During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Even the Yevetha had a pretty nightmarish Freudian Excuse...
I've taken the liberty of adding the qualifiers to the Star Wars page..
Abeloth and Belok Rhal I can see keeping, btw. Abeloth especialy, but Belok is a nasty piece of work.
Okay, but what about the tub, from what I understand, the episode was pretty serious (aside from the villain song, rape story and the fact that it was a tub), I know it sounds like Narm, but appearently the episode was written like the one with jeff from family guy or the abbridged cooler dbz special. The tub was like Cooler and Jeff in that he was played serious. I know it's a tub, but still, it killed four people onscreen and was played pretty seriously. The episode was orrigonaly written as a Downer Ending series finale, but later got retconed into a non canon episode. If the series had not been re newed, it would have ended like that.
Look, if you have to keep saying "I know it's a tub but..." then it probably isn't an example. Move on.
Foreign Troper
I just saw that it's spelled Agruss, not Arguss
I also added Vul Isen and Krayt on the Legacy YMMV.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Cleric of Banjo
A couple of examples wanted to inquire about:
First, I see there are still several on Death Note- iirc, there was agreement on cutting at least some of them (especially the bit character that Word of God supposedly said was the evilest person in the series). I could maybe see keeping Higuchi, but I think the others likely pale compared to Light.
On Mr. Sardonicus:
- Complete Monster: Sardonicus. Castle only filmed the ending for if the audience poll would deem him guilty because he expected it to turn out that way every time.
I think he may qualify, but this is a non-reason for him to qualify (I'll give more information later on, but his bad ending is pretty much the same in the original story, and I think both the story and the movie itself (outside of Castle's shtick at the end) suggest he's capable of redemption but not deserving it at that particular moment).
- Complete Monster: Hardly needs to be said.
Again, this may be a legitimate example/examples, but this is a non-reason.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Of the demon princes...lesse...There are five:
Malagate the Woe
Kokor Hekkus
Viole Farushe
Lens Larque
Treesong
Of them...Treesong is a no. Far too nuts to qualify to the point he has clear split personalities that are eternally in conflict. Kokor Hekkus is the best fit as he's a serial killer who vivisects human beings to obtain substances from them. Now, the beauty of this series is the Demon Princes are a group in the strictest sense. While they did operate as such in the past, each individual book is the hero hunting them down and destroying one at a time, so each has a book devoted to himself and his misdeeds. Malagate is the only nonhuman, but it's made clear he's evil by humanity and his species' standards. Lens Larque is a sadist and trickster, who plans to set explosives all over a planet to make the shape of his grinning face (he's kind of a prick)
Viole Farushe is the epitome of Stalker with a Crush who had an obsession with a girl in the past and seeks to replicate her and brainwash her into loving him...to do this, he's created a forced breeding program and something called the Palace of Love where the most beautiful beings on the planet are enslaved to him.
So, really, except for Treesong, all of the other four can qualify on their own merits. (And need I say they have some of the best villain names ever?)
edited 1st May '13 10:34:53 AM by Lightysnake
Cleric of Banjo
I haven't read the Demon Princes yet (really meaning to), but yeah, I got the impression that all of them would probably qualify except Treesong.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Found some bad examples for Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magick Obscura:
On both the CM page and the YMMV page:
I don't think that Stout meets the general heinous standard since he doesn't even kill anybody. He's a terrible person, but most other sidequest villains have at least one corpse to their name. Cut.
From the YMMV page only:
Player Characters cannot count for actions taken at prompting from the player. Cut.
All of that is Offscreen Villainy. Cut.
Cleric of Banjo
Oh, another bad example from Yojimbo:
- Complete Monster: Unosuke seems to just like shooting people.
Besides not really being a good reason to keep, I'm not sure if he's objectively heinous enough (he's one of those "worst in the work" but not necessarily worst enough examples).
He's definitely a Blood Knight/ Psycho for Hire, but he's in a movie about two rival gangster families fighting for power (he belongs to the moderately worst of the two (both are bad), and that's really only because his family previously worked for the other family).
While he is sort of the major antagonist of the movie, objectively speaking, he's just a mook (albeit an Elite Mook).
Not sure whether any of his expies in the various recylcings qualify.
edited 1st May '13 1:53:59 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Updated the Flash entry.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Hold on, a playable character CAN count if the game requires them to do horrible evil things and it's not just Video Game Cruelty Potental. The example says you have to kill an entire village.
Should I cut both American Dad examples?
jjj
It sounds like, though, while you have to burn the village if you take the evil path, it's your choice to take the evil path in the first place. Snip it.
Hamburger Time is correct. You only destroy the village on an alternate "evil" path through the main plot.
Ok, we just need to decide on Abeloth and Belok Rhal and then the Star Wars page will be done.
Reading about Abeloth's backstory on Wookieepedia she sounds like a cut: she was in a Mayfly–December Romance with the Father of Mortis, and in a desperate attempt to become immortal so she could stay with him she drank some Artifact of Doom liquid and turned into an Eldritch Abomination. Not sure on the other guy, either, as he seems to be essentially a named Elite Mook.
edited 1st May '13 8:18:09 PM by HamburgerTime
Belok Rhal's crimes... quoting: "He executes an unarmed Jedi apprentice in cold blood, brutally puts down a peaceful protest by gunning down the protesters, and then shoots and kills a reporter recording the entire thing, all without a second thought."
Abeloth is a cut, yes
A total has-been.
example says you have to kill an entire village.
If that's an automatic qualifier, than Regina Mills from Once Upon a Time ought to go on this trope due to what the recent episode revealed she had done.
Of course there already are Hate Dumb people (especially on Television Without Pity) who'd insist she belongs on the trope anyway.
Just to explain the rule, Anew Man...generally a player character can't qualify if the actions are selected by the player. So your PC in Baldur's Gate and Corvo Attano of Dishonored can never qualify.
On the other hands, if Kratos qualified (he doesn't), we'd let him in as his nasty actions are in cutscenes and quick time events, which aren't selected by the player in branching paths, but more in an interactive movie.
about regina, though...glancing at Once Upon a Time character page reveals she genuinely loves her child
Cleric of Banjo
I don't think Anew Man is proposing Regina as an example, but for the record:
The character must personally engage in a series of truly horrendous acts, and the story makes no attempt to gloss these over or present them in a positive light.
She fits that one. Although, the story does sometimes qualify a very evil act by showing her motivation as along the lines of a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds.
The character's terribleness must be played seriously at all times...
Probably mostly a fit, but she is sometimes Laughably Evil- but it is a case where the audience would fit her actions humorous rather than the other characters. In terms of how other characters react, she's understandably not very popular, but there have been instances of other characters feeling a modicum of sympathy for her.
There is no adequate justification or Freudian Excuse to balance out the misdeeds.
I'd say she actually has a pretty good excuse, what with her horribly abusive mother and Rumplestiltskin manipulating her into being evil/making worse choices.
The character must show no regret or remorse for their actions, however terrible. It's better if they obviously enjoy it, but complete lack of emotion or caring will suffice.
While some disagree with this, my impression is that Regina shows remorse for her actions on multiple occasions- the problem is that it doesn't last.
Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption without being considered a Karma Houdini. The only way the story could come to anything resembling a happy ending is if they die or are otherwise removed. A Heel Face Turn is out of the question, and nobody would believe it if it happened. There can be no Redemption Equals Death for this character, and no Fate Worse Than Death is too extreme.
Eh, hard to tell, but the idealistic morality of the series and generally presentation does seem to suggest she might be redeemable- at worst, it would be Redemption Equals Death, but it seems possible she could be redeemed and still live under some circumstances (most likely amnesia I would think).
And, she has some loved ones that she cares about.
edited 1st May '13 9:36:23 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Alright, sounds like Abeloth is a cut. So, what about Belok Rhal?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Probably mostly a fit, but she is sometimes Laughably Evil- but it is a case where the audience would fit her actions humorous rather than the other characters.
Like The Joker?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Cleric of Banjo
Short answer sort of, long answer no...
The issue of the Joker's humorousness as a comparison is relevant in terms of characters (like himself) who have no redeeming qualities, so I'm hesitant to compare Regina to the Joker to the extent that it implies she is similarly devoid of other redeeming qualities (as mentioned above, she fails most of the criteria for being a Complete Monster).
It also doesn't seem the best comparison because the Joker (and similar characters) take a consistently humorous (to themselves and the audience) attitude toward villainy.
With Regina, it has more to do with her hammy persona and the apposite digs she often makes about/at the goody-two-shoes protagonists.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
I'd like to nominate another evil angel from Supernatural to the Complete Monster list. She's called Naomi.
With Zachariah gone, she's seems to have taken the place at the head of the Celestial Bureaucracy of Heaven. She had spent the entire season turning Castiel into a Manchurian Agent who'd only answer to her instead of the Word of God. Thus, she takes him into a little dimension to give him orders he can't resist-which includes killing younger Angels or even training him to kill Dean over, and over, and over again. She also wants to possess the 'Angel Tablet', which the Word of God made Castiel the guardian of. To do this? After she learns Castiel is using a very good trick to exist in the same restaurant all over the world (think a clone or copy of himself in each and every one, and if an Angel appears he'd just disappear from that particular place) she personally slaughters everyone in said restaurant and leaves a sole survivor to greet Castiel...with their eyes burned out spilling a Madness Mantra. When Castiel calls her out on this, she brushes it off saying they've done it before, will do it again, so it'd just be better to give the Angel Tablet to her. She tries to paint herself as a Well Intentioned Extremist, but is nothing but a sadistic monster who doesn't care two licks of who is killed.
Can we perhaps stop jumping the gun two episodes before the season finale?
Naomi isn't even as heinous as Zachariah or Michael or Raphael yet and her motivations are unclear for now.
