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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#66801: Aug 31st 2016 at 1:58:49 PM

Okay here is a villain from a series I read several years ago, and very recently started thinking about again. Honestly I’m not sure if their heinous enough to count, but figured I might as well go for it. So here is Mulgarath from The Spiderwick Chronicles.

Oh and good news, I finally figured out how to bold my headings.

Who is he:

Mulgarath is the Big Bad of the series although he himself only appears in book four and five. An ambitious, cruel and very dangerous Ogre, Mulgarath desires to conquer the worlds of mankind and all other fairies.

Long before the series began Mulgarath was once just an ordinary Ogre who had taken his residence inside a junkyard.

Then he discovered the human Arthur Spiderwick, who had dedicated his life to studying fairies and the supernatural, collecting information about since he was a child. Realising that Spiderwick’s field guide was the answer to obtaining the weaknesses of both mankind and all the other fairies, Mulgarath strived to get hold of the book.

Mulgarath proceeded to start amassing an army of Goblins for his eventual conquest. He also managed to accumulate several young dragons and made his Goblin army build him a fortress in the junkyard. However the Elves caught wind of his activities.

Realising the danger of the guide falling into the Ogre’s hands, the Elves demanded that Spiderwick hand over the book. When he tried to cheat them, they imprisoned him, and hoped his book would remain hidden for all eternity.

What does he do:

Not willing to accept defeat, but having no idea where the book was Mulgarath had his goblins kidnap Arthur’s daughter Lucinda and demanded she give them the book. However as she believed her father had taken it with him and was unaware the Elves had taken him, she couldn’t give it to them.

Mulgarath had her tortured even after she told them she had no idea where it was. Mulgarath personally crippled her. Lucinda survived, but the event was the final straw that convinced her family she had gone insane (with suspicious brought on due to several events relating to having a father that studied fairies), leading to her being institutionalised for several decades.

Now this entire attack happens off page and is recounted, but Lucinda does appear, so we get to see the effects of his actions especially said crippling. Thus I’m not sure if it qualifies as Offstage Villainy or not.

Decades later, Arthur’s great niece Helen moved into his old house, with her three children Jared, Simon and Mallory (9, 9 and 13 respectively). A few days later, Jared discovers Arthur’s hidden study and later finds the book.

Learning of this, Mulgarath sends his goblins to kidnap the children and bring him the guide. They manage to capture Simon, but Jared is warned by Thimbletack (a brownie who lives in the house). Jared and Mallory manage to save Simon from the goblin’s camp.

A few weeks later, Mulgarath decides to personally go looking for the book using his powers to transform into an exact double for Jared. Then following them his school, he began going through his things looking for the book. Confronting the actual Jared, Jared tried to defend himself with his pocket knife. But Mulgarath simply took the form of another student, and left Jared to be caught holding the knife. Afterwards he then took the form of a girl, and led Mallory away so that the Dwarfs who were allied to him could kidnap her.

Running out of patience, Mulgarath and his goblins simply attacked the Spiderwick estate, ripping the building apart until they found the book. Through the process they intentionally killed all of Simon’s pets (he had a lot of them), and upon finding the book, abandoned the Hobgoblin Hogsqueal to be eaten by a griffin which the Grace kids had saved earlier. They also kidnap Helen Grace, so that they can use her to lure her children to them.

At the end of book, Mulgarath and his entire army arrive at the Dwarf’s base. The dwarf’s hand over the weapons they agreed to make for him and declare their eternal allegiance to him, their leader Lord Korting calling him “a worthy master.” Mulgarath responds by setting his goblin army upon the unarmed dwarf’s slaughtering all of them (can’t remember exactly how many there were, but it’s at least a few dozen).

He later admits he did it cause he no longer needed them and didn’t like the idea of fulfilling his promise to let them make a new world of gold, silver coper and iron, preferring to rule a world of “flesh and blood and bone.”

Now possessing the guide, Mulgarath used its information to begin breading his dragons, as well as accelerating their growth, and waits for the Grace siblings to make an effort to save their mother.

Said Grace Siblings manage to make it into his palace where they find multiple tiny fairies that Mulgarath had imprisoned in honey, leaving them to struggle in vain as they slowly drown. Jared manages to rescue a few, but most of them are already dead by this point and everyone is openly disturbed this discovery.

Arriving in his throne room at the top of the palace, they find their mother and apparently their estranged father chained to it. Jared however realises a moment too late that he’s really Mulgarath. Transforming back into his true form, he seizes Simon and Mallory by the throat and tries to throw them out of the window. Remembering that ogres are arrogant, Jared manages to play on Mulgarath’s vanity getting him to brag about his plan hoping to give Thimbletack long enough to wrap the chains around his leg.

Unfortunately Mulgarath catches him and kicks the tiny fairy across the room. Jared reveals they had already killed his dragons (using said Griffin I mentioned earlier) and thus ruined his plans. Enraged Mulguarath hurls his siblings out of the window (they survive by managing to grab said chains) and attacks Jared. Using one of the dwarf’s swords Jared manages to stab Mulgarath through the foot taking him entirely by surprise. He then pushes the off balance Ogre out the very same window.

Mulgarath however takes the form a huge dragon, partially destroying his own palace in the process, to tries to climb back up to kill all the Grace’s. Managing to get his siblings to safety, Jared cuts the chain causing the Ogre to fall. Mulgarath manages to transforms into a bird and tries to fly down to rally his army to kill them but is instead grabbed by Hogsqueal who eats him before he can turn back.

Freudian Excuse or any redeeming features:

None whatsoever. That Mulgarath lives in a dump isn’t a source of sympathy. According to the series Ogres naturally make their homes in abandoned areas and usually live as scavengers.

Through investigation, I can find no evidence that Ogre’s in the series are Always Chaotic Evil. They are described as territorial, vain and selfish but nothing that suggests they lack moral culpability. Unlike the chaotic goblins Mulgarath is intelligent, calculating and clearly understands the repercussions of his actions. In fact according to the All There in the Manual, Arthur Spiderwick at one point made a deal with another ogre to impersonate him, it went off without a hitch and all he needed to do was pay the ogre a portrait in exchange.

As for his goblin followers, Mulgarath cares nothing for them killing them if they fail him, and abandons them to die without a care. They follow Mulgarath purely because they’re afraid of him and upon his death quickly disappear.

Being a fairy also doesn’t interfere. While the fairies in the series clearly have somewhat alien morals, Mulguarath’s desires are purely selfish and exceed what Ogre’s normally do.

Heinous Standard:

Being almost the cause of everything that goes wrong and a sadistic brute, he is certainly the most heinous character in the series. Being a young adult book series, despite its at times surprisingly graphic detail and reasonably high stakes, up until the final two books there are nearly no deaths except animals. Throughout the series the protagonists only directly kill one single goblin in self-defence (a race that is Always Chaotic Evil) and are all clearly unnerved by having to do so.

Mulgarath’s mere appearance causes the series to get considerably darker, and he himself causally (not to mention unnecessarily) murders dozens of fairies, as well as attempting to kill three children (I understand as they are the protagonist's this doesn’t count as much as it would if they weren’t, but he’s still psychopathic).

To be clear the series averts What Measure Is A Nonhuman, throughout Fairies are portrayed as intelligent sapient beings, if alien in some ways to humans. All of them (including trolls, who eat people) can be talked to and reasoned with.

Conclusion:

I’m not sure if Mulgarath counts, he is certainly a cruel, arrogant and brutal ogre warlord and the worst thing in the series. But several of the things he does are somewhat generic with his overall “take over the world plot” being the most obvious example.

Having said that he does massacre all the dwarf’s after they praise him and call him their master (said dwarfs only helped him in the first place cause he played on their love of craftsmanship and made them promises he never intended to keep), brutalised Lucinda to the point of crippling her cause she gave him an answer he didn’t want to hear and subjected multiple fairies to a slow and painful death for seeming no other reason than sadism.

Is that enough to count?

edited 31st Aug '16 2:27:12 PM by MGD107

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#66802: Aug 31st 2016 at 2:10:56 PM

Bit of an odd example, but would it be suitable to include a character who is a borderline Historical Hero Upgrade to a Real Life person?

EDIT: Never mind, found it in the FAQ.

edited 31st Aug '16 2:14:55 PM by Larkmarn

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#66803: Aug 31st 2016 at 2:44:03 PM

[tup] Mulgarath

[up] Now I'm curious, who is it?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#66804: Aug 31st 2016 at 3:26:21 PM

Yes to Mulgarath.

Why so serious?
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66805: Aug 31st 2016 at 3:34:35 PM

[tup] Mulgarath. And if we see the crippling, that's enough.
Also, I LOVE that quote from Claxton. [tup][tup][tup]

edited 31st Aug '16 3:35:02 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#66806: Aug 31st 2016 at 3:42:30 PM

[tup] Mulgrath

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#66808: Aug 31st 2016 at 3:45:30 PM

I remember when I effort posted LokSat back in May, I said tentative to my yes. Well now it's a straight [tup], nothing tentative about it.

For the record, the five who approved him with me back in June: DemonDuckofDoom, De Carta, xie323, G-Editor and Clown-Face.

edited 31st Aug '16 9:22:29 PM by futuremoviewriter

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66809: Aug 31st 2016 at 3:54:52 PM

A few things:

  • What do you think folks? I've added the tweaked Broadrick and Wilde entries, and I get the feeling more will come.
  • Only a few hours before the Webcomic swapping.
  • So I finished Out are the Lights today. Fun read, yes Schreck counts, I'm TEMPTED to effortpost Todd, but he doesn't really stand out from the rest of the conspirators (plus he MAY care for Freya). Good thing: No Karma Houdini. One thing I DIDN'T like (I'm quoting this):
    Pete was just too right wing. I mean he and a child are in danger of being attacked by a black woman, but he is afraid to draw his weapon because he is concerned about what liberal groups will say? Liberal groups are fine with children being murdered while a police officer stands idly by? Laymon usually shows his conservative politics, but this was just too ridiculous.

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#66810: Aug 31st 2016 at 3:58:04 PM

@DDD: Long Dinh from The Prince and the Pagoda Boy.

I'll make a write-up eventually.

edited 31st Aug '16 3:58:48 PM by Larkmarn

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66811: Aug 31st 2016 at 4:21:02 PM

[up][up] Maybe I was reading it wrong, but I was under the impression Todd and Bruno escaped consequences

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66812: Aug 31st 2016 at 4:21:43 PM

[up][up] Huh, seems interesting. Seems we could have another Amon Goeth.
[up] I dunno, while the ending was REALLY abrupt, I'm gonna assume Schreck wasn't the only victim of the shovel. At the very least, they probably pissed their pants in fright. Besides, if I'm reading the epilogue correctly, and the two were Dal and Elizabeth. I'm thinking she wouldn't let two who played a role in almost killing her (Todd and Bruno) escape. Does Laymon usually have a Karma Houdini?


Oh, this was added to the drafts page, in case anyone wants to see the original:
  • The Wardstone Chronicles: Bony Lizzie is an infamous witch who harvests bones for dark magic rituals and has no qualm about murdering children. Posing as Alice Deane's aunt during her traineeship, she’s later revealed to be her mother having conceived with the Fiend. In the first book, she plots to free her equally awful grandmother Mother Malkin by tricking Tom into giving her cakes made with Alice's blood and abducts a three years old boy as a meal. She later captures Tom, forces him a potion causing him nightmarish hallucinations before trying to take his thumb bones. A short story reveals she had a brain eating familiar she hurled over her servant and did not interfere when it targeted her daughter. In the seventh book after taking over the isle of Mona, she kills a miller who challenged her authority, traps his soul in the limbo, sentences John Gregory, Adriana and commander Stanton to be fed to the Buggane, drinks the blood of a loyal yeoman and leads raiding parties against the landowners and farmers slaughtering entire families. When Tom and abhuman Horn tries to stop her, she kills the latter and tries to slice off the thumbs of the former. After her daughter ruins her plans of world domination, she attempts to take her life. She causes the deaths of Adriana and her fiancé Simon in her escape. The flashback of the twelf book, reveals she killed the Spook Jacob Stone before torturing his soul and attempted to kill thirteen children for a ritual while in the present day her ghost ambushes Alice and her ally Thorn when they trespass in the dark to be interrogated and tortured by the daemon Beelzebub. Ruthless and sadist, Bony Lizzie is one of the worst witches Tom and his master ever faced.

edited 31st Aug '16 4:33:17 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#66813: Aug 31st 2016 at 4:38:11 PM

Okay 5[tup] 0[tdown], I'll get started on Mulgarath's right up.

Awesomekid42 Since: Jul, 2012
#66814: Aug 31st 2016 at 4:54:49 PM

Since it seems that SAO is getting a fifth CM with Vassago now, should it get its own CM page?

edited 31st Aug '16 4:56:06 PM by Awesomekid42

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#66817: Aug 31st 2016 at 4:57:11 PM

I'm of the personal opinion a work should have at least 6 CM's before it can get a page. Otherwise, it feels like it's just taking up space.

Why so serious?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66818: Aug 31st 2016 at 4:58:20 PM

There's no hurry to make one JUST because a single work in a series gets 5.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66819: Aug 31st 2016 at 5:00:19 PM

ACW: Look at Dal and Elizabeth's dialogue in the last chapter...who do the descriptions of the people picking them up match?

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#66820: Aug 31st 2016 at 5:03:19 PM

@Larkmarn: We discussed him and decided to cut. I forget why, though.

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66821: Aug 31st 2016 at 5:19:24 PM

[up][up] Sonuva...you're right. Okay then, I'm gonna assume Connie had them kill Dal and Elizabeth; dammit...
As for 6 for subpages...so are we gonna merge all the ones with 5 (Dragon Age; Mega Man; Pretty Cure; Rurouni Kenshin; Shin Megami Tensei; When They Cry; and probably others)? 5 seems like a good number, to me anyway (I think originally it was 4, which was probably too little; actually, I think at ONE point it was 3).

edited 31st Aug '16 5:25:09 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#66822: Aug 31st 2016 at 5:21:27 PM

We don't need to increase the number of examples. SAO is one work, and every monster is from that 1 light novel. It doesn't need a page.

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#66823: Aug 31st 2016 at 5:31:20 PM

[up] Holy crap, you're right. All of the examples I listed are from franchises instead of single works (even the Jack Reacher page is different novels). Woohoo, there won't be the inconsistency gringringrin

edited 31st Aug '16 5:33:21 PM by ACW

CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
G-Editor Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#66824: Aug 31st 2016 at 5:31:59 PM

[up] You love my quote awesome!

I shall post this quote in the CM quote page, so when Ripper Street has enough for its own page, I can post it on to there.

edited 31st Aug '16 5:32:29 PM by G-Editor

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#66825: Aug 31st 2016 at 5:33:40 PM

Oh, Ripper's all yours, G. Go for it with Shine and any others


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