- I don't agree with this deletion one bit. There is no FF character more base breaking than Tidus. Sounds like a grumpy Tidus fanboy if you ask me.
- Base-Breaking Character: Spend five minutes on a Final Fantasy forum and you will quickly discover that Tidus is one of the most polarizing main protagonists in the franchise's history. The commonly cited reasons include: James Arnold Taylor's whiny voice, his daddy issues, his Hot-Blooded characterization which comes across as stupid, and the tackiness of his design in general. However, fans of the character either don't mind the voice/enjoy the contrast between early and late Tidus, find his anger toward Jecht both understandable and relatable, and note that he matures as the story goes on. He got over his hatred of his father in the original game, and honored him in the CD Drama by wearing his bandana. His romance with Yuna is likewise considered either one of the best (with even her English voice actress acknowledging the necessity of the romance plot) or worst in the series. Finally, his Heroic Sacrifice is either a sad moment or a cathartic Take That, Scrappy! for his haters.
- Viewer Gender Confusion: You're probably going to have a hard time figuring out that Valefor's actually female unless you revisit her in Besaid Temple's Chamber of the Fayth.
I deleted this because Valefor's aeon form clearly has breasts. I find it hard to believe that anyone could confuse her as being anything else.
Curly Goddess
Recently, Fan-Preferred Couple examples were removed under the justification of Tidus/Yuna supposedly being more popular.
But, I'm pretty damn sure that Tidus/Rikku has been the most popular ship. At least in Western audiences.
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The same amount of evidence that was offered to add or remove the examples in the first place.
I'm not sure we'll find hard numbers for a game this old, unfortunately.
In that case I vote that we re-add it. Because the person who removed has no evidence either. Although imo, I would say that Auron/Rikku seems to be the pairing i've seen more of over the years. That scene where he stares into her eyes has spawned about 100,000 fanfics.
Hoping not to open a can of worms - some wording adjustments suggestions for this entry, mostly just trimming it down and making it flower better while not changing the key points, though adding that Jecht's abuse was done with intent of Tidus fighting back and proving him wrong.
- Family-Unfriendly Aesop: Tidus hates Jecht for being an emotionally abusive father who repeatedly insulted and neglected him. However, both other characters, Tidus himself, and Word of God, characterize Tidus as immature, whiny, and selfish, especially as a child. Other characters, though superficially critical of Jecht's actions, emphasize the importance of Tidus recognizing Jecht was a Jerk with a Heart of Gold who loved his son but didn't know how to express it. In the present, Tidus is a socially well-adjusted young sports star who is loved by Zanarkand's people and is implied to be popular with women, and he turned out like this because of Jecht's abuse, becoming a great blitzball player because he wanted to prove Jecht's criticisms wrong. It's also shown that this was what Jecht wanted for him, and Tidus eventually does forgive him. While no character comes directly out and says it, the narrative of the game puts forward the idea that Jecht's abuse is acceptable — Tidus was a problem child and Jecht's parenting made Tidus into the man he is today, so Tidus should just get over it and focus on the intent behind the abuse instead of the abuse itself.
I think the edit is fine. It's not radically different enough to cause any problems, IMO.
EDIT: Now that I read it though "emphasize the importance" sounds like it's AGREEING with the characters' criticisms of Tidus. I'd just say "insist" and call it a day.
Edited by NubianSatyress
Again, words like "importance" and "recognize" imply (in my opinion) that this is the "correct" perspective with which to view Jecht's actions. Whether intentional or not, it's unduly siding with those urging Tidus to forgive Jecht. We want to make our language as neutral as possible to put distance between what the characters believe and what objectively happened.
Fair and agreed. What about then "encorage Tidus to see Jecht as a Jerk with a Heart of Gold", etc.
For the Values Dissonance entry, agreed that Jecht's Draco in Leather Pants status plays a factor, but in both points, not just the abuse. What about this?
"In the Western world, filial piety isn't really a thing and few would fault Tidus for speaking against a bad father, and child abuse is generally thought of as physical harm, not emotional. That aside, Western fans see Jecht as a Draco in Leather Pants, revering the Rated M for Manly aura he projects and finding it more appealing than the Bishōnen design of Tidus. The result is that Tidus' complaints about Jecht's parenting are often marginalized as Wangst and "daddy issues", and Jecht's treatment of Tidus is deserved for him being so whiny and effeminate.
Curly Goddess
Tropers.boatman8 changed the following trope:
- Spend five minutes on a Final Fantasy forum and you will quickly discover that Tidus is one of the most polarizing main protagonists in the franchise's history. The commonly cited reasons include: His whiny voice, his daddy issues, his Idiot Hero characterization that comes across as rather self-centered, and the ridiculousness of his design in general. However, fans of the character either don't mind the voice or like the contrast between early and late Tidus, find his anger at Jecht both understandable and relatable, and feel that he grows and matures as the story goes on. His romance with Yuna is often considered either one of the best in the series or one of the worst; Yuna is far more universally belovednote , so detractors usually put the blame squarely on Tidus. Finally, Tidus's Heroic Sacrifice and (possible) resurrection is either the final nail in the coffin or a well-deserved ending for players who like the character. There is also the fact Tidus has been noted to have surprising Character Development, getting over his hatred over his father in the game, and honoring him in the cdrama by wearing his bandana. Despite some questionable actions Yuna makes in said CD drama, Tidus decides to keep his promise when rather than becoming angered or annoyed by her.
To:
- Tidus is generally well liked for his friendly personality (contrasting previous angsty characters), his relationships with his friends and most notably Yuna who are noted to be one of the best couples in gaming in general. On the other hand, some hate Taylor's voice acting as him, his Daddy Issues and his ridiculous design by Nomura.
This is a pretty unbalanced oversimplification of the actual debate over Tidus's character. The first part is basically just gushing and trying to pass off an opinion as fact. The second part almost begrudgingly glosses over a few reasons he's disliked.
My opinion is that the original version should be restored.
Edited by NubianSatyress Hide / Show Replies
Tidus' base-breaking status is pretty well-known in the general video game community. The fact the rewrite turned it into essentially "most everyone thinks he's great, except for these few people who may have these minor quibbles that aren't his fault" is ridiculous.
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This definitely comes across as a triggered Tidus fan. Which, ironically enough, is actually perfect evidence that Tidus is a base breaking character. Fallen on their own petard, indeed.
Also throwing this up for consideration to re-add, the justification for removing it was flimsy.
- Family-Unfriendly Aesop: Jecht's abuse toward Tidus is criticized throughout the game, and it's clear Tidus hates his father for how he treated Tidus as a kid. However, Tidus is characterized as being immature, whiny and selfish (by his own admittance and through Word of God). Plus, look at Tidus now — aside from his hatred of Jecht, he's a socially well-adjusted young sports star who is loved by Zanarkand's people and is implied to be rather successful with women. It's also implied, and outright stated in Dissidia Final Fantasy, that Tidus grew up like this not in spite of, but because of Jecht's treatment; he followed in his father's footsteps as a great blitzball player precisely because he wanted to prove Jecht's criticisms wrong. And on that "hates his father" front, a major part of Tidus' character growth is coming to terms with how Jecht treated him and seeing it as a form of love he otherwise didn't properly know how to express. A player could interpret the game as saying Jecht was right for being an abusive parent, because Tidus was a problem child, Jecht's treatment of him resulted in him growing up to be a fine young man, and Tidus should just get over it because he meant well.
So as I said in Ask The Tropers, I think it might be Right for the Wrong Reasons.
Examples Are Not Arguable and, as-written, it's only "arguably" an Aesop. Something that's not an Aesop can't be a Family-Unfriendly Aesop. Haven't played the game so I can't comment on whether it's valid, but if the game isn't pushing an Aesop there, then it cannot apply. It might go under Accidental Aesop but if it's not an actual Aesop, if the game isn't trying to make a statement, then it's not an example and the writeup seems to indicate this to be the case.
At the very least it needs a rewrite to make it clear.
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The only part that’s even close to being “arguable” is the interpretation part, but that’s exactly the issue. There is NO question that Tidus forgiving his father’s abuse was the aesop of his character arc.
The story is wishy washy on its condemnation of Jecht’s actions. Characters scoff and criticize him seemingly because that’swhat good guys are “supposed” to do, but at the same time there’s nothing but endless apologia for them.
“Yeah what Jecht did was wrong but hey he meant well and it worked, and he was really a nice guy when you get to know him. So really why don’t you grow up and see your dad as a hero like the rest of us?”
Edited by NubianSatyress
Peachy. Then rewrite the entry to say that, because as-written it isn't an example and violates Examples Are Not Arguable. Based on your response it seems like the Aesop here is "you should forgive your abuser" which is frankly not even something I picked up from the existing writeup.
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The main issue is that the story wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to, on the surface, condemn Jecht's actions as being harsh and traumatic for his son...but at the same time, commend his actions for being well-intentioned and, ultimately, successful. The story is covertly a reinforcement of East Asian filial piety, because even though Jecht was an asshole to his son, Tidus is the one more heavily criticized for outwardly hating him, which is a massive no-no in Japanese culture.
But anyway, here's my first attempt to try and sort this out:
- Family-Unfriendly Aesop: Tidus hates his father for the emotional abuse he suffered as a kid, but he's characterized as being immature, whiny and selfish (by how other characters criticize him, by his own admittance, and through Word of God). Other characters, though superficially critical of Jecht's actions, place more impetus on Tidus to forgive him while Jecht is revered everywhere as a hero. Plus, look at Tidus now — aside from his hatred of Jecht, he's a socially well-adjusted young sports star who is loved by Zanarkand's people and is implied to be rather successful with women. It's implied in this game, and outright stated in Dissidia Final Fantasy, that Tidus grew up like this not in spite of, but because of Jecht's treatment; he followed in his father's footsteps as a great blitzball player precisely because he wanted to prove Jecht's criticisms wrong. As such, a major part of Tidus' character growth is coming to terms with how Jecht treated him and seeing it as a form of misunderstood Tough Love which Jecht didn't properly know how to express. No character comes directly out and says it, but the entire narrative of the game is enforcing the idea that Jecht was right for being an abusive parent because Tidus was a problem child, Jecht's treatment of him resulted in him growing up to be a fine young man, Jecht was otherwise heroic and dependable aside from his parenting, and that Tidus should just get over it because his father meant well.
Anyone else wanna weigh in on this?
If there's no issue, I'll re-add with a note to come to discussion before edit/removal.
I changed a bit the extreme hated in Tidus' basebreaker. The guy is a fish out of the water which is why he needs often mentions by Lulu to understand terms about Spira. The more the story progresses, the less he needs to learn. Especially in the characters cds during his monologue as well as the audio drama. In Beyond FF, the staff explained they created Tidus to be an outsider of Spira in order for the player learn about the world thanks to him.
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That change makes zero sense, though.
No one dislikes Tidus simply because he’s a Fish out of Water, which is what that particular sentence is explaining. They dislike him because he’s portrayed as headstrong and immature. The mistakes he makes have nothing to do with being a fish out of water—for instance, people repeatedly tell him NOT to bring up Zanarkand or other things, and then he just forgets and does it anyway.
I think a good compromise would be to say he’s Hot-Blooded. But the part about him requiring explanation for the audience needs to go. It’s got nothing to do with him being a base breaker.
I don't wanna turn it into a big rant on the page, but I'll sum up here why I feel FFX is an Idiot Plot.
As said on the page, Yevon openly engages in hypocrisy regarding the usage of Machina and they encourage a martyrdom culture. However, the citizens of Spira continue to worship and follow them, save for the Al Bhed. It seems to be common belief, if not acknowledged fact, that Sin cannot be permanently destroyed, but the people continue to worship. In 1000 years of Yevon, how is it that Auron is the only Guardian to become disillusioned when he sees what his comrades sacrificed themselves to achieve is a lie? How is it no one else questioned machina being forbidden when Yevon uses it profusely? And aside from Gameplay and Story Segregation, is there any given reason why Tidus and his friends are able to harm Sin so greatly it crashlands, while Operation Mi'hen was a total failure? Because that begs the question how Sin has endured for so long, the great strength needed to do it aside, killing it is comparatively simple, knock it around until it crashes, then climb inside and kill the spirit of Yu Yevon.
The main reason I think FFX qualifies in the end, everyone in Spira is literally a hopeless fool. All it would take is a few questions and some logical thought to realize Yevon is a lie and to try and figure out the better way that Tidus and his friends found, so how come it took 1000 years for it to happen?
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- Yevon openly engages in hypocrisy regarding the usage of Machina
No, they don't. It's a secret about their use of Machina, as evidenced by the whole party being surprised when they find the Machina.
- It seems to be common belief, if not acknowledged fact, that Sin cannot be permanently destroyed, but the people continue to worship.
No, it's not? It's common belief that if people repent, Sin will be destroyed.
- In 1000 years of Yevon, how is it that Auron is the only Guardian to become disillusioned when he sees what his comrades sacrificed themselves to achieve is a lie?
Who says he's the only one? Maybe the others did but then didn't make it down the mountain. Maybe, as is pointed out, the others thought giving the world a few years of peace was worth it.
- How is it no one else questioned machina being forbidden when Yevon uses it profusely?
Again, they don't.
- And aside from Gameplay and Story Segregation, is there any given reason why Tidus and his friends are able to harm Sin so greatly it crashlands, while Operation Mi'hen was a total failure?
Because Sin is holding back deliberately on account of Tidus. The only reason the party has any chance at all to win is because Sin is Tidus' father.
As I said in the edit reasons, you seem to be assuming that everyone on Spira has the same information as the party has, complete with hindsight that only comes afterward.
"It's a secret about their use of Machina, as evidenced by the whole party being surprised when they find the Machina." - yes, but how many Summoners in history have gone through Bevelle, and none of them question the place looking like a scene from Tron? There is also their aid to Operation Mi'hen, the Blitzball stadium, use of spheres in all their temples.
"It's common belief that if people repent, Sin will be destroyed." - true, but, not to support mine or yours, it seems to vary from character to character.
"Who says he's the only one? Maybe the others did but then didn't make it down the mountain. Maybe, as is pointed out, the others thought giving the world a few years of peace was worth it." - perhaps some did yes, but all of them? The Calm Braska brought lasted about 10 years, was it? Not even, we don't know how active Sin was before the start of the game. I won't presume every Calm lasts the same amount of time, but if we ballpark at each being a decade or so, that's still just under 100 High Summoners with Guardians that have gone on the pilgrimage, I know Yuna's pack is unusually large but it seems normal for Summoners to have one or two Guardians. And this does not count who-knows-how-many Summoners that go on the pilgrimage and just don't make it to Yunalesca first but still see the things the party sees up to her. And all of them either went along with things like normal after meeting Yunalesca or didn't live to tell about it? None of the Summoners, who must have defeated Sin publicly to be known and revered, told the people what was going on? And no one else like Auron was pissed off enough about it to come back either? I find that statistically unlikely.
"Because Sin is holding back deliberately on account of Tidus. The only reason the party has any chance at all to win is because Sin is Tidus' father." - okay I'll buy that, but is Jecht really the only Final Aeon vessel in 1000 years to be able to resist Sin's instincts? And even so, Operation Mi'hen had a lot more of much bigger artillery than Tidus and his crew.
My issue is not simply that everyone in Spira knows the same stuff the party knows, they don't. But if they tried thinking about the things Yevon tells them and asks some questions, it should be obvious to them that Yevon is bullshitting them. And yet it seems that until the party came around, everyone was content to continue blindly believing, if they had questions or doubts they kept their mouths shut about them, and if they found out that Yevon's teachings were lies they continued to follow them out of false hope. That's why I say, it seems Spira is populated by fools that are literally hopeless.
Edited by 216.99.32.45
Operation Mi'ihen is acknowledged as them doing something extremely out of the ordinary, and it was the Al Behd's machina. The stadium is also acknowledged as something out of the ordinary, they consider the use of Machina there worth it to give the people something to cheer for. The Spheres aren't machina, or at least not the kind of Machina they care about. And who says every Summoner sees the inside of Bevelle, or recognizes it as machina?
So it varies from character to character. And? That doesn't make it an Idiot Plot just because everyone doesn't come to exactly the right conclusion.
Braska's Calm wasn't ten years long, it was ten years ago. Nor is it ever said that Sin is defeated anywhere near that frequently. The vast, vast, vast majority of Summoners never, ever come close to actually confronting Sin. In short? There's a small handful of Summoners over the years who've actually faced Sin, not the hundreds you seem to think. And, yeah, none of the summoners told people after on account of being, you know, dead.
Yes? Because that's kind of the whole point of the game's climax, that the Fayth deliberately set it up that way?
The reason people don't try thinking about the things Yevon tells them is that they're too busy being scared shitless by Sin and thinking that anything they do wrong is going to call the big space fish like a beacon.
