What's Happening

Troperville

Tools

collapse/expand topics back to Main/PunkPunk

hoodiecrow
topic
06:30:32 AM Mar 28th 2010
edited by hoodiecrow
Of the machine gun and the railroad, which was the first important technology to impact strategy?

Short answer: railroads helped Prussia win the Austro-Prussian War in 1866[1], 18 years before the first true machine gun suitable for field use was invented (the earlier Gatling gun was too expensive and not easily portable).

Long answer: machine guns make a lot of noise on the battlefield and even more noise in the works of early 20th-century war historians, which usually leads to more significant strategic factors being overlooked. They had an enormous impact on battlefield tactics but until WWII they were never a strategic asset, i.e. they prevented the opposite side from achieving victory using traditional strategies but did not help the own side achieve it either.

In contrast, railroads were essential to the strategic implementation of von Moltke the Elder's Theory of War in the late 19th century and the Schlieffen Plan in the early 20th, and together with terrain-moving transport (and fighting) vehicles to the Blitzkrieg strategy of the mid-20th century. The telegraph, and later wireless radio, was equally important for early warning and response systems and for ensuring short report and command cycles between headquarters and front.

(In colonial warfare, machine guns were decisive on their own, but strategy was seldom very important there.)

So, I believe the technology description should mention railroads and the telegraph before the machine gun.
64.136.223.213
06:45:51 AM Aug 22nd 2010
And here I thought "steampunk" was a stupid term. You guys have really topped yourselves with this one. Congrats.
hoodiecrow
05:42:50 AM Aug 23rd 2010
I don't know if you're referring to a specific sub-genre or to the Punk Punk cluster as a whole. In either case, yes, of course it is stupid. The term (Whatever)punk can be read as "we're serious about (whatever), but not too serious".

Sort of like how this very wiki has serious discussions about topics that usually get informal, punny, or just silly titles.

gfrequency
topic
11:45:32 AM Oct 20th 2010
Maybe there should be a Just Bugs Me page for stuff like this, but...seriously, do we really need to parse the genre into this many examples? You can count the number of "examples" of a few of these supposed sub-genres on one hand. Cyber Punk and Steam Punk are all well and good, there's precedent, but..."Sandal Punk?" "Stone Punk?" Does Maeve Binchy write Cottage Punk? Can we add Cottage Punk, please?
hoodiecrow
01:24:59 PM Oct 20th 2010
edited by hoodiecrow
The answer to the question lies in the roots of the Punk Punk meta-genre. The sf of the late 1980s, later termed cyberpunk, was seen as ultra-realistic in its predictions, e.g. space habitats and continued Cold War (both seemed likely in those days). Less than a decade later, cyberpunk was completely left behind sociologically and still unattained technologically. Unlike some other trends in sf however, it still resonated with speculative fiction fans and so didn't become entirely extinct. The natural continuation of cyberpunk is to keep writing successful tech + failing society fiction in the same vein, but instead of being wrong about the 1990s/2000s milieu only, it can be wrong about other eras and contexts. In contrast to cyberpunk, steampunk is a deliberately and explicitly anachronistic genre, but it is still true to the spirit of a meta-genre that is more or less defined by those two extremes. Some of the other *punk sub-genres bridge that gap (especially dieselpunk), and others extrapolate even further (like clockpunk and even more extreme, sandalpunk).

I don't see it as a major problem that there are only a few works in some of the sub-genres; Punk Punk is an unrestricted, inclusivistic, eclectic meta-genre that is quite willing to be speculative about speculativity. I feel it wouldn't be true to Punk Punk to winnow out sub-genres for being bizarre or unviable. As long as there is 1) a society with tendencies to alienation and authoritarianism and 2) pervasive, story-carrying technology that is rampant rather than advanced, I think it can be made into a Punk Punk sub-genre (I do believe this rules out Cottage Punk though, sorry).

gfrequency
10:00:37 PM Oct 23rd 2010
That's reasonable enough. I'd contend that "punk punk" is more of an attitude than a function of technology versus society (how can one have rampant stone age or bronze age technology?). You could call Blade Of The Immortal "Samurai Punk" if you really wanted to. But that's neither here nor there.

My problem with it is still a matter of overdistinction. Sure, Eberron and Bioshock may not fit an overly narrow definition of steampunk as "Victoriana plus steam," but for all intents and purposes they're still steampunk, and they still feel like steampunk. Parsing it into fifteen subgenres just seems as if we're splitting hairs so we can put "punk" after a word. Like calling a particular sort of music "shoegaze" for the sake of having a new genre when it already fits into one that already exists.
hoodiecrow
07:57:15 AM Oct 25th 2010
I'd contend that "punk punk" is more of an attitude than a function of technology versus society

Maybe it came out as "tech vs society", but that's not what I meant. In Punk Punk, society and technology are almost completely fused together, in a (mostly) dystopian way.

how can one have rampant stone age or bronze age technology?

In approximately the same way that steampunk works: by introducing radical anachronisms.

My problem with it is still a matter of overdistinction.

Of the 14 sub-genres listed, 12 have articles of their own, so it seems strange not to mention them.

Maybe we could take out the stone / sandal punk examples, at least until there are articles for them.

back to Main/PunkPunk

This wiki is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License.
Privacy Policy