During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
If no one objects, I'll add my Aquarion Evol rewrite and Pailsen from Armored Trooper VOTOMS to Anime And Manga Monsters.
Isn't Pailsen already there?
I meant on the sandbox
Oh, absolutely.
Would the T-1000 from Terminator 2: Judgement Day qualify as a complete monster?
It's just a machine doing what it's programmed for
I don't think so, its been a while since I saw that movie, but I have to question whether the T-1000 has true moral agency, rather then just being a machine programmed by Skynet, plus I don't think the T-1000 did anything heinous enough to count. T-800 in the first movie was killing any woman with the name Sarah Connor, I don't think the T-1000 ever had the same body count.
Moving on, should I cut all the examples from the Hulk Vs. YMMV? Also it might be nice that once we establish who is a CM, that we edit entries in other tropes that contradict that. Frollo is listed in the Obliviously Evil section, which I don't believe for second, being a self righteous jerk doesn't make one oblivious. Movie Red Skull and Clarence Boddicker have entries in the Pet the Dog section, we already discussed why Boddicker doesn't count and I don't think Red Skull loaning Zola his car counts either.
edited 28th Oct '13 6:02:58 PM by TheOverlord
I think their body counts are pretty equal, but I don't think it's possible for a Terminator to be a CM
Yeah, a Terminator just doesn't have moral agency.
Yeah, those aren't Pet the Dog at all. Like, even a little. That's even a more dangerous route for Zola!
Anyway I also think Obliviously Evil should be limited to people with a skewed grip on reality, being a Knight Templar doesn't make you oblivious.
edited 28th Oct '13 6:59:55 PM by TheOverlord
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Or people who don't even realize they're doing something bad.
Also, was there a decision for Sora from Air Gear?
- Sora from Air Gear. He's an absolute bastard who emotionally abused his brother and his girlfriend, the two people who loved him and trusted him most. He even brainwashed the latter, and when they stopped being useful to him, he threw them aside like trash. While he does have a slightly sympathetic past that paints him as a failure, this justification rings hollow when it's shown that he's orders of magnitude more powerful than every single rider except Ikki. Furthermore, he remorselessly killed several friends who were once in the same situation as him and who even helped him, all in the name of gaining personal power. He is either directly or indirectly responsible for all of the deaths in the series and he doesn't even think highly enough of the lives he's taken to feel something like satisfaction, let alone remorse or regret. After he is defeated, he spits in the face of redemption and even tries to turn his girlfriend into a bomb so that he could kill everyone in the tower in which he was fighting so that even if he were to lose, his opponents wouldn't win, and he only gave up afterwards when faced with overwhelming power that convinced him he would never be able to succeed. Even his terrifyingly Ax-Crazy brother looks tame and compassionate in comparison.
On YMMV.Air Gear, someone edited the entry to match the entry on Anime & Manga, but oddly enough, their edit reason said "Going by this thread, Sora doesn't really count, given his backstory".
This is also on YMMV.Air Gear:
- Magaki of the Skull'Saders. He's a vicious bastard and a confirmed rapist who enjoys raping high school students.
Yeah, we ruled Sora counted a long while ago when he was brought up in here. If someone has a reason why not, let them bring him here
Okay, should I add him to the sandbox? And what should we do with Magaki?
If Magaki is the only rapist, he counts.
Alright. Let's cut Obito
Cleric of Banjo
What did he do (or I guess didn't do?)?
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
He stood around and argued with Naruto while tons of retcons were thrown around.
What "redeeming quality" did they give Obito? I don't care if we have to cut him, but I would like to know why.
Also, if we cut Obito, the Naruto page is going to have to go, as that'll leave us with only two examples.
Regret, love for Rin, probable redemption, etc etc
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Here's some FOTNS writeups:
- Uighur is the sadistic warden of the prison-city Cassandra, dumping ground for the warlord Raoh's few living enemies. Cassandra is nicknamed the 'City of Wailing Demons' due to the unimaginable hardships its inmates endure, hardships that Uighur is so delighted by that he alters prisoner treatments to get just the right pitch and timbre of lamentation. He is extremely proud of his prison's reputation as The Alcatraz, stating that "the legend of Cassandra is my legend as well", and maintains its zero-escape record by gruesomely killing any prisoners who try to escape, as well as anyone from outside who tries to break them out (the latter along with a cell of randomly-selected prisoners, just to make a point). His own staff fare little better - for example, his gate guards, Raiga and Fuuga, are kept in line by the threat that if they disobey him, their younger brother will be pecked to death by Uighur's pet eagle. The only people he tries to avoid killing are those willing to die, because that spoils half the fun, and he'd much prefer to instil the appropriate fear of death in them before murdering them really horribly.
- Jakoh, Evil Chancellor of the Celestial Empire, was never a nice person, waxing gleefully enthusiastic about infanticide when the Empire turned out to have one heir too many, but when Raoh came to their village, sensed his evil, and advised the man's adoptive brother Falco to kill him on the spot to avert future suffering, few knew how right he would be. After Raoh's death created a power vacuum, Jakoh moved to fill it, using the young Celestial Emperor Rui as a Puppet King and manipulating Falco, her oath-sworn bodyguard, into doing his dirty work by using her as a hostage, keeping her in such unpleasant conditions that she eventually went blind. The Celestial Empire was exceptionally repressive, rewarding the wealthy and brutalising the poor whilst punishing dissent with death so liberally that the concentration camps overflowed and malcontents were executed in the streets. Eventually, Jakoh's paranoia led him to endorse outright genocide, ordering the reluctant Falco to obliterate the nations formed under the Hokuto Shinken and Nanto Seiken martial art schools and beating him when he failed. His hatred of Hokuto was not the only legacy of his encounter with Raoh - Jakoh had an intense fear of the dark. As a result of this, he would lapse into murderous tantrums when the lights dimmed too much, and worked thousands of slaves, old and young alike, to death in keeping the capital of the Celestial Empire brightly-lit. Throughout it all, he never showed any remorse or regret for his actions, instead taking sadistic delight in Falco's disgust and horror at the latest atrocity he would force him to perform.
edited 29th Oct '13 3:11:02 PM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
Fine work. I think we oughta put them up then and lock the FOTNS monster page
@Lightysnake
That last post on Obito really doesn't answer my question, particularly since those of us in this thread, including you yourself, have repeatedly dismissed Obito's "love" for Rin as being an entirely self-centred Stalker with a Crush style obsession with a Rin who bears little resemblance to the real thing.
I know that we have repeatedly said that Obito would have to be cut one day. That is fine. But I am not going to give my vote to cut until somebody tells me what has actually happened. And this: "Regret, love for Rin, probable redemption, etc etc" tells me nothing.
@laculus
I'm iffy about the number of examples that seem to be going on the page for FOTNS. That said, the write-ups themselves are solid, and tell me, a guy who has never seen the show, everything I need to know. Good work.
edited 29th Oct '13 2:20:52 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I just read chapter 653 of Naruto and nothing's happened to make Obito disqualify. It could happen next chapter, but not right now.
edited 29th Oct '13 2:34:54 PM by VeryMelon
@Sophia
That should just be "struck down by his masters". Have fixed it.