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TheJojolion
topic
09:44:28 AM May 18th 2014
edited by 71.228.107.36
Can we change the picture back to Kirby, that series is so perfect for this trope. Plus MLP already has too many pictures.
SeptimusHeap
10:04:49 AM May 18th 2014
No, because neither "that series is so perfect for this trope" nor "MLP already has too many pictures." are sufficient arguments.
MachiNami
10:34:49 PM Aug 8th 2014
And Which are the arguments in favor and that makes MLP more suitable than Kirby's picture?
SeptimusHeap
02:53:56 AM Aug 9th 2014
The arguments in favour are that the current image illustrates the trope. Also, the old picture of Kirby was apparently a spoiler; never desirable for page images. You can see the discussion here.
BURGINABC
topic
02:43:47 PM Nov 5th 2013
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Adventure Time section list like every villain on the show besides Ice King? It seems like being harmless is the exception rather than the rule for that show's villains, even if the one that is harmless gets more screen time (If IK can still be considered a villain at this point).
Extraintrovert
03:31:16 AM Nov 17th 2013
Except that there are lots of minor villains and antagonists that don't fit the trope, like Lemongrab, Xergiok, Donny, Little Dude, and various unnamed monsters. Furthermore there are many episodes that don't have villains, so even if every villain other than Ice King was listed, that doesn't automatically mean they don't fit the trope.
Gooberpatrol66
topic
09:47:39 PM Apr 2nd 2013
I don't agree with most of the examples listed for MLP:FIM. The only two villains that I can describe by any stretch of the imagination as being "vile" would be Chrysalis and Sombra, and even then, it's pushing it, due to their campyness and monster of the week nature. I mean, Luna is listed. Wtf? She was a generic doomsday villain for two episodes, before getting redeemed and turning into an ultimate good. Truly she is a complete monster! And Trixie's power trip was constantly getting played for laughs. The show seems to actually push the message that "nobody is truly evil" so all these examples really caught me by surprise.
Extraintrovert
03:48:42 AM Jun 19th 2013
Except that having comedic elements hardly invalidates being a nasty villain, especially when they appear in a cutesy Slice of Life show about ponies learning life lessons. I mean, Discord is hilarious, but he's still a capricious sadist who terrorises defenseless ponies for giggles. The Windigos had no comedy, the Parasprites lost it once they started devouring the town, and for all their genericness Sombra, Chrysalis and the dragons all posed legitimate threats. I agree that Nightmare Moon shouldn't be there, as her real threat is only apparent thanks to Word of God, and Trixie might be removed as it was all the amulet's doing, but everyone else fits the trope.
ading
topic
04:10:50 AM Mar 19th 2013
Way too many Disney examples. The whole point of the trope is that they are darker than you'd expect from the show universe, yet nearly every Disney villain is listed.
Thecommander236
09:28:56 AM Mar 19th 2013
edited by Thecommander236
I thought it was just the genre and rating of the show. You would expect this kind of villain from Disney, but if you didn't KNOW it was Disney, you would not expect it given its rating and target audience.
ading
04:50:12 PM Mar 21st 2013
Nothing on the page says anything about genre or ratings. It talks only of the setting of the show, which doesn't include the ratings. A work where nearly every villain is Nightmare Fuel or a Complete Monster doesn't count.
Thecommander236
09:34:44 PM Mar 22nd 2013
The setting. Look at Disney films, they almost always start with flowers, happiness, and fun. They are a few exceptions, though.
PPPSSC
12:43:11 PM Aug 16th 2013
A lot of the Disney examples listed aren't "saccharine show" so much as "contains both lighthearted and dark elements." Hunchback and Mulan especially can't really be considered "saccharine" but honestly, most Disney movies aren't.

A lot of shoehorning in the animated film folder in general. The Brave Little Toaster? At most idealistic, it's a Crapsaccharine World.
Rhomega2
09:53:50 AM May 9th 2014
I wouldn't consider The Great Mouse Detective to be saccharine either. The movie takes place completely at night. The only really well-lit places are Buckingham Palace and Ratigan's lair.
411314
topic
08:39:34 PM Sep 6th 2010
I at one point added the following as an example:

"An episode of the normally dramatic but light Avatar: The Last Airbender has Hama, an elderly woman who knows the power of blood bending, which enables her to control people's movements by pulling their blood around inside them."

beeftony deleted that, giving the following reason:

"ATLA doesn't count as saccharine. While it does make time for humor, for the most part it avoids the Animation Age Ghetto and plays its villains deadly serious. This is a show whose Big Bad intended to quell rebellion by incinerating an entire continent. And that's not even getting into his sadist of a daughter."

Is beeftony right? If so, it seems like the example of Sideshow Bob from The Simpsons shouldn't be up there either. I haven't seen much of the Simpsons, but from what I have seen, they don't look saccharine. Can any show with such adult humor be saccharine? I'm NOT posting this to complain about my example being removed or start an argument, I'm just somewhat confused and trying to understand why my example was removed for not being "saccharine" when it seems like the Simpsons aren't either. Is beeftony mistaken, or do I have the wrong impression about the Simpsons, or should the Simpsons example be removed?
RhymeBeat
08:43:26 PM Sep 6th 2010
Yeah I don't think either The Simpsons or Avatar: The Last Airbender count as saccharine. The S Impsons is at best a reflection of real America and at worst a Crapsack World. Avatar: The Last Airbender is set in a world which is fully developed with many non-Fire Nation related problems.
411314
02:55:23 PM Oct 9th 2010
edited by 411314
But isn't saying that examples from non-saccharine stories shouldn't be here just because "saccharine" is in the trope's title rather like saying that any example from a book shouldn't be here because the word "show" is in the title? The trope description doesn't say that the story has to be saccharine, it just says it has to "normally light-hearted", and that's definitely true of Last Airbender with all the cheesy humor from Aang and Soka. Also, The Hunchback of Notre Dame and The Princess and the Frog don't really count as saccharine either, do they?
Prfnoff
04:32:34 PM Dec 5th 2012
The line has to be drawn somewhere. I removed Arsenic and Old Lace for this reason; a comedy that already leans toward Gallows Humor before introducing an Ax-Crazy villain isn't really lighthearted enough for this trope.
ading
09:42:58 AM Mar 18th 2013
edited by ading
The Simpsons may not be "saccharine", but it's generally lighthearted and comical, whereas Sideshow Bob can be genuinely disturbing. The main point is that the villain is significantly darker than any other characters.
201.236.6.81
topic
02:47:06 PM Jul 29th 2010
Truly, they couln't have choosen a better pic for this trope.
71.67.119.104
09:48:29 AM Aug 5th 2010
Where did the pic even come from? I've played the Zero-Two bossfight in K-64, at no point in the fight is he dripping blood. The closest thing to bleeding he does is when reddish blobs appear when you shoot him, and neither their appearance nor their sound effects resemble blood (if anything they look and sound like bubbles fizzing out of a shaken soda can). The image has to be fan art, and it's very misleading as to the nature of the boss fight.
SomeGuy
01:03:53 PM Aug 5th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
The apparent inaccuracy of the image coupled with the fact that I can't even make out what it is leads me to believe that, pending an explanation this image should be removed.

Personally, I'd prefer a better picture, if anybody has one handy.
SweetMadness
08:50:26 PM Aug 14th 2010
edited by SweetMadness
There's a reason why 02 is listed as High Octane Nightmare Fuel for the Kirby series, an opinion that's reiterated a number of times whenever Kirby 64 or its final boss is mentioned. It may not be on the same level as, say, Silent Hill, but still has a much darker tone than the rest of the game. The franchise as a whole is also well-known for having some disturbing final bosses in relation to the rest of the Sugar Bowl setting.

I thought I made the contrast between the overall tone of the game in relation to its Big Bad clear enough with the picture. If a better picture is found, then go ahead and replace it. But until then, I'm putting the original one back up.
ading
11:00:53 AM Apr 1st 2013
Accurate or not, it still sums up the trope well.
Cider
12:03:42 PM Sep 28th 2013
That is blood, the official art in the game makes it clear. Look no further than the credits after beating it.
69.92.185.49
topic
09:28:36 PM Jun 15th 2010
I want to point out that The Black Cauldron was a Disney movie. That was by far the darkest thing that has come out of their studio. Watching it still gives me the willies, let alone when I was a 1st grader.
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