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Ask the Tropers:
resolved Should this example of "Complete Monster" be removed? Videogame
From the Hotline Miami YMMV page:
- Complete Monster: The Janitors — real names Dennis and Jonatan — are a duo of terrorists and members of the ultranationalist group 50 Blessings, who are responsible for many events in the series. Attempting to make America more powerful in their own vision, the Janitors manipulate the citizens of Miami to slaughter members of the Russian Mafia by sending out cryptic and threatening phone calls, and either take action against those who do not comply, leave them to die at the hands of the Russians if they fail their mission, or simply eliminate them once they outlive their usefulness. When one of their victims, Richter, dismisses the phone calls, the Janitors torch his car and threaten to have his sickly mother murdered. The Janitors then send Richter to kill Jacket, costing the life of Jacket's girlfriend and putting Jacket into a coma. When Richter is sent to prison for his botched assassination attempt, the Janitors hire an inmate to kill Richter to tie up loose ends and orchestrate a prison riot to make sure Richter dies, causing countless deaths. Despite their claims, the Janitors are simply a pair of sadistic hypocrites who are no better than the Russians they resent.
First, the janitors are The Dividual so it's hard to talk about them separately, but I still feel like this break the rule of Complete Monster being about a single character. Also, they just don't have enough screen time to confirm if they're really irredeemable, there's still the possibilites that they have loved ones offscreen.
resolved Reorganizing OMORI - Main Group Page Videogame
Currently, the Characters page for the main cast of OMORI organizes the character folders into the Headspace version of the group and the Faraway Town versions of the group, which leads to some redundant trope entries between the two versions of each character. I would like to reorganize the page by character such that each character's Headspace and Faraway Town counterpart is grouped together, allowing for a general folder for each character's shared tropes.
Since this would be a complete reorganization of the page, I want to run it by people before going through with it, but I am unsure of what forum I should use to do so. Would this be appropriate for the Short-Term Projects forum, or is there a better option?
Edited by IglooTAresolved Genshin Impact: Furina, gamebreaker or loser edit war Videogame
On November 10th, Altair 97 expanded Furina's Memetic Loser entry to include her gameplay performance (previously it focused only on her role in the story). However, this seems to be a personal opinion and runs contrary to public consensus on Furina's gameplay so Konoe Jerry removed it. A few hours later Altair 97 added the entry back with no changes.
Currently a gamebreaker entry is being drafted for Furina, with discussion from multiple TV Tropes participants.
resolved 2 questions Videogame
I'm trying to create a work page, https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Sandbox/TheCleaner
1) I couldn't load an image. I followed the designated steps. Could it be a sandbox thing?
2) I refer to Game Maker, which is the program used to create the game and points to a certain demographic of indie game programmers. It is written without the space, however, it turns out Game Maker points to a trope. Is there a way to display it without it becoming a wick automatically?
resolved Troper camping on the Sonic Adventure 2 pages. Videogame
Troper L Fisher has been cutting multiple edits that portray GUN (one of the antagonists of Sonic Adventure 2) exactly as negatively as the game itself does, and making edits that partially exonerate them for committing mass murder ("but the Black Arms!"); they also tend to cut any mention that GUN was implied to be framing Sonic. While all this has been going on for a while, my personal last straw was them doing both of these recently, reducing the "Frame-Up" entry to a single sentence that isn't even accurate (Shadow didn't frame Sonic, at least not intentionally).
Not only is it extremely difficult to make edits about GUN on these pages, but I feel that this is treading uncomfortably close to apologia for real-world atrocities.
resolved Broken Aesop misuse for Danganronpa? Videogame
Recently a Broke Aesop page was created for the Danganronpa series by troper Lord Twi Bill. Reading through the page, I can't help but feel it was written as an outlet to rant about the series. It's written with a strangely vitriolic tone; it comes across as snidely insulting, rather than just explaining why the series' Aesops are broken. The fact this was all written by one troper doesn't help either.
Shouldn't a Broken Aesop page be straightforward? Everything written in the Danganronpa page seems subjective, extremely so. I don't think the page was written in a professional manner.
What are your thoughts on this? I wasn't sure how to put this across, but I look forward to reading what you guys think.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BrokenAesop/Danganronpa
Edited by DatOrkyGitresolved Possible edit war Videogame
On Characters.Trails Series Erebonia Thors Class VII Original, user Joe Devaney 29 has made some edits on the page, and later I think they might be edit warring
- In here, they added more stuff to a Jerkass Has a Point (note that this was added by another user back in February this year), that doesn't stat if anyone in-universe agrees with that.
- I removed it citing this post I made in the "is this an example thread" and got confirmation that it needs characters in-universe going like "no no he's got a point".
- They added it back with this edit reason:
I'm not sure that reason is enough to add that entry back.
I should mention that the troper has some issues in the past (like word cruft and making entries borderline text walls) but I think this might be a concerning one.
Any other thoughts?
Edited by Ayumi-chanresolved Possible edit war (respost) Videogame
(Original ATT is here, but I realized that it might be better if I combined the OG ATT with the comment I made on it regarding something else I realized)
On Characters.Trails Series Erebonia Thors Class VII Original, user Joe Devaney 29 has made some edits on the page, and I think they might skewer the line into possible edit warring.
- In here, they added a Jerk with a Heart of Gold entry on Sara's folder.
- I removed it since I don't really recall Sara being a jerk (just lazy and maybe kind of a freeloader, but she is far from mean and obnoxious) while noting to restore it if I was wrong
- They add it back with this edit reason:
- I removed it again since the above edit reason made me question if she really fits and I was given the ok to remove per the "is this an example" thread and this ATT.
- In here, they added more stuff to a Jerkass Has a Point (note that this was added by another user back in February this year), that doesn't stat if anyone in-universe agrees with that.
- I removed it citing this post I made in the "is this an example thread" and got confirmation that it needs characters in-universe going like "no no he's got a point".
- They added it back with this edit reason:
It's worth noting that Joe has added the previous JWAHOG entry to Sara's Bunny-Ears Lawyer entry (with some rewrites) but at the end of their edit reason they still believe she is an example and that they "intend to discuss it someday" which doesn't bode to well for me. Additionally, I asked here about the JHAP entry, but as this writing I got no response.
Any thoughts on this?
resolved Making changes to "Monsters" page Videogame
Would like to ask about where to mention about making a change in the Video Games: Q to S page.
Recently made the Spy Fiction (2003) page from the Spy Fiction page as a split. I need to change the monster page to add the former trope page link.
resolved Permission to re-delete an example Videogame
On Trails Series Erebonia Thors Class VII Original, I removed a Jerk with a Heart of Gold entry on Sara since I don't recall her being a jerk at all in the first two games, tho it's worth mentioning that I did state to re-add the example if I'm wrong. User Joe Devaney 29 later added it back with this edit reason:
Since the edit reason made me question whether she really fits the Trope, I asked on the "Is this an example" thread, and I was told that if an example doesn't fit, it just doesn't.
I would delete, but since I deleted earlier, that would make it an edit war. So I wanted to ask if I can delete again.
Edited by Ayumi-chanresolved Trying to avoid an edit war Videogame
On Characters.Plants Vs Zombies 2 Its About Time Plants, I hid several ZCEs that were on the page. Today, I saw that Sent Saw Too Much had unhid two of the examples without giving any context to them. Given that I had already hid them, I don't want to get into an edit war. Am I free to hide them again?
resolved Non-YMMV trope in YMMV page: Final Fantasy Legend II Videogame
...And I thought it wouldn't ever happen again, but it does:
In the page YMMV.Final Fantasy Legend II, Nintendo Hard is listed there. Speaking of which, Video Games difficulty might be subjective between players, but if a lot of players see the Video Game with trope page in this site is seen as hard, it would been listed in the main page, rather than the YMMV.
Oddly enough, the trope has been there from the creation of the YMMV page, which is relatively new compared to the main Video Game page itself, and created in January 2021, likely to make out a separate YMMV page for Final Fantasy Legend II).
What will I do?
EDIT: As of this TRS thread, apparently the decision of Nintendo Hard being subjective has resulted it in being moved to YMMV trope. So I guess it's fine to move it back to YMMV. And this is after I self-locked the query by marking it as Resolved! Dang it.
Edited by JustNormalMusicLoverresolved Transphobic edit reason Videogame
mrluntishysterical removed the Cross-Dressing Voices entry on Trivia.SuperMarioBrosWonder, citing that Giselle Fernandez is "biologically female", though Giselle themself is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns.
I reverted the entry already and sent them a notifier before writing this query, but I have a feeling this may turn into a possible agenda in the long run.
resolved Biased/Inflammatory example in a YMMV Persona page? Videogame
The edit on the Values Dissonance section of the Persona page done by user Key Wii J feels like an attempt to assert a biased opinion and feels like it's framed in a very inflammatory way - especially the statement regarding the so-called "Western Progressives", which seems a bit off to me. Anyone else think this?
Edited by Makirresolved Funny/GenshinImpact Videogame
I couldn't help but notice after doing an edit that some of the folders in the funny page for Genshin Impact are starting to get rather big (The events folder in particular is huge). As Such, I was wonder if it would be a good idea to make separate pages for some (if not all) of the folder here to better organize.
Edited by Zerukinresolved Is this actually a Headscratcher? Videogame
The Headscratchers page for Patapon is just a single entry saying that they hate that the game has no pause function, and all of the bullets under it are closer to something you'd see under Discussion.
This seems to me like less of a Headscratcher and more like an It Just Bugs Me page that survived the name change. I'm not crazy right? It's not even worded like a question and only one of the "replies" answers it.
resolved Odd grammatical perhaps-corrections Videogame
Mr Derpy Kid 2 changed "themselves" into "themself" on Characters.Armored Core VI Main Characters and Characters.Armored Core VI Corporations. I've never seen it used this way before, and all my googling showed was "some people might be using it, IDK spidey lol".
Do I correct this (and send a notifier)? Is this even the sort of change that needs correcting?
resolved Rewriting Walkthrough Mode Page Videogame
Here's the summary of Walkthrough Mode:
For example, let's say Alice adds the Puppy Stomper 3000 to That One Boss. Bob follows this up by stating, "Actually, the Puppy Stomper isn't tough if you have the Ring of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to do X, Y and Z." Then Clara comes by and adds, "To be fair, you need Sven in your party to use the Ring of Puppy Protection. It's easier to use the Stick of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to bring the Ring of Puppy Protection to the Ring Transumation Fairy in Scary Town."
Using the example from the above paragraph, here's what it looks like on a page.
- That One Boss: Puppy Stomper 3000 is hard because of blah blah.
- Actually, the Puppy Stomper isn't tough if you have the Ring of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to do X, Y and Z.
- To be fair, you need Sven in your party to use the Ring of Puppy Protection. It's easier to use the Stick of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to bring the Ring of Puppy Protection to the Ring Transumation Fairy in Scary Town.
- Actually, the Puppy Stomper isn't tough if you have the Ring of Puppy Protection, which only requires you to do X, Y and Z.
The first two paragraphs basically describe a videogame mechanics-themed version of Thread Mode, which... editors shouldn't do either, but if all the page has to say is "don't thread mode about game mechanics", it probably doesn't need to exist — just point to Thread Mode instead.
To my understanding, what Walkthrough Mode should tell readers is that they should avoid cluttering examples with numbers, niche mechanics, and long-winded guides that are only tangentially relevant to how there is an example of a trope — this is suggested to me by that last paragraph. Here's a version I think could work, which emphasizes that:
For example, let's say Alice lists the Puppy Stompertron as an example of That One Boss, engaging in Walkthrough Mode to do so:
- That One Boss: The Puppy Stompertron appears at the end of the Puppy Factory and presents a massive roadblock to the player. It's got a massive 70,000 HP health bar (by the end of the factory, you'll be dealing 300 DPS at best), has immunity to Bleed, Stun, Dizzy, Confuse, and Love, and all of its attacks are That One Attack. Puppy Squishing deals 10,000 damage and can only be survived with the Anti-Ten Thousand Medal from the Numbers Swamp, Puppy Flamethrowing is supposed to deal only 40 damage to the player once but a bug with the level geometry can cause the flames to deal 400 damage if the player's standing on the many hills around the arena, and the Dog Food Ingester will heal it back to full unless the player has done the sidequest to obtain Dog Food Poison, which is easily missable at the start of the game. The only thing that can make this easy is the Puppy Stompertron Control Device to cut its HP in half, which is only available to builds that use the Dagger of Air Vent Entry, a 37 Charisma build to take it from the Puppy Factory Foreman (you can't go with any other level of Charisma, he starts liking you too much if you do), or a glitched maximum Speed character to clip through the northeast locked door and access the room where it's stored.
As you can see, this entry is hard to read because it's loaded with tangents on whole-game strategies and numbers that mean nothing to an outsider, when all that's needed is to explain how the Puppy Stompertron boss is harder than the rest of the game. Let's see an example that does just that:
- That One Boss: The Puppy Stompertron appears at the end of the Puppy Factory and presents a massive roadblock to the player. It has massive HP for that point at the game, immunity to many of the useful status effects, and all of its attacks are That One Attack — dealing massive damage or healing itself to full. The only ways to get past it painlessly involve highly-specific strategies and/or exploiting glitches, neither of which are available to every character class.
This entry is much more succinct in stating why the Puppy Stompertron is an example of That One Boss: it has high stats, immunity to statuses, powerful attacks, and the mechanics to make it easier aren't universally applicable. By cutting out details, the example becomes easier to read and digestible, yet the non-Walkthrough Mode entry still manages to communicate key points on why the Puppy Stompertron is this trope.
As a side bonus, when talking about games that are receiving post-launch updates, avoiding exact numbers gives a degree of futureproofing. In many games, if a change needs to be made, the numbers are usually first to be adjusted, so if the Puppy Stompertron ever has its HP or damage values changed this way, the example doesn't suddenly need an update to correct those parts.
While it is understandable why Walkthrough Mode happens, wiki articles are not walkthroughs for how to beat That One Boss or That One Level. Trope examples should be generic enough that those who aren't familiar with the game can understand them, and shouldn't be cluttered with something like the exact attack strength of a weapon or helpful asides about which two of the three Superbosses can be affected by the Game-Breaker. This isn't to say that you shouldn't list your example with little to no information, which is the opposite problem; you just need to explain why your example is that of the trope in question in a way that's digestible to the average reader.
See also Word Cruft, another writing element that makes examples bloated and indigestible by adding too many unnecessary words.
Does this look good to use on the page?
Edited by Pyhrrousresolved Give Pokemon its own Obvious Rule Patch page? Videogame
There has been so many changes made to Pokemon that documenting the most important changes would require its own page. The Pokemon entry in the Video Games page is looking lengthy. Is it time to give that franchise its own page on rule changes?
Edited by AperturePublishing
Yuusha Fan has added a spoiler tag on a header in this character page. I removed the tag and then he added back in anyways. The thing he added is literally a big time spoiler. Also there is no edit reasons, already DMed him about it. Can I undo that thing? I've already undid it once and I do not want to risk an edit war myself.
Edited by Mr-ex777