaug can take full advantage of the ring, and became a new Dark Lord. With only his base power as a Dragon he could not defy Morgoth, but with the power of the Ring, he ''can'' defy Sauron. Sauron would eventually go after him (Gollum would escape, seek the ring, got captured and tortured, etc), but this time the trail would not lead to a peaceful village in the countryside, but to the lair of a powerful dragon. And what then? All the forces Sauron had shown to have at his disposal (riders, orcs, trolls, siege weapons, Oliphants, even the giant spider) may be useful to spread terror among tiny houses in the countryside, or even a fortified city, but do not stand a chance against a dragon. That army of orcs that fills the horizon and left Denethor full of despair... Smaug can get rid of it in just a single attack (or perhaps a second and third one, to get rid of any survivors, but no more than that). And of course, Smaug would not die as in the book [[spoiler:The bird that tells the men of Dale to point to Smaug's single weak point is unlikely to help soldiers who are as evil as Smaug]]. Smaug vs. Sauron. Who would win? And what would the good guys do about that fight?
** Smaug only has that one weak point, and while Sauron and his forces may not ''know'' about it, it seems to me it would only be a matter of time before some Orc got lucky and hit him there. Between armies of orcs, Uruk-Hai, Olyphants, Nazgûl, Fell Beasts, Trolls, Wargs, Spiders and whatever else Sauron could come up with, they'd eventually nail Smaug though with heavy casualties. Sauron, on the other hand, ''cannot'' be killed without destroying the Ring. The good guys would probably be totally screwed as the battle would annihilate Middle-Earth and there'd be very little they could do about it. I guess they might try to kill Smaug first and take the ring, because once Sauron had it they'd just be totally boned. Smaug on the other hand would probably just be happy if he could keep the ring and nap in a giant pile of gold, so if he did somehow win it would be less damaging to the world.
** Would Smaug really even ''want'' to be a Dark Lord? The only dragon in Middle-earth history who really tried to set himself up as an EvilOverlord was Glaurung, after all--most dragons seem more interested in possession and destruction for their own sakes than domination, and Smaug never gave any indication of being an exception (after all, he routed out ''all'' the dwarves and men in the vicinity of Erebor and made no move to gather orcs, corrupt men and dwarves, or any other form of minion). If Smaug realized what the Ring was, I think he'd be more likely to keep it as a trophy than use it as a weapon.

** [[WordOfGod Tolkien himself discussed the issue]] in the foreword to Literature/TheLordOfTheRings books: what if another Maia (for him it was Saruman) either got the One Ring or somehow managed to build himself a Great Ring to confront Sauron. His given answer was this would ignite a great war, between two major powers ruling over hosts of Men, Orcs and other creatures, which would destroy Middle-Earth from end to end, and the first race to go would be the Hobbits --''"both sides would have hated and despised the Hobbits, so they were not going to survive even as slaves"''. He was never going to write anything on this line, as the Hobbits were central to the plot, meaning to show how lesser beings not skilled in magic or combat may defeat a great power.
** Also, if Smaug were to reduce Bilbo to a pile of ash while he had the Ring, he'd destroy the Ring as well. Dragon fire is mentioned in "Fellowship of the Ring" to be the other thing that would destroy the One Ring. But then, with Sauron gone, the rest of the theory could proceed.

** One thing is sure: Sauron would not be able to "buy" the Ring. First, because of the unlimited ambition of Dragons: if the Ring is the sole thing that Sauron wants more than anything in the world, so much that he would give him a second treasure as the one of Erebor, then he can duplicate the pay... and if he can duplicate it, he can quadruplicate it... and so on, and so on, until we get to the point "Mordor does not have that amount of gold", end of negotiations. And second... it's the ring. It's the "precious". In all the history of Middle Earth, only the selfless Bilbo was capable to let it go. Smaug would NEVER let it go. Perhaps he's not interested in being a Dark Lord for commanding others, but he would certainly upgrade himself to a Dark Lord level of power in order to fight Sauron and keep the ring. Just think, what would Gollum do, if he was powerful as a dragon?

* In both stories, Saruman gives a strong disapproval of his fellow wizards' tastes, Gandalf of pipeweed and Radegast of mushrooms. The somewhat odd thought that popped into this troper's head is, "What if the use of such substances fogs any attempt to control a wizard?" Saruman may be a teetotaler, but what if his disapproval is a subtle sign of Sauron's control over him rather than his own personal distaste? He complains of their usage, not just because they're dirty habits, but because of his puppeteer's inability to manipulate them as well?
** There is one ''minor'' hint partly against this: wonder why Pippin and Merry found pipeweed in Orthanc (''high-quality'' pipeweed, at that)? Tolkien intended to hint that Saruman has picked up the habit (indulging it in secret), as part of a tendency to secretly envy Gandalf and just generally keeping a close look on the Hobbits Gandalf so adore.
** Jossed. Saruman did not treat Radagast that way because of being evil, but just because of being a dick.

* I've been wondering what role exactly Bolg will play in the film trilogy--considering that in this version Azog survived the War of the Dwarves and Orcs and still carries a vendetta against the line of Durin, it might be easy to assume father and son became one CompositeCharacter, but Bolg has been cast and his design shown. I see two options:
** Azog will lead the orcs at the Battle of Five Armies, with Bolg acting as his father's [[TheDragon Dragon]], or...
** Azog dies in the second movie (most likely he'll pursue the company into Mirkwood and be killed there, be it by the dwarves, the spiders, or the wood-elves) leaving Bolg to take up the blood feud in the third movie, leading the orcs at the Battle of Five Armies.
** One possibility for Azog's extended survival is that he might get killed by Dáin Ironfoot in the Battle of the Five Armies, and this gives him the claim to the throne in the end. It would be a neat way to avoid making the character look like an ursuper who just takes over with his army while the Company is quietly pushed aside.
*** Why usurper? Dáin is the next surviving male relative in line for kingship.

* As we know, in the book Gandalf appears to Erebor seemingly out of nowhere to everybody's surprise, including the reader's. There has to be a way to emulate this effect in the film, but since we get to actually see his side of the story, it will be more difficult to arrange. This is how I predict it will happen: Gandalf will learn, most likely through Radagast, that elves, men and dwarves are about to go to war against each other right over Smaug's gold just as the White Council is getting ready to storm Dol Guldur. He is faced with a dilemma of whether it is more important to defeat a force of evil, or save essentially good people from falling to evil in the first place. Saruman will be openly contemptuous to fools who would fight each other when the true Enemy is at their doorstep, Elrond will grimly accept that there is nothing that they can do, Radagast will be hesitant and unwilling to voice an opinion and Galadriel will remind Gandalf to follow his own heart, but be aware that she must stay to fight the Necromancer. We will be left with Gandalf standing indecisive and lost between the choice to either fight evil or save innocents. Only when he appears to Bilbo seemingly out of nowhere, we will know for sure what choice he made in the end.
** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

** If this movies followed the timeline of the books, this may have been possible. However, in the movie timeline, Frodo leaves the Shire only a couples weeks or months after Bilbo leaves. Also, the Fellowship doesn't appear to stay in Rivendell for very long. If Balin appeared to escort Bilbo to Rivendell after his birthday party, this would only give him a few months to return to Moria, set himself up as the Lord thereof, and then have the entire party die from the Watcher in the Water, the Balrog, and the orcs. Possible, but unlikely.

** [[spoiler: Confirmed, but only in the extended edition]].

** In the live sneak preview of the second movie that was shown on the internet, Gandalf and Radashast appear to be exploring Dol Guldur and they say the crypts or tombs appear to have been opened from the inside. I suspect that the Five armies will be: 1) Dwarves; 2) Men; 3) Elves; 4) Orcs & Wargs led by Azog or Bolg; and 5) the Necromancer's army including nine Ringwraiths, numerous undead men (perhaps Wights), bats, maybe some spiders, and possibly the Necromancer himself.
*** The Nazgûl can't be present anywhere near the Battle. They would sense the Ring as soon as Bilbo puts it on, which would lead to a very different plot than the [=LOTR=]-trilogy would eventually have. Also, having the Necromancer take part in the battle in person would contradict the statement in the ''Fellowship'' that he can't yet take a physical form. I am sure that they will retcon the storm and the flocks of bats as his doing, but I doubt that's enough to count as an army. It's within the realm of possibility that we'll have both the goblins avenging their King and the troops of Dol Guldur lead by Azog to make the two evil armies, though.

** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

** The 7 Dwarf rings were never able to control the Dwarves, not could it incite them to take any actions. All the rings were able to do was stir up a lust for treasure in their hearts. This would explain Thorin's actions prior to the Battle, but it shouldn't influence him before that.
** Actually the last Dwarven ring is shown in the Extended Edition of Desolation. Thrain had it but when he was defeated by Azog it is implied the Orc cut his [[{{Fingore}} forefinger]] off to get it.

** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

** [[spoiler: Confirmed]].

** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

** [[spoiler: Mostly-confirmed. Bilbo doesn't take anything with him from Erebor, but he does carry the troll-chest when he returns to the Shire]].

** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

** [[spoiler: Jossed. Thorin doesn't directly try to provoke war, and none of the dwarves are aware that Bilbo has the Arkenstone]].

** Note that this isn't the specific "One Ring world". It's the "unseen" world common to all spirits and ghosts of Arda; Elves (especially resurrectees such as Glorfindel) can see this world and fight in it, too. During ''The Hobbit'', this world was relatively calm, and when Sauron was actively struggling to rebuild his empire, it became dark and stormy. That's what Tolkien means when he writes about the shadow falling on Middle-Earth yada yada.

** [[spoiler: Jossed]].

[[WMG: Peter Jackson's carrot-chewing {{Cameo}} character in Bree is descended from Numenorians.]]

All Hoe Yay aside...think about it, Thorin knows the dwarves in his company are all going to stay around, and why should he think Bilbo would not do the same? Even Bilbo in LOTR says he misses the mountains and adventures he had, maybe offscreen he mentions this to Thorin, that he likes these things, so Thorin, under his madness thinks Bilbo is going to stay forever in Erebor with them (plus in the scene when Fili and Kili arrive in the mountain, Thorin throws a jewel to Fili before welcoming them to the mountain ) what does it matter giving a piece of treasure to another treasure that won't leave his side? He speaks warmly to his nephews and Bilbo in both scenes (yes the shirt is most likely worth more than the jewel to US as the audience, but to Thorin himself, it's all equal ("I will not part with a SINGLE coin" come to mind here? )
[[WMG: Bombur's hair turned white in the novel, the way it did in the Rankin-Bass Movie]]
In the Rankin-Bass movie Bombur starts out with a healthy amount of black hair, and sometime before being caught by the wood elves, he is next scene with white hair. This is NOT an error, he is consistently animated with white hair in the second part of the movie. As someone who doesn't know a lot about animation, I am willing to guess that this may have been a way of saving money (less black ink?) but it makes sense if you consider that Bombur's hair going from pitch black to pure white / grayish white has a valid in-story reason too. In the movie it's toned down quite a bit, but him being attacked by a spider is well focused on, so maybe a combination of the trauma and spider poison shocked the color straight out of his hair. Now, in the book, at around that same time, Bombur went through something far worse then a spider bite. His mental health, physical health, and emotional health took a huge toll.
It's after this that the novel begins referring to him as "old" something it never did in the first half, and, well, white hair is generally associated with older folks...

All Hoe Yay aside...think about it, Thorin knows the dwarves in his company are all going to stay around, and why should he think Bilbo would not do the same? Even Bilbo in LOTR says he misses the mountains and adventures he had, maybe offscreen he mentions this to Thorin, that he likes these things, so Thorin, under his madness thinks Bilbo is going to stay forever in Erebor with them (plus in the scene when Fili and Kili arrive in the mountain, Thorin throws a jewel to Fili before welcoming them to the mountain ) what does it matter giving a piece of treasure to another treasure that won't leave his side? He speaks warmly to his nephews and Bilbo in both scenes (yes the shirt is most likely worth more than the jewel to US as the audience, but to Thorin himself, it's all equal ("I will not part with a SINGLE coin" come to mind here? )

** If she were Celebrimbor's granddaughter (daughter wouldn't work time-wise), that would ''completely'' explain why she is gets emotionally involved with Dwarves with such ease. Taking WMG UpToEleven, if Narvi was female and she and Celebrimbor were a couple and not just collaborators on the Doors of Durin, she could be Tauriel's grandmother, which would explain Tauriel's short stature. And her strength—note that her bow, minus decoration, is essentially a ''scaled up'' Mongol recurve bow, and Mongol bows were already at least equal in power to a longbow (ridiculously more powerful, if you believe some of the people on the internet).

Thorin and Bilbo seem to be developing an OddFriendship and Bilbo may even act as Thorin's [[MoralityPet conscience]] during the initial conflict between the dwarves and the men of Dale. Bilbo giving the Arkenstone to the men of Dale and the elves of Mirkwood will then be a difficult decision for him to make (also his hesitation and regret may smooth over any MoralDissonance found in the original text) and Thorin's fury will be directed at Bilbo more for his betrayal of their friendship than of the loss of the Arkenstone.

Well, ''Film/TheHobbit'' more humorous than its predecessor, so how could Peter Jackson refuse to bring up [[UnfortunateNames Gróin the Dwarf]]?

** If this proposal is used, it would point that Thorin and Azog (or the orc they think is Azog) are NotSoDifferent (both would be driven by revenge of what had happened to their parents). It would help to provide more depth to the work, rather than the trivial "good vs. evil".

*** This, essentially. Had the orc leader been established as Bolg from the beginning, then drawing a NotSoDifferent comparison between him and Thorin might have had merit; as it is, what with him repeatedly and emphatically being identified as Azog (he looks ''just like'' Azog in the flashback, the Great Goblin says he's Azog, Thorin calls him Azog when he sees him) this kind of bait and switch would serve no purpose and unnecessarily complicate a villain with a straight-up revenge motivation. And again, Azog in the flashback lost his hand. Azog in the present is missing his hand. Why would Azog's son, Bolg or otherwise, have incurred an ''identical injury''?

[[WMG: There will be a ''SherlockHolmes'' ShoutOut.]]

It's a very popular fan-theory, given [[spoiler: that massive facial scar and an explicitly clouded-over eye]] while he was talking to Thorin. Lee Pace also plays him as blind, so this is [[WordOfSaintPaul confirmed by the actor's choices, if not a statement by Jackson himself]]. Fans have also noticed he has a very wide-eyed, unfocused expression and never really makes eye-contact with anyone. It also {{RetCon}}s Legolas' tendency to state the obvious about his surroundings--of course he'd talk about things that people can already see if [[TheCaretaker he needed to do it for his vision-impaired father.]] ([[FanFicFuel Fan-art/fic abounds]] with blind-Thranduil and Legolas.)

Like Franchise/StarWars before it, Film/TheLordOfTheRings will be updated to match some of ''The Hobbit'' or to include information that is relevant to ''The Hobbit'' (or not relevant) but was left out of the original films for the sake of time or the understanding of the viewer. This may or may not be hated by the fans of movies because it may or may not be more faithful to the books. Submit guesses of future changes here:

[[WMG: '''The Hobbit: There And Back Again''' will end very similar to [[Literature/TheHobbit the original book]] and ''[[Film/TheLordOfTheRings Fellowship Of The Ring]]'']]

Peter Jackson wanted her to appear in Film/TheLordOfTheRings so this is his last chance to cast her in Middle-Earth while also adding more recognizable female characters. She could play Dís, mother of Fíli and Kíli, sister of Thorin [[spoiler: and appear at the end for their funerals in Erebor]]. Or she'll play some random Elf.

The movie will FlashForward to old Bilbo leaving Middle-Earth for the Grey Havens and falling asleep on the way there. He wakes up young again to see everyone from the Company alive and young as well. They all welcome him happily. The last person to greet him is Thorin and they smile at each other, finally reunited as friends. Cue ClosingCredits. Also works as a nice MythologyGag to Frodo's reunion with the Fellowship in Gondor in [[Film/LordOfTheRings Return of the King]].

Per some of Tolkien's notes in ''Morgoth's Ring'', "boldog" was a term (or title) for minor evil Maiar inhabiting the bodies of orc-chieftains. Azog being such a creature would explain why he (and his son) are so much more powerful than regular orcs, his willingness to backtalk Sauron and put his own agenda above Sauron's will (being a boldog wouldn't make him Sauron's equal, but would make him a lot closer to that than any ordinary orc could dream of being) and possibly even his unusual appearance.

It's a very popular fan-theory, given [[spoiler: that massive facial scar and an explicitly clouded-over eye]] while he was talking to Thorin. Lee Pace also plays him as blind, so this is [[WordOfSaintPaul confirmed by the actor's choices, if not a statement by Jackson himself]]. Fans have also noticed he has a very wide-eyed, unfocused expression and never really makes eye-contact with anyone. It also {{RetCon}}s Legolas' tendency to [[CaptainObvious state the obvious]] about his surroundings--of course he'd talk about things that people can already see if [[TheCaretaker he needed to do it for his vision-impaired father.]] ([[FanFicFuel Fan-art/fic abounds]] with blind-Thranduil and Legolas.)

Peter Jackson wanted her to appear in [[TheLordOfTheRings The Lord of the Rings]] so this is his last chance to cast her in Middle-Earth while also adding more recognizable female characters. She could play Dís, mother of Fíli and Kíli, sister of Thorin [[spoiler: and appear at the end for their funerals in Erebor]]. Or she'll play some random Elf.

Like {{Franchise/StarWars}} before it, TheLordOfTheRings will be updated to match some of ''The Hobbit'' or to include information that is relevant to ''The Hobbit'' (or not relevant) but was left out of the original films for the sake of time or the understanding of the viewer. This may or may not be hated by the fans of movies because it may or may not be more faithful to the books. Submit guesses of future changes here:

** [[WordOfGod Tolkien himself discussed the issue]] in the foreword to the LordOfTheRings books: what if another Maia (for him it was Saruman) either got the One Ring or somehow managed to build himself a Great Ring to confront Sauron. His given answer was this would ignite a great war, between two major powers ruling over hosts of Men, Orcs and other creatures, which would destroy Middle-Earth from end to end, and the first race to go would be the Hobbits --''"both sides would have hated and despised the Hobbits, so they were not going to survive even as slaves"''. He was never going to write anything on this line, as the Hobbits were central to the plot, meaning to show how lesser beings not skilled in magic or combat may defeat a great power.

[[WMG: '''The Hobbit: There And Back Again''' will end very similar to [[Literature/TheHobbit the original book]] and ''[[LordOfTheRings Fellowship Of The Ring]]'']]

* At the very least, Howard Shore should do a musical suite for the Silm. I'd ''love'' to hear the [[AwesomeMusic leitmotifs he'd come up with]] for Valinor, Doriath, Beren and Lúthien, Melkor[=/=]Morgoth, etc.

It is said that Morgoth raised the Misty Mountains to hinder Orome's passage east and corrupt the elves. It is likely that he left some sentries there to stop a titanic horseman. Now, the giants look more like automatons than sentient beings, which corresponds well with the way the dwarves looked when Aule created them before Eru granted them life.

It would be a good way to tie the second movie to the first without losing any momentum while still maintaining the spirit of the first. For bonus points, [[FunnyMoments one of the hobbit children will ask]] [[FridgeLogic why they didn't just fly the eagles all the way to the Lonely Mountain]].