During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That seems to be pretty sound reasoning as to why Overhaul doesn't count.
Overhaul never struck me as a complete monster up till the very end.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Bmw devil
edited 25th Nov '17 12:24:28 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Jack and King Jack (as stale as I think CM incarnations of Jack the Ripper are, this sounds like a cool, fresh take on the concept), Reg, Molstrom, and the BMI killer.
Avatar by Leafsnake
Reginald sounds like a
Since he got enough votes here's my write up of the Doppleganger from Twin Peaks
- The Doppelgänger, born from Cooper's entrance in the Black Lodge at the end of the original series, cut a slew of human suffering across America for 25 years. He houses the previous Big Bad, BOB, and the pair gorge themselves on the pain they cause. Upon his emergence, he tracks down Major Briggs, one of the few to realize his deception and kills him. He later visits the comatose Audrey Horne and rapes her, conceiving Richard Horne, before dropping off the grid. When he reemerges, he poses as Cooper to get close to Coop's old secretary, Diane, manipulating and raping her before imprisoning her in the Black Lodge. From there he builds a criminal empire with a number of extortions and murders to his name. When he learns that his girlfriend Darya is plotting against him, he beats and murders her. When Cooper reappears he orders his subordinate, Duncan Todd, to kill him and when Todd fails The Doppelgänger has Todd and his assistant killed. When he encounters his son, Richard, years later he puts the young man into a trap meant for him and watches emotionlessly as Richard is electrocuted to death.
I didn't include his murder of Ray, it'd take too long to explain who Ray was and why his murder was a bad thing.
edited 24th Nov '17 11:40:46 PM by DrPsyche
Solid, Psyche!
As for Overhaul/Kai Chisaki...I think he's unique enough to surpass the heinous standard for the show, and what he does to Eri is very, very dark, plus he's the first villain to score a kill on a named hero. However, while he's faithless, treacherous and callous to everyone else, he seems to have feelings to his old boss, and genuinely seems to think he can revive him later to show him everything was worth it.
BMW Devil
- Time After Time: Dr. John Leslie Stevenson is a London surgeon who moonlights as Jack the Ripper. Nearly caught after claiming his sixth victim, Stevenson flees to 1979 San Francisco in a Time Machine built by H. G. Wells. Finding he quite likes this future, where warfare has been so revolutionized that Stevenson considers himself an amateur, the Ripper decides to slaughter his way through time, going further into the future any time he feels like he might get caught. True to form, the Ripper starts killing his way through various women, all while pursuing Wells to get a key required to anchor the machine in a certain time. After learning that Wells has acquired a Love Interest in the form of banker Amy Robbins, Stevenson decides to fake her murder by dismembering another woman and taking Amy hostage, threatening to slit her throat if Wells doesn't give him the key.
Goku Black
and
Dr Psyche and demonduckofdoom add doppleganger and ripper to the drafts.
The MILF Virus
BMW Devil and Reginald.
The BMW Satan.
Avatar by Leafsnake
Where's the draft page located again? It's been a long ass time since I did a write up.
Look for one of ACW’s posts and click the first link.
to the greatest and fastest BMW Devil! 
BMW Devil
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BMW Devil.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Stupid question.....If a person driving recklessly that cause some people to hurt (but not dying) due to he want to save a woman that has been kidnapped contributes to heinous standard or not?
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
It depends on how intentional it is and how excessive it is. If the villain kidnaps the hero's wife and threatens to kill her, but the hero kills dozens of innocents (by accident) in order to get to her, then the hero in question is not exactly a hero and the villain probably isn't a CM because the hero did more damage.
Accidentally killing a dozen people to save one person > villain kidnapping and threatening to kill one person without intentionally or unintentionally getting a horde of innocents massacred.
edited 25th Nov '17 7:50:24 AM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Goku Black
Guys found these weirdly written entries on Hitman 2016. I want to play the game later but am unfamiliar with it now so could NTG explain these people as he is familiar with it. I'm pretty sure they don't count though as they just sound like jerks.
- Complete Monster: Given the nature of 47's targets, it's a given you'll come across really bad people. However, a certain few stand out:
- Claus Strandberg, who stole 7 billion worth of savings from the Moroccan people and conned his daughter out of a huge inheritance after leaving her mother post-birth and being a Disappeared Dad. He can't resist screwing people over, insisting it's all about "the game". Even his higher-ups Providence planned to have him killed once he exited Morocco.
- While not a target, Silvio Caruso's mother was a real piece of work. After her husband and her two favorite sons left her, she decided to belittle and bully Silvio so he'd never leave. It went as far as her convincing the gardener's son to seduce his high-school girlfriend and showing pictures of them either kissing or doing something more to Silvio on prom night. This was to "prove" that a mother's love is the only love that counts. This and other treatment
edited 25th Nov '17 7:56:14 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Just by reading those entries its clear to me that they aren't heinous enough. Especially in a series like Hitman.
With Chisaki, there have been some monsters that had someone they legitimately cared about. Dio Brando had his mother, Michael Gedouin had Lucifer, Norman Osborn had Harry, Syura had Prime Minister Honest, and Professor Hojo had Sephiroth.
However, with Chisaki's case, unlike most of the other examples I listed, he was still willing to hurt his Morality Pet to fulfill his own agenda. He didn't take a hint that what he was doing to Eri was unethical when even his father told him to stop. Instead, he made him sick and led the Yakuza.
47’s targets included terrorists with dirty bombs, other hitman, pedophiles, a British lord and his son who were hunting humans for sport and the leader of a doomsday cult that wanted to unleash a deadly virus. A smothering mother and an amoral banker are so far below the heinous standard of this franchise that I’m genuinely surprised anyone would even suggest them. They probably wouldn’t even pass as C Ms in any other setting.
The Mission with Strandberg also had a corrupt Moroccan army general as second target. Said general wanted to dress up his men as terrorist and let them shoot in a crowd of peaceful protesters to incite nationwide riots as part of a plan to overthrow the government. That alone should make it obvious why Strandberg fails the heinous standard.
edited 25th Nov '17 8:42:17 AM by NTG
However, with Chisaki's case, unlike most of the other examples I listed, he was still willing to hurt his Morality Pet to fulfill his own agenda. He didn't take a hint that what he was doing to Eri was unethical when even his father told him to stop. Instead, he made him sick and led the Yakuza.
a lot of that care is abandoned, deconstructed or hollow. Chisakibelieves he's doing right by his father-figure and intends on fulfilling what he feels is his best interest so he can later show him and repay him for his kindness. Not the same thing.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Alright so this is the candidate that I'm unsure of and probably will get an unanimous no votes. But ah well, I'll do this EP nonetheless as this is from my childhood movie and having seen the several scene for it
What's the Work
Connected is a 2008 Hong Kong action-thriller film and basically a remake of an obscure film called Cellular that starred Chris Evans, Kim Basinger, William H. Macy and Jason Statham. So basically the story is about a man named Bob who receives a distressed call from a woman named Grace who has been kidnapped by corrupt Interpol agents with a hidden agenda.
Now, The Interpol themselves are pretty guilty in their crimes and contribute to the heinous standard. But there is one person that is stand out and basically their ringleader....Enter Fok Tak-Nang.
Who Is He/What Has He Done
Senior Inspector Fok Tak-nang is a corrupt Interpol agent with a hidden agenda. He is basically the ringleader of Grace’s kidnapping. The film started where Grace and her car were knocked out by Fok’s men after she took her daughter to school. After she was knocked out, they went to her house, started ransacking the place and killing Grace’s maid where Grace was forced to watch. After this, Fok and his men brought Grace to an abandoned house. After she got trapped and tries to use the phone, one of Fok’s men destroys it. But luckily Grace manages to fix it and manages to contact Bob so that he could save him by lending his phone to a near police officer.
However, the call soon went interrupted as Fok and his man enter the abandoned house. Fok asked where her brother Roy is. When Grace answer that she didn’t know where her brother is, Fok and his men abducted Roy’s friend, Joe and forces Grace to call her own brother. If she refused, Fok’s men will beat Joe (which they already did) and then forces Grace to watch. When he asked Grace if she knew where her brother was. Grace replied that she didn’t know. Because of this, Fok kills Joe and then plans to abduct her daughter, Tinker.
When Fok’s men successfuly abducts Tinker, Bob chases after the abductors but ended up losing their sight of them in the struggle. It was also revealed that Fok orders one of the Interpol agents, Michelle, to impersonate as Grace. After Fok returns to the abandoned house, He then threatens to kill Grace’s daughter if she doesn’t tell where Roy is and when she answers that she didn’t know where her brother is and said that he was probably at home due to something happening to him, Fok prepares to kill Grace. However, he was interrupted by Michelle and got a message that Roy was fell down from the hill and ended up in hospital. Fok then prepares to abduct him.
When Fok and his men went to hospital, Bob manages to distract them by throwing his gun. However, this went backfired a bit since Fok and his men were revealed to be an Interpol Agents. Not only that, he succeeded in kidnapping Roy and took him to the hill so that Fok could retrieve Roy’s camcorder. When Fok and his men manages to grab Roy’s backpack, Bob intervenes and took Roy’s backpack and then flees from the Interpol agents. Unfortunately, he loses the connection with Grace.
As Grace tries to contact Bob, she is encountered by one of Fok’s henchman. However, she kills him and manages to find her daughter. Unfortunately, they got caught by Fok. When Bob tries to look at Roy’s backpack, he founds a camcorder and then Bob looks on one of the footage....In there, Bob founds the reason why Fok has been kidnapping Grace,Roy and Tinker. It was revealed in the footage that was taken by Roy that Fok and his men brutally executing American Drug dealers and stealing their contraband. And because of this, Fok tries to capture Roy and got rid of the evidence. When Fok finds out about Grace talking to Bob in the phone and thanks to Bob intervening with their business, Fok then threatens to kill the thing that Grace loves and then tries to shoot Roy and Tinker while forcing Grace to watch. Fortunately he got interrupted due to the call from Bob. Bob tells Fok that they need to meet him in the airport in an exchange for the hostages.
At the airport, Bob’s plan to met with his sister and his son are foiled as Fok conveniently stands between them and Bob's hiding place. After telling Fok to go towards the parking lot, he demands that Grace, Roy and Tinker be released. They flee to a patrol car that is also in the lot. Unfortunately, Bob is caught by Fok and his men, and fights against them until Fai catches up to them. Fok and his men are arrested by Detective Cheung and his Serious Crimes Unit. After Bob hands the videotaped evidence over to Detective Cheung, Fok and Tong, one of Fok's henchman, appear, and Cheung reveals that he was working with Fok. Fok then deletes the evidence and then prepares to kill Bob. A violent confrontation ensues in a loading dock in the airport and Bob confronts Fok in a scaffolding which the latter gave a No Holds Barred Beatdown to Bob and prepares to kill him. After Bob reveals he still has videotaped evidence on his cell phone and threatens to send it to the police, Fok kicks Bob off the scaffolding. A net manages to save Bob's fall, but sends Fok falling to his death. Killing him for good.
Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors
None that I concerned. As for Fok’s relationship with his underlings, Despite sharing crimes with them, I don’t see Fok interacting with his underlings a bit and he’s just treat them as what minions do. Nothing more. And yes, he may try to kept the Wong family alive but it was just a pragmatic villainy so that he could get the evidence. Not only that, when he got the evidence, he just tries to kill Bob anyway.
Heinous Standard
This is where it gets tricky.......Bob, the protagonist of the movie, thanks to his reckless driving for the pursuit of the kidnappers, ended up hurting some people like some construction workers. Luckily enough, the victims aren’t dying but ended up getting hurt. He also holds the store at gunpoint and so that he could got a charger, But funnily enough, he direct his gun to the floor although it manages to scare some people and no one is dying and he’s a debt collector. He definitely doesn’t count after all as he try to save Grace from the abductors and trying to kept his own promise to his son. Fok on the other hand, he murders several people,kidnap a person because her brother capture him shooting some drug dealers,ransacking the person house and kills the maid and he ended up sharing his own crimes to his fellow Interpol agents with him being a ringleader of the kidnapping and giving some orders to his underlings. Not only that, he also tries to kill a child after founding the person contacted a stranger to save her.........Yea
Final Verdict
Thoughts? I think he probably doesn't count due to that tidbit I mentioned on the heinous standard part. But ah well, I leave it to you guys. Now I will watch Juuni Taisen as I reserved the show.
edited 25th Nov '17 8:57:10 AM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Goku Black
Cut it and I'll Now PM the troper as I honestly don't think either would count in general let alone in the Hitman franchise as they sound just like jerks rather than anything particualary heinous. They don't even kill anyone. This person is really confused about this trope to even think they count so I'll send them a link to admistrava
edited 25th Nov '17 8:58:38 AM by miraculous
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."