Main Vile Villain Saccharine Show Discussion

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10:42:43 AM Apr 3rd 2016
Half of the Western Animation section is not saccharine by any means, young target audience aside.
06:03:47 AM Oct 14th 2015
Hey, I want to add a Star Vs entry but my entry's a little lacking. Any help with this:
  • "Star Vs.The Forces Of Evil" is a lighthearted show with puppies and rainbows but then there's Toffee, a businessman that means serious business. Made even more jarring by the split second of madness he has in the season finale when he wins."
01:31:59 AM Oct 15th 2015
That has a lot of red links in it that need fixing. It also does not explain how Toffee is vile.
04:18:21 AM Apr 6th 2015
All right, so I raised this issue once before, but it was under an already-existing topic and so I doubt anyone saw it. I'm starting to have an issue with the My Little Pony examples. We have a lot of MLP villains here. At the time of this writing, there are a total of 13 (or 12 if you group G1 Tirek and G4 Tirek together). I'm sure that they're all incredibly vile. However, we have to ask a question here: If there are a dozen or more vile villains in a show, then how on earth is that considered to be a saccharine show? I feel as though it's not right to count MLP as that type of show.

They've had so many vile villains that it isn't even a surprise anymore when one shows up. I mean, let's be honest: Was anyone watching this week's episode honestly shocked that Starlight Glimmer is a scary threat? I sure wasn't. Heck, if she wasn't that big of a threat, it would have been a huge letdown. This trope is meant for vile villains to show up in places that they aren't expected. And I think MLP has spent enough time now away from its roots as a "little girl's show about magic ponies having tea parties" that it is now a show that I fully expect vile villains in.

However, this could just be my point of view, so I turn to all of you. Do you think that My Little Pony deserves the title of "Saccharine Show"?
04:29:33 AM Apr 6th 2015
edited by SatoshiBakura
Dear god, what is with you guys? There has only been at least one vile villain per season in the Fi M and a few per the other incarnations. When those villains aren't there, the show is perfectly saccharine. Are you trying to shoehorn "OMG too spooky!" into something as harmless as MLP? It doesn't matter if you expect vile villains in it. What matters is that if the villain isn't there, then the show is very sweet. So yes, MLP is a saccharine show.
04:47:44 AM Apr 6th 2015
I agree. Whether a show is saccharine or not is an aggregate function, even a few vile villains don't turn the show nasty if the rest is still saccharine.
08:08:49 PM Sep 25th 2014
edited by manhandled
Vile Villain...

It just isn't right. Thanks alot for ruining another facet of my perception of things.

What good does it serve, other than scaring the scarring the crap out of kids? Or is that what the exaggerated version would do?

TSDR: 2vile4me?
09:44:28 AM May 18th 2014
edited by
Can we change the picture back to Kirby, that series is so perfect for this trope. Plus MLP already has too many pictures.
10:04:49 AM May 18th 2014
No, because neither "that series is so perfect for this trope" nor "MLP already has too many pictures." are sufficient arguments.
10:34:49 PM Aug 8th 2014
And Which are the arguments in favor and that makes MLP more suitable than Kirby's picture?
02:53:56 AM Aug 9th 2014
The arguments in favour are that the current image illustrates the trope. Also, the old picture of Kirby was apparently a spoiler; never desirable for page images. You can see the discussion here.
02:43:47 PM Nov 5th 2013
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Adventure Time section list like every villain on the show besides Ice King? It seems like being harmless is the exception rather than the rule for that show's villains, even if the one that is harmless gets more screen time (If IK can still be considered a villain at this point).
03:31:16 AM Nov 17th 2013
Except that there are lots of minor villains and antagonists that don't fit the trope, like Lemongrab, Xergiok, Donny, Little Dude, and various unnamed monsters. Furthermore there are many episodes that don't have villains, so even if every villain other than Ice King was listed, that doesn't automatically mean they don't fit the trope.
09:47:39 PM Apr 2nd 2013
I don't agree with most of the examples listed for MLP:FIM. The only two villains that I can describe by any stretch of the imagination as being "vile" would be Chrysalis and Sombra, and even then, it's pushing it, due to their campyness and monster of the week nature. I mean, Luna is listed. Wtf? She was a generic doomsday villain for two episodes, before getting redeemed and turning into an ultimate good. Truly she is a complete monster! And Trixie's power trip was constantly getting played for laughs. The show seems to actually push the message that "nobody is truly evil" so all these examples really caught me by surprise.
03:48:42 AM Jun 19th 2013
Except that having comedic elements hardly invalidates being a nasty villain, especially when they appear in a cutesy Slice of Life show about ponies learning life lessons. I mean, Discord is hilarious, but he's still a capricious sadist who terrorises defenseless ponies for giggles. The Windigos had no comedy, the Parasprites lost it once they started devouring the town, and for all their genericness Sombra, Chrysalis and the dragons all posed legitimate threats. I agree that Nightmare Moon shouldn't be there, as her real threat is only apparent thanks to Word of God, and Trixie might be removed as it was all the amulet's doing, but everyone else fits the trope.
10:14:33 AM Oct 20th 2014
Honestly, between My Little Pony G1 and My Little Pony G4, there are a total of 12 examples on this page for MLP. If a series has a dozen different Vile Villains, then can it really still be called a Saccharine Show?
04:10:50 AM Mar 19th 2013
Way too many Disney examples. The whole point of the trope is that they are darker than you'd expect from the show universe, yet nearly every Disney villain is listed.
09:28:56 AM Mar 19th 2013
edited by Thecommander236
I thought it was just the genre and rating of the show. You would expect this kind of villain from Disney, but if you didn't KNOW it was Disney, you would not expect it given its rating and target audience.
04:50:12 PM Mar 21st 2013
Nothing on the page says anything about genre or ratings. It talks only of the setting of the show, which doesn't include the ratings. A work where nearly every villain is Nightmare Fuel or a Complete Monster doesn't count.
09:34:44 PM Mar 22nd 2013
The setting. Look at Disney films, they almost always start with flowers, happiness, and fun. They are a few exceptions, though.
12:43:11 PM Aug 16th 2013
A lot of the Disney examples listed aren't "saccharine show" so much as "contains both lighthearted and dark elements." Hunchback and Mulan especially can't really be considered "saccharine" but honestly, most Disney movies aren't.

A lot of shoehorning in the animated film folder in general. The Brave Little Toaster? At most idealistic, it's a Crapsaccharine World.
09:53:50 AM May 9th 2014
I wouldn't consider The Great Mouse Detective to be saccharine either. The movie takes place completely at night. The only really well-lit places are Buckingham Palace and Ratigan's lair.
08:39:34 PM Sep 6th 2010
I at one point added the following as an example:

"An episode of the normally dramatic but light Avatar: The Last Airbender has Hama, an elderly woman who knows the power of blood bending, which enables her to control people's movements by pulling their blood around inside them."

beeftony deleted that, giving the following reason:

"ATLA doesn't count as saccharine. While it does make time for humor, for the most part it avoids the Animation Age Ghetto and plays its villains deadly serious. This is a show whose Big Bad intended to quell rebellion by incinerating an entire continent. And that's not even getting into his sadist of a daughter."

Is beeftony right? If so, it seems like the example of Sideshow Bob from The Simpsons shouldn't be up there either. I haven't seen much of the Simpsons, but from what I have seen, they don't look saccharine. Can any show with such adult humor be saccharine? I'm NOT posting this to complain about my example being removed or start an argument, I'm just somewhat confused and trying to understand why my example was removed for not being "saccharine" when it seems like the Simpsons aren't either. Is beeftony mistaken, or do I have the wrong impression about the Simpsons, or should the Simpsons example be removed?
08:43:26 PM Sep 6th 2010
Yeah I don't think either The Simpsons or Avatar: The Last Airbender count as saccharine. The S Impsons is at best a reflection of real America and at worst a Crapsack World. Avatar: The Last Airbender is set in a world which is fully developed with many non-Fire Nation related problems.
02:55:23 PM Oct 9th 2010
edited by 411314
But isn't saying that examples from non-saccharine stories shouldn't be here just because "saccharine" is in the trope's title rather like saying that any example from a book shouldn't be here because the word "show" is in the title? The trope description doesn't say that the story has to be saccharine, it just says it has to "normally light-hearted", and that's definitely true of Last Airbender with all the cheesy humor from Aang and Soka. Also, The Hunchback of Notre Dame and The Princess and the Frog don't really count as saccharine either, do they?
04:32:34 PM Dec 5th 2012
The line has to be drawn somewhere. I removed Arsenic and Old Lace for this reason; a comedy that already leans toward Gallows Humor before introducing an Ax-Crazy villain isn't really lighthearted enough for this trope.
09:42:58 AM Mar 18th 2013
edited by ading
The Simpsons may not be "saccharine", but it's generally lighthearted and comical, whereas Sideshow Bob can be genuinely disturbing. The main point is that the villain is significantly darker than any other characters.
02:47:06 PM Jul 29th 2010
Truly, they couln't have choosen a better pic for this trope.
09:48:29 AM Aug 5th 2010
Where did the pic even come from? I've played the Zero-Two bossfight in K-64, at no point in the fight is he dripping blood. The closest thing to bleeding he does is when reddish blobs appear when you shoot him, and neither their appearance nor their sound effects resemble blood (if anything they look and sound like bubbles fizzing out of a shaken soda can). The image has to be fan art, and it's very misleading as to the nature of the boss fight.
01:03:53 PM Aug 5th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
The apparent inaccuracy of the image coupled with the fact that I can't even make out what it is leads me to believe that, pending an explanation this image should be removed.

Personally, I'd prefer a better picture, if anybody has one handy.
08:50:26 PM Aug 14th 2010
edited by SweetMadness
There's a reason why 02 is listed as High Octane Nightmare Fuel for the Kirby series, an opinion that's reiterated a number of times whenever Kirby 64 or its final boss is mentioned. It may not be on the same level as, say, Silent Hill, but still has a much darker tone than the rest of the game. The franchise as a whole is also well-known for having some disturbing final bosses in relation to the rest of the Sugar Bowl setting.

I thought I made the contrast between the overall tone of the game in relation to its Big Bad clear enough with the picture. If a better picture is found, then go ahead and replace it. But until then, I'm putting the original one back up.
11:00:53 AM Apr 1st 2013
Accurate or not, it still sums up the trope well.
12:03:42 PM Sep 28th 2013
That is blood, the official art in the game makes it clear. Look no further than the credits after beating it.
09:28:36 PM Jun 15th 2010
I want to point out that The Black Cauldron was a Disney movie. That was by far the darkest thing that has come out of their studio. Watching it still gives me the willies, let alone when I was a 1st grader.
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