Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Yep, thankfuly you don't have to, they have already been cut from the film's ymmv page, now they just need to be cut from the monster film page.

edited 10th Apr '13 6:13:26 PM by bobg

Yeah. Read it a few minutes ago. As impressed as I was with the genius story-telling, we should still wait to cut until the storyline's over (or Orochimaru dies) to see if he's being sincere or just waiting for another opportunity to backstab Sasuke.

edited 10th Apr '13 6:15:43 PM by OccasionalExister

Okay, yeah, no. That's not a redemption at all. Orochimaru is just kicking back saying "Eh, do what you want, and I'll go by your decisions." He has already displayed clear signs of sadism (mocking the dead kages every opportunity he gets), and has confessed he plans to grab Sasuke's body as soon as possible

his commentary on how Kabuto was wrong to emulate him? Orochimaru is one of the most egotistical men alive. What he's done now? He gains the benefit of a total removal of all his rivals from the equation.

This is not redemption.

Should we put Hugo Strange and the Penguin from Batman: Arkham City on the "Never Again" list? Strange being a Well-Intentioned Extremist and Penguin for not being heinous enough (and having an Even Evil Has Standards moment).

Now, unless their name is Joker, I can easily make a case why any villain in the Batman: Arkham Series doesn't qualify, but Strange and Penguin have been requested the most consistently.

Changed my mind about strange, yeah I can see him going on the never again list. As for Penguin, well, I say we wait until arkham origins comes out, and see if he is in it and if he is, what he does.

What about Calendar man? Or is he disqualified too due to his murders being offscreen?

edited 10th Apr '13 7:40:27 PM by bobg

I'm back, but my PC's crap. Just going back to page 445.

Laura Gabriel, CSI: Yeah, I'd say she's a Keep.

Dr. Berg, Gundam Wing spinoff: I'd also say Keep.

Nicolai from Resident Evil: Gonna vote Keep on him too; ditto DC!Alexia.

Morgan Walker, Highlander: Also gonna say Keep.

Josh Freely and Rayanne Truitt, Cold Case: Also Keepers (my, aren't we on a streak...).

Chuck examples: Cut all; maayybe bring back Shaw if someone makes a good enough argument for it.

Buddy Love from The Nutty Professor: You have gotta be kidding me. Cut.

The Nibiru entity from Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated: Hey, Nyarlathotep, you never told me you had a little cousin as bad as you! Definite Keep. Add me to those shocked that thing's from a Scooby-Doo series; it's kinda like if My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic actually did come up with a qualifying villain down the line in shock factor.

Reverend Brown, Inherit The Wind: Agree with Cut. This is AFAIK a non-supernatural setting, he doesn't have any power to literally damn anyone.

Henry Lawson, Mass Effect: Ugh, Keep.

Conal Cochran, Halloween III Season Of The Witch: Oooohh yeah, I remember him. He turned what first looked to me like a hokey, gimmicky movie into one hell of a Nightmare Fuel tank. Keep.

Strausser, Revolution: Don't know the series, but if he's worse than comparable villains I vote Keep.

Alonzo Quinn, Person Of Interest: A successful Bitch in Sheep's Clothing CM? Not everyday we see those. Anyway, Keep for now.

Savior examples: Aaaahh damnit, the only thing those asshole serbian apologists are good for is internet shouting matches where you can systematically tear them appart (metaphorically speaking of course) because their heads are too far up their own arses to Know When to Fold 'Em to a ridiculous degree. Kill It with Fire.

The Shining examples: Yeah, Cut'em.

Jaape(?) Botha, The Power Of One: Hmm, he could count if exanded properly methinks. Tentative Keep.

Jerry Dandridge, Fright Night: Cut Original!Jerry. Expand Remake!Jerry if he counts.

NipTuck examples: How amusingly appropriate to Cut them.

Henry, The Good Son: Poor quality of the film notwithstanding, inclined to Keep; he's not quite generic IMO.

The Djinn, presumably from Wishmaster: Yeah, Keep him too.

Mrs. Lenz, Black Christmas remake: Wat. Da. Fuk. Well, despite their Mark Millar or Crossed bad guy-worthy acts, Cut'em if love's involved.

Ahtam Zahidov, Queen And Country: Urgh. My irrational hatred of rapists aside (it's not so irrational that I can't shut it out in the name of objectivity), Keep.

Zero Context Examples @11251: Expand or Cut Yasunori Kato (though from what I remember from the franchise I doubt he counts), Xavier Daniels. Just Cut Zedd and Maynard (everybody's an asshole, they're not much worse) as well as Xerxes (Unreliable Narrator plus not that much worse than the protagonists). Fully agree with Ambar's commentaries on the matter with one caveat: Miller apparently actually did the research regarding Sparta and Persia, but ignored much of it in favor of telling the story he wanted to tell. Which just kinda makes it worse.

Jerry Boorman, Damages: Bit more elaboration needed IMO, but leaning Keep.

Examples @11258: Cut Wild Arms 4 guy. Expand or Cut everything else.

Dr Psyche's Within Temptation example: Looks good, voting Keep.

Bobby Ferguson Jr., Regular Show: Gonna say Cut due to Occasional Exister's points @11281.

Posted my calls on X Files candidates on the YMMV thread. Agree that it needs its own subpage.

Sweeney Todd: Cut Mrs. Lovett, but Keep Film!Judge Turpin. Aside from his acts (which I feel have their own level of heinousness separate from that of a prolific Serial Killer), there's also the fact that he's the root cause for just about every other evil act in the work.

Yu Gi Oh The Abridged Series examples: My sides. Cut.

Group examples @11314: Cut all, though Reinhard Heydrich in Conspiracy and Krug in The Last House On The Left (yes, I watched it -the original anyway- and I liked it. I'm fucked-up like that) are still Keeps, as is Jordan from Dexter.

Norman Osborn, Ultimate Spider-Man: Bit too soon methinks, but looks like he fits otherwise. Leaning Keep, but withholding until a bit more is known/shown.

Naruto apparent twist: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- *AHEM* I hate when they pull that shit. It was retarded when Fushigi Yugi did it for Nakago almost 2 decades back, and it's still retarded now. Really, really hope it's not genuine.

Batman Arkham Series: Still on the fence personally concerning Hugo Strange, but seeing as I doubt I'll convince those who disagree in case I decide he counts as a CM I don't mind much.

edited 10th Apr '13 8:21:41 PM by Paireon

Re: Savior: Wow, reading about that film on the CM page made it sound like a poignant film about how all sides in war are perfectly capable of atrocities, but apparently it's just excuse-mongering from the guilty side. Support cutting everyone.

Another group example on the film page is the staff from The Island.

RE Conspiracy, I'm not sure anyone could count from the film. Heydrich is sort of the worst of a bad lot, but all of the characters are completely reprehensible, which makes it hard to apply "evil by the standards of the story".

edited 10th Apr '13 8:35:11 PM by Hodor

Hmm, good point (loath as I am to admit it, since IMO Heydrich was about as close to a Real Life CM as you can get).

Welcome back. By the way, what happened to the pirates of dark water example you brought up?

edited 10th Apr '13 8:42:58 PM by bobg

Oh, there's loads of people I'd add to a Real Life CM page if one was allowed (though I'm thankful one isn't). Amon Goeth, for one, was actually toned down for Schindlers List due to Reality Is Unrealistic...

edited 10th Apr '13 8:43:05 PM by HamburgerTime

@Hamburger Time

I haven't seen the film, but reading the page for it, that's exactly what Saviour sounds like. Did Bosnians commit war crimes? Yes. But not to the degree that film wants you to think they did. If you ever want all the gory details I'm happy to talk in PM. As you may have gathered it is one of my personal peeves.

RE: Conspiracy. I think I have to agree with Hodor that in a film about the planning of a genocide, everybody is too heinous to qualify.

edited 10th Apr '13 9:00:42 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Thanks for explaining those characterization tags.

Regarding Goeth: Should we mention that Film!Goeth was toned down?

@TV Rulez Again: Gotcha I'll add it.

While there have not been that many votes, so far, there are several people who have voted yes and no one who has voted no to dr pschyes within temptations example. Should we add it?

Also parigon, I just wanted to remind you of your Pirates Of Dark Water example. I do not want examples to be forgoten.

Goeth was even worse in real life? How'd he manage that?

We're not allowed to mention that, though.

I actually tried adding it once; it was deleted.

Thing is, though, among the many, many problems with having a Real Life CM page is that if you do enough digging you're liable to find some remote loved one or other for pretty much any historical villain. Last thing we need is this thread doubling in size over debates like "Yeah, this guy tried to wipe out half his country, but I just read he genuinely liked his mother/brother/wife/fourth cousin/hamster; does that disqualify him?"

Moral Event Horizon had a Real Life section once though. Had you standard Hitler/Stalin/Mao atrocities of course (though Mao's culpability in stuff like the Great Famine is a Flame War waiting to happen even among China experts) plus some more recent stuff like Robert Mugabe rigging the last Zimbabwean election and Than Shwe ignoring the plight of tsunami victims in 2005.

edited 11th Apr '13 8:55:50 AM by HamburgerTime

Don't need a Real Life CM Page, but to not allowing it pointed out that Goeth was toned down :(

Yeah, HT nailed it. If we allow real life examples, we get into a real sketchy 'who is truly irredeemable' and it's only a matter of time until a flame war occurs...can you imagine if a fan of the Ottomans tried to add Vlad the Impaler and an offended Romanian troper tried to add Mehmet the Conqueror? Or the hell that'd occur when someone added Genghis Khan? It'd only be a matter of time till someone tried to add the Prophet Muhammad, too.

Hell, just imagine the US Presidents! None of us want to deal with the hell when someone tries to add Andrew Jackson? Or when a hard right-winger adds Barack Obama (Or someone adds George W. Bush?)

It'd be a nightmare

Goeth being toned down for the film is trivia, but not something that can be added to a Complete Monster entry which are supposed to be strictly limited to the work's fictional depiction.

here are a few writeups, btw

• From Highlander The Series, we have Morgan Walker. Walker is unique amongst other Highlander villains in that he's been a slaver for centuries. While Walker once dealt in the Atlantic Slave Trade, in modern times he uses his job as a modeling agent to capture young women for the sex trade. In prior years, Walker had an attachment to a slave named Charlotte, but after he suspected she had an affair, he killed her throwing her out of a high window and displays no remorse for her death. When hunting Methos, the immortal she had the affair with, Walker also kidnaps the daughter of Methos's good friend with full intention to kill or sell her should her father not betray Methos.

• Jerry Dandridge from FrightNight2011 stands in stark contrast to the original film's charming and even likable monster. The film opens with Jerry slaughtered a family, including the teenage son, out of suspicion the boy was spying on him. Jerry reveals himself to be a savage predator who kidnaps and feeds on people, keeping them locked up in his private larder. When Charlie Brewster tries to rescue a woman Jerry held hostage, Jerry had been toying with them both andhad already turned her, letting her die in the sunlight solely to mess with Charlie. He's more than happy to tears the throats out of innocent bystanders and turns Charlie's girlfriend into a vampire in front of a helpless Charlie, and later to mocks as he makes out with her. While Dandridge in the original held a certain elegance, the remake's version is nothing more than a savage, sadistic predator

edited 11th Apr '13 9:32:02 AM by Lightysnake

Good write-ups. For Jerry, he also turns Charlie's best friend (Christopher Mintz-Plasse) into a vampire and sends him to kill Charlie and Peter.