Is this an article or an index?: Role Playing Game

If that's the case, the we should ax all the Video Game examples from Role-Playing Game not the tabletop ones. After all, it's been the genre there for decades before video games came along and took elements from it. The video game ideas are a ported version of the older system that due to technology wasn't able to handle the same set of rules. It's getting better though. The goal of a lot of video game rpg development is to make it more like table top.

Actually, the Role-Playing Game page seems to be mostly about Video Games, which is my complaint in the first place. It would be more sensible rework a bit, rename and ax the non-video game examples. In fact, looking in the histpry, the user 'berr' had make an edit because the page did not included Tabletop RPG as 'RPG' in one paragraph, amusingly enough.

Anyway, I agree with Cidolfas. Video Game RPG and Tabletop RPG are not the same thing, at all. The gameplay itself is not remotely similar, mostly because Tabletop RPG 'gameplay' is mostly as free: 'I say what I want to do and roll a dice' (and the dice is not required, btw), as a Video Game RPG, as any video game, can only purpose choice for the player to take. By that, LARP is more close to Tabletop RPG then a Video Game RPG ever was.

What I sense is people confuses Tabletop RPG with {{D&D}}, and particularly with the most traditional and famous form of playing {{D&D}} (a party dungeon crawling searching for treasures and beating the Big Bad in the end) This is not RPG, even though it is it origins. Vampire The Mascarade and Paranoia are two examples of how different TabletopRPGs can be. For many, playing these game as you play {{D&D}} is Completelly Missing The Point (but, of course, you can play any RPG whatever you want, because this is the point). That is probably why people think Tabletop RPG is just a variation of games like Final Fantasy, Never Winter Nights and Ookami (yes, I know Never Winter Nights is based on D&D, this don't make it any more Tabletop RPG then Street Fighter, the movie, is a Fighting Game).

Based on this, the "genre" Role Playing Game by definition cannot exist anywhere but video games, because the "gameplay" on a tabletop is totally different and hence is not the same genre.

I disagree. There are differences, sure, but they're both called "RPGs" for a reason. They both involve using a Game System to simulate a world that players interact with via their characters, who gradually gain power (usually via increasing in level). The differences between tabletop RPGs and video game RPGs is relevant, but they're both still RPGs.

Sorry, but your definition is quite wrong. First of all, pretty much every game "simulate a world that players interact with via their characters". It just depends of how broad is your definition of 'world'. I mean which game does not allow interaction via the player's character? Also, while I don't remember any Tabletop RPG that does not have a mechanic for "gradually gain power", sometimes this is not, at all, the focus. Quite a few Tabletop RPG are not even meant to be played wit the same character for too long (specially the more humorous ones), 'gaining power' is kinda moot on those.

Also, note that this definition applies for games like Metroid, that are not, by any definition, a RPG. Depending of how much you stretch "gradually gain power", even some Mario games can fit on it.

Lets say one thing, what make a Tabletop RPG a Tabletop RPG is two or more players (GM included) working together to make up an interesting (for who plays) story. That is why a Video Game RPG is so different. In the tabletop the player(s) is/are a important part in the 'making story' bit, while in a video game the story is already created, and the player can only interact with it. The main charm of a Tabletop RPG is it freedomness. Even in a 'standard' Dungeon Crawl game you can always make something that it was not predicted by the GM. That is the reason Rail Roading is considered bad GMing (in fact, this is adressed in the 3th paragraph of Rail Roading).

edited 10th Dec '10 11:19:59 AM by Heatth

Can we quit being pedantic about this? It wasn't meant to be a technical definition. We all know what an RPG is — regardless of whether it's tabletop or digital. There's no reason to split tabletop RPG and video game RPG for the same reason that there's no reason to split scifi novel and scifi movie. What media an RPG is presented in is irrelevant to the fact that it's an RPG.

That is my point "what is an RPG" is completely different for the fans of Tabletop RPG and Video Game RPG. That is why we shouldn't treat it as the same thing. Of course I am talking only by personal experience, but I don't know anyone who have played both and think they are the same. The way I see it is saying an Action Game and a Action Movie are the same just because they are both 'Action'.

The movie and the game aren't the same, but they both share a genre. As a result they share a family of tropes that define them before we move on to subtler distinctions. A fish and a bird are both animals. They're just more specific subsets of animal.

And tabletop and video games aren't completely different. They share a lot of the same tropes. They both have character classes. They both frequently have a lot of the same rules for equipment. The video game is just automated and less free than tabletop. That doesn't mean that they aren't the same genre. There's a reason that for almost any video game rpg trope that isn't directly related to the console, it was done first in tabletop rpg.

edited 10th Dec '10 2:42:31 PM by shimaspawn

I admit, I just skimmed through this. Just wanted to say about the Role-Playing Games genre only under videogames, we could call that Role Playing Video Games for clarity, if that's the way divisions go.

edited 10th Dec '10 3:57:25 PM by MoCellMan

Sorry, but do you think the 'action' in Action Game and Action Movie means the same thing? Really? The first is all about gameplay and the second is all about story-line. You can very well have a Action Game that is a Horror in story. The 'action' here means two completely different things. In fact, it is not the best of the analogy, since both Tabeltop Games and Video Games are 'games' (unlike a movie). But my objective was to point that two genre that shares a name don't have to be the same thing.

Anyway, they surely share tropes (assuming you mean tabetop RPG and video game RPG, this is important). The Video Game RPG did come from Tabletop RPG (mostly D&D, I believe), after all. But this doesn't mean the genre is the same. For one thing, all you identified as 'RPG tropes' are more tied to D&D, not Tabletop RPG in general. Of the biggest RPG syste (like GURPS), only D&D, and games based on it (D20 system) use classes. I don't know what exactly you mean by 'rules for equipments, but this is probably D&D influence again, as the D20 system rules for it is much more 'video-game-like' then most other system.

It seem you are making the error I said it was more common. You are confusing D&D with Tabletop RPG. This is like believe 'Super Hero Comics' and 'American Comics' are the same thing. The subgenre is so famous that more or less dominate the market, but it still don't is the whole genre by itself.

Yes... you continue to make a claim that "they are the same genre" but not to define what that sentence means. A genre is either a type of story (fantasy, film noir, horror etc.) or a type of gameplay, when used to describe video games (action, adventure, RPG). Tabletop Games by definition can't use the video game use of "genre" and so RPG as a genre cannot apply to Tabletop Games.

The two types of RPG do share some tropes - but most of them are not shared in the least, especially when taking Eastern RPG's into account. Western RPG's tends to share many tropes with Tabletop RPG's, but even then I'd argue there are more that are separate than that are shared.

The way I see it is saying an Action Game and a Action Movie are the same just because they are both 'Action'.

That's a terrible analogy. Games and movies are completely different; one's an interactive experience in which the audience is an active participant, the other is a static experience in which the audience is merely a spectator. The two aren't comparable. Tabletop games and video games, on the other hand are the same kind of experience — one just uses minis and dice, while the other uses a computer.

^^ Not at all Cid. They are both systems of games. They can share gaming tropes and gaming technicalities.

Again, I'd argue not quite - how do you define "gameplay"? In one you're interacting with the world via a controller and a video screen; in the other it's with your voice and hands and other people. In one you may need hand-eye coordination; in the other you don't. The differences are just far higher than the similarities.

But we're not talking about the differences. We're talking about the similarities. The Role Playing Game Tropes page would be about role playing game tropes, not "video game tropes" or "tabletop game tropes". The fact that there are tropes in common overrides the fact that there are tropes they don't have in common.

Have a read of Lumper Vs Splitter. Pretty classic example here. I am a lumper, so I agree that that ultimately everything re role playing should be indexed/examined in one place. The commonalities are the interesting part.

A splitter will want this to be about a medium, like videogame versus miniatures-n-paper.

Both are right, for their mindset. Figuring out how to do both is the trick. Here's some help, I think. List the commonly held tropes both at the role-playing conceptual level and at the medium-specific level.

edited 13th Dec '10 1:24:55 PM by FastEddie

That's a terrible analogy. Games and movies are completely different

Of course. I said as well it was not a good analogy. But you missed my point. What I was arguing is that having the same 'name' don't make it the same 'thing'. There is a 'action genre' in both movies and video games, but this don't mean they are the same thing.

Tabletop games and video games, on the other hand are the same kind of experience — one just uses minis and dice, while the other uses a computer.

I am sorry, but 'minis' are not, at all, necessery for RPG. In fact, while most RPG system support, in a way or another, minis, very few take them in account when making rules. From the one I know, just D&D does that. Even most of other D20 system still don't use mini as matter of course. Personally, I abominate minis. The more D&D insist to go bakc to them the less I like it.

Anyway, as a player of both video games and RPG, I can say one thing: They are not the same kind of experience. At all. I suppose that if you play the good old Hack and Slash, with a party entering the dungeon, surpassing all the challenges and taking on the final boss it can be very similar. But RPG have grown past being just this for quite some time. They are not the same experience and the differences are most definitively not just the interface (and the RPG interface is not minis, for gods sake!).

Frankly, they just happen to be both 'games'. Is Clue, Risk or Warhammer a video game? Are any of these a RPG? Would you lump the Scotland Yard board game with Ace Attorney, since they are both 'mystery games'? Heck, those who says Fair-Play Whodunnit books are games, should we lump them there too? I would say these tree are more similar in 'gameplay' then a video game RPG and a tabletop RPG, actually.

edited 15th Dec '10 8:53:28 AM by Heatth

Anyway, as a player of both video games and RPG, I can say one thing: They are not the same kind of experience. At all.

But they can be described with the same tropes. You know, the stuff about stats and levels and character roles? Those all apply equally, whether it's video game or tabletop.

Would you lump the Scotland Yard board game with Ace Attorney, since they are both 'mystery games'?

We already do, it's called Mystery Tropes.

edited 15th Dec '10 9:02:56 AM by NativeJovian

You guys needs to recognize that Lumpers and Splitters will never agree on these issues, even with the best argumentation from both sides. The difference in outlooks is even thought to be biological, having to do with different brain structure.

Both outlooks will consider their outlook the "correct" outlook, no matter what is said.

The solution, again, is to do both.

What I am arguing is they can not be described with the same tropes.

Oh, yeah, sorry, my bad. ^^; It was a horrible example. I was asking if you would lump all of these in the same category, but it is not what we are arguing nor how things are done here. We don't do things like Mystery Works here. (although we have a Mystery Literature)

Anyway, I took 20 random tropes from Role-Playing Game to compare if they are shared betwen both video games RPG and tabletop RPG. Particularly tooking notes if the trope only apllies to D&D and related games, but not to other famous RP Gs.

• Adam Smith Hates Your Guts: Video game only. In tabletop RPG, the prices are generally the same everywhere. Rich high level players may expend their endless money in expensive inns or whatever, for fun. Well, apparently D&D4th edition use this for a specific magic, but that is it.
• Battle Theme Music: Video game only, obviously. Unless the GM is particularly awesome.
• Beef Gate: Both. This is a common strategy to avoid (blatant) Rail Roading.
• But Thou Must!: Video game only.
• Critical Encumbrance Failure : Video game only. Well, some, if not most, RPG that bother with rules for that usually have this on 'staps', but it is enough to avoid this trope.
• Disc-One Nuke: Both. However, for tabletop RP Gs that don't have emphasis on equipments, this is mostly inexistent.
• Experience Points: Boths, of course. Although it is not aways called XP, I can't remember a RPG system that don't have them in some way.
• Fetch Quest: Video game only. Side-quests are common in Tabletop RP Gs, but they are never necessery to 'continue'. Heck, the players don't even need to follow the main quest, after all.
• Get on the Boat: Video game only, I guess. The way the trope is described it only make sense for video game. I mean, you can get on a boat in a tabletop RPG, but it is not a cliché as in a video game.
• Go Wait Outside: Video game only.
• Improbable Power Discrepancy: Both. Well, a good GM will try avoid the 'Improbable' bit, but it is a cliché.
• Job System: Video game only. Some classes based system, particularly D20 system, come close, but not quite. And technically the player should be giving an explanation for the class change (not that most bother).
• Karl Marx Hates Your Guts: Both, kinda. D&D uses it a lot, but the GM and the players can always chose to avoid it. I frankly don't know enough of any other system , but I think most avoid it if only because it is not tied in equipments as D&D.
• Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards: Both. This is most obviously in D&D, but even GURPS and World Of Darkness suffer from this. In fact, this is more a cliché for tabletop RPG then video game RPG, I think.
• News Travels Fast. Video game only.
• Optional Party Member: Video game only.
• Player Party: Both. It is very hard to play if the players are not together.
• Randomly Drops: Video game only. D&D has rules for this, but the 'drops' are supposed to be rolled beforehand. And the enemy may use whatever they have in their pockets.
• Save Point: Heh, video game only.
• Sorting Algorithm of Evil: Both, I believe.

So, what we have. Out of 20 random tropes, 12 are video game only. These are not related at all to tabletop RPG. Meanwhile, only 6 are fully shared between the two kinds of RPG. The other 2 tropes (Disc-One Nuke and Karl Marx Hates Your Guts) are for a specific style of RPG (D&D-like), but not for all (unlike many thinks, many tabletop RPG give little to no importance to items and equipments. Furthermore, one of the tropes they share, Sorting Algorithm of Evil, is common to many storylines and games. It is not particularly tied to 'RPG', be it tabletop or video game.

I believe this is enough to sustain they are not the same thing and don't even share that many tropes?

PS: @Fast Eddie,

I don't get, what is your solution, exactly? What do you mean by doing both?

Also, I disagree with you. In your previous post you talked about medium, and I don't think this is the issue. I am arguing that Tabletop RPG and Video Game RPG are fundamentally different things. They do not play in the same way, don't feel the same way and don't are the same thing. If you were talking about Dungeon Craw tropes or Hack&Slash tropes, I would agree to lump everything, be it video game or table top. If we find a video game that plays like a tabletop RPG I would want to put it there, not in Video Game RPG. But Tabletop R Pg and Video Game RPG are far to different. They just happen to share a name.

edited 15th Dec '10 10:24:23 AM by Heatth

Actually, there are more shared than you would think. You just don't notice some of them if you have a good DM, and a lot of times it's hard to give table top examples that aren't Troper Tales. I'm only listing the ones I disagree with.

• But Thou Must!: Both. This is actually one of the ways DM's will railroad. They'll give you choices that effectively amount to, yes, I'll do it, and you won't be able to progress with the plot until you do.
• Critical Encumbrance Failure : Both. This is actually in the core rules of D&D and many other common systems. That's where the video game trope comes from in the first place.
• Fetch Quest: Both. This is a common sort of thing to send a party of adventures on. It's a good way for a DM to add a little bulk to their story line.
• Go Wait Outside: I've definitely seen this happen in table top. It's often tied to Fetch Quest in that a lot of times you'll be sent off to go get something while some powerful wizard fixes your artefact only to find it stolen when you get back. Or you just get told to go to the in, rest and recharge your spells.
• Improbable Power Discrepancy: Both. Well, a good GM will try avoid the 'Improbable' bit, but it is a cliché.
• Job System: Both. You just haven't played the right systems. Even D&D can be this if you're playing gestalt.
• News Travels Fast: Both. Seriously, your ST will have everyone know long before you get back to town.
• Player Party: Both. It is very hard to play if the players are not together.
• Save Point: Both, but when table top uses it gets weird and it tends to be a bit more in universe. Mage The Awakening has save points if you're a master of time.

With the addition of these nine tropes to your seven initial ones, we have 16 out of 20. Yes, that's some serious overlap. Even before that, they shared almost half their tropes. Here's what I propose. It's a hierarchy of increasingly specific. Tropes go in the highest level the apply.

• Role-Playing Game: All tropes shared between both mediums.
  • Table Top Role Playing Game: All tropes unique to table top.
  • Video Game Role Playing Game: All tropes unique to video games.
    • Eastern Role-Playing Game: All tropes unique to eastern RPG video games.
    • Western Role-Playing Game: All tropes unique to western RPG video games.

edited 15th Dec '10 10:42:55 AM by shimaspawn

I'll try. I am a Lumper, so it may only make sense to Lumpers.

Yes, clearly, video RPG and paper-n-dice RPG have many differences for an observer. The two activities look nothing alike. One guy is in a crowd rolling dice and the other is absorbed in a monitor, fiddlin' with his mouse and keyboard. Different tools. That is the Splitter view.

The Lumper view is: both guys are "being" a Bad Axe Dwarf. Dice and mice are just the things they are expressing their Dwarfness with.

So, have an index that talks about the things that people "be" for the Lumpers and an index about using specific tools to do the "being" for the Splitters.

edited 15th Dec '10 11:12:29 AM by FastEddie

I propose making three indexes (even if they end up as separate pages or on the same pages). One is for tropes in both video game and tabletop RPGs, one for tropes particular to video games, and another for tropes particular to tabletop games.

• But Thou Must! Just in extremely Railroading. As in "the GM forces the player character to act regardless of what the player wants". The GM can try hard to invoke this trope until the players give up, but going Off Rails is always a option. There is no pre-made choices so this trope does not exist. This is why there is no 'Tabletop' folder in this trope page, but there is a 'Tabletop adaptation'.
• Critical Encumbrance Failure: D&D actually has 3 'steps' of how much what you are holding affects you. Each new 'step' the slower you gets. This is not very realistic, but it is not a 'critical failure'. You do not go from 'free moviment' to 'unable to move', as the trope says.
• Fetch Quest: You are mistaking it for a side-quest. A Fetch Quest is a unrelated quest that must be played to advance in the game. As I said, an Tabletop RPG game doesn't need even the players to bother going for the main quest to have the game to 'advance'. (in fact, every non-video game example is wrong by definition)
• Go Wait Outside: Not quite the same thing, I believe. But I will concede this.
• Improbable Power Discrepancy: Yes, I agree. In fact, I said so in my previous post.
• Job System: The D&D class system is not quite the same as the job system. For one thing you can't change at any time you want nor what you wear is related to what class you are right now. And you are supposed to explain why you change your class. But, yeah, I haven't played that many systems. Mostly the big ones. D20, GURPS, World Of The Darkness.
• News Travels Fast: I have no idea what ST is (well, it can be 'strength', but taht don't fit). Anyway, I've never heard of it as a RPG cliché. Any GM can play this trope, of course, but I don't believe it is all that common.
• Player Party: Of course. When have I denied it?
• Save Point: I am very curious in how a tabletop Save Point would work. But it is not a Tabeltop RPG trope. Sure, there may be one or two examples here and there, but it is not part of the genre nor is it particularly common there.

So, out of the nine you said, you repeated 2 from me (why you did that?), and we disagreed in all but 2. And of what we disagree, I am pretty sure you are wrong about 3 (the first 3). Read these tropes again, please.

I don't disagree with your proposal, though. My original complain was that the Role-Playing Game was too focused on Video Game RPG only. Going as far as saying to go to another page for "Dungeons And Drgons etc".

PS:"Heatth puts down sword, picks up pen...Edit Post"...?

Are this comments context sensitive? ^^;

PS:

I get what you are saying. I have to say, however, that your example can apply to any game. One guy in the TV can also "be" a fat plummer who is into hallucinogens. But no one says Super Mario is a RPG.

Of course, you have no real choice in what the plummer is doing. But, for many video game RP Gs, specially Eastern RP Gs, you don't have choice either. Your standard Visual Novel has more control over the main character actions and decision then your standard Eastern RPG (and, frankly, most Western RP Gs too). Despite the name, a Role-Playing Game is not defined by 'role playing. Specially not in a video game. That is why many says the genre 'RPG', when applied to video games, is named incorrectly. I would preffer not enter there, though.

edited 15th Dec '10 11:43:18 AM by Heatth

Sorry about the repeats. Hadn't had my coffee yet and didn't do as good a job cleaning things as I should have. ST= storyteller. White Wolf's equivalent of DM/GM. I play mostly their systems these days. Sorry. Force of habit.

• But Thou Must!: Play a table top pre-made module some time. It shows up a lot in those. I know the D&D tourney I run at GenCon uses it all the time.
• Critical Encumbrance Failure: Not sure which version of D&D you're talking about, but there have been versions that played like this trope. It shows up in several other systems as well.
• Fetch Quest: I'm not mistaking it for a side quest. I'm looking at it as one of those times where you need to go get a specific artefact to defeat the big bad. It's not something new.
• Job System in D&D is only if you're playing by gestalt rules which basically boil down to Job System for D&D. There are other games that use the same mechanics, but that's the most well known.
• Save Point: It's complicated and involves basically going back to a point in time and space before other shit happened with all the knowledge that you have of what happened before, but no one else remembers. Not that different from a video game actually. In universe it's actually based on video games.

p.s. What about Super Mario RPG? There's a whole line of Mario RPGs that play as RPG games. They have levels. Skills. Attributes. There are character choices and interactions. Those are RPGs.

edited 15th Dec '10 12:23:00 PM by shimaspawn

Oh, yes, that is an interesting point, some pen-and-paper RPGs are run from a booklet/module and have stuff like But Thou Must! (though you wouldn't expect that from a tabletop game).