During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Foreign Troper
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/TheLastUnicorn
Its been a while since I watched it, but was King Haggard really that bad? I mean yes, he captured all the unicorns, but that's about it. Even though he didn't find pleasure in it, he took care of his adopted son and his whole appearance was really a tragic one and not really heinous.
Mommy Fortuna was way higher in terms of heinousnes, I think she would be a better contender.
EDIT: He is even listed as an Anti-Villain on the mainpage.
edited 6th Jan '13 12:19:41 PM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
He's cited as an Anti-Villain: King Haggard, where he explains why he captured the unicorns. Not from greed, or power... but because they're the only thing that makes him happy.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Bringing up villains for discussion.
1. Azariah Kyras (removed for unknown reason). Essentially an Omnicidal Maniac taken to its horrific conclusion motived by For the Evulz. No redeeming qualities. The best analogy to take with him in comparison to other followers of Khorne would be an Omega to Weil one. Most Khornites are more like Omega, just a bunch of blood crazed rampaging marauders. Note: Khornites are seen as the least monstrous Chaos faction for this reason. Kyras is more like Weil.
2. Several of Soul Nomad's villians, with Hawthorne and Revya (Demon Path version only) taking the cake. The 1st is an unrepentant rapist who rapes and kills girls taken from a child kidnapping crime organization, raises them, and then rapes/murders them on their 17th birthday. The 2nd. Well.....he's the reason the Demon Path is so infamous and laden with Nightmare Fuel. Is motivated For the Evulz and because its fun.
3. Fake Overlord Zenon. Seen as the most outright evil of the series villains (Judge Nemo was mainly irrepairably insane from his past) mainly because his motive is extremely petty compared to what he does. In summary, his pride got hurt because he got curbed stomped (and spared) by the real Overlord Zenon (who reincarnated to escape the eternal bloodshed). He tracks the reincarnation, butchers an entire village and corrupts an entire planet for the purpose of "raising her" as a form of mockery for what Rozalin didn't know she did in a past life. Of course I'm talking about the game version since the manga strayed heavily from the original material with him.
edited 6th Jan '13 1:31:23 PM by magnum12
I don't suppose someone knows the Gundamn Unicorn series well enough to tell us more about that villian, because it sounds like it's that situation where women are being held to a higher standard than their male counterparts.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I haven't seen much of Unicorn. Looking over the character sheet for the series, and Martha's entry on the Gundam Wiki, however, hasn't revealed anything particularly heinous about her to me. So far she's brainwashed Puru-12 into remaining Marida Cruz (which is pretty bad) and tried to manipulate Banagher into giving up the Gundam. I'll make a post on the Gundam forum and see if anybody can provide some detail we're missing, because otherwise that just doesn't stack with other Universal Century villains. Katejina had a better claim to fame.
On the sexism thing, I sometimes wonder if the problem is less sexism and more a case of Protagonist-Centred Morality from the audience. We've had lots of problems with people trying to add a character on the basis of "he/she hurt my favourite character's feelings." Since certain female character types, such as The Vamp, Femme Fatale, and many type of Bitch in Sheep's Clothing are more likely to engage in the emotional manipulation of a male lead, then vice-versa, that might just be the source of some of the problem, as the audience and character both react poorly to the "betrayal."
edited 6th Jan '13 3:00:12 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I would guess Azariah Kyras was removed for being pretty normal in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Given, though, he's from a video game where he's the most heinous by its standards, I'd honestly want his inclusion
Which game was he from?
Dawn of War II, as I recall.
Btw, Shaoken, any comment on Ma-Ma? I did a search and saw you as the one mentioning to cut her on the heinous standard
I'm playing through Dawn Of War II, so I'd have to wait until I get through that to comment.
As for Ma-Ma, the Dredd film did make an effort to fit within the continuity of the comics (or at least pay homage to them), and captured the mood of the comics well. So, whilst being a film I'd still say Ma-Ma fails the henious standard on account of the world being so fucking dark already that murdering an entire floor's worth of people becomes mundane.
@6554: To touch on the rest, Hawthorne is entirely off-screen villainy, Revya (who is the protagonist) can only be made into a candidate via a choice, and Zenon's worst deeds are off-screen, with everything he does on-screen being generic Evil Overlordery.
Cleric of Banjo
Also, in such a crapsack setting, it seems fairly understandable that someone would end up becoming ruthless in order to survive.
Random question, but one that might be relevant: does a villain ordering a henchman to perform a horrible act with full knowledge of what it entails count as performing that action themselves? Who gets credit for the MEH-crossing in this case?
Assuming that both parties don't show any real remorse, I'd argue both of them would count.
Kyras: While that analogy makes sense, do note that a "Dr-Weil" is not the most Heinous being in WH 40 K style universe. But does he qualify, and it's the same thing with Ma-Ma, I would have to agree. However the Tabletop Games entry should be moved to the video games section.
The thing is, given the horrors and darkness of the setting, I don't think any "villain" from the setting really qualifies within the context of the universe with the exception of Bile, arguably some of the "evil" Primarchs and the Iron Warrior Marine Honsu and not sure who else(through you could make a case for Vect and Abaddon as some people noted) So Kyras' actions are nothing compared to even some villains who do not even qualify. However, in Dawn Of War the crapsack and most darkest aspects of the setting are very much toned down, which makes him heinous for the setting for those WITHOUT knowledge of the setting proper. So I'd say he qualifies for that reason.
So I'm voting yes on Ma-Ma and Kyras, because even if they aren't heinous for that universe, they are for a standalone work.
edited 6th Jan '13 5:04:05 PM by xie323
Technically maybe both, but unless the henchman's response is properly characterized, I'd put most of the weight on the villain because the henchman's action is ancillary to the villain's command. For example, a faceless, nameless henchman doesn't really have an identity beyond his leader, so if he's the one perpetrating this action, I'd put pretty much everything on the leader. The more characterization the perpetrating henchman has, the more autonomous he becomes, and as a result, the more heinous his action is because he is essentially a living, thinking being from the perspective of the narration who understands his action from a personal standpoint, rather than a soulless automaton that may as well be a slavebot or something. Through this, I'd say the villain is also in demonstration that he transcends his henchman in heinousness by being in control of their action and by being the one to generate such a horrible idea, so based on this alone, I wouldn't consider the henchman to be a Complete Monster.
edited 6th Jan '13 5:12:54 PM by AquaRegia
However, it should be noted with the Demon Path scenario that Revya would qualify under the Alternate Universe clause.
How do we handle alternate time lines? Is this handeled under the same rules as Alternate Universe? If yes, then I would also like to nominate Shion Sonozaki, but only in time lines where she qualifies. Normally she's a nice person, but in timelines where she's the one who snaps (Watanagashi-hen and Meakashi-hen).... dear god is she's horrible (including the on screen torture/murder of a 12 year old girl). She's the reason why Meakashi-hen (which now has the nick name of "Higurashi's Demon Path" for its HSQ) has an infamous reputation as the blackest abyss in a series well known for its Gorn and Nightmare Fuel.
For Kyras, he's pretty much the very worst of all the serie's antagonists (topping both Araghast and Eliphas in evilness). Especially when compared to other followers of Khorne.
-Edit: Also nominating the GLA from Command and Conquer Generals. Based on in game transmissions, the group as a whole thoroughly enjoys the atrocities they commit and cross the Moral Event Horizon by the 2nd mission of their campaign at the earliest, then escalate the terrible things they do with subsequent missions (including a chemical attack on a very large city at the very end and doing the same to a village under their control in the first USA mission).
edited 6th Jan '13 5:24:22 PM by magnum12
Looking at the write-up for Krayt I can see him qualifying, though I think we should hold off judgement until njxrll can make that counterargument that was in the offering.
Naraku is the only Inuyasha villain I can see qualifying. Most of the other villains don't stack when compared to him. I don't really know the show well enough to oppose/agree with any of the individual examples, but I will flat out oppose the inclusion of Mukotsu and Suikotsu's bad side. With the exception of Rankotsu, all of the Band of Seven members care about the other members of the Band of Seven (and even Rankotsu cares about Ginkotsu, his partner and creation). Looking at the two of them as individuals, Suikotsu's personalities are too closely linked for me to differentiate between the two of them. At one point they even link together, creating a personality that is capable of extreme violence, but can't hurt those whom the nice persona liked. Mukotsu is more creepy and pathetic then in-your-face evil. Neither one of them is as overtly malicious as their boss, Bankotsu (who himself does not qualify due to the aforementioned caring about the rest of the Band), who declared early in his career "We'll become mercenaries, and slaughter everyone!", then proceeded to live up to that claim. Cut them.
Revya being evil is not really an Alternate Universe, though; Revya has an equal chance of going through the plot like normal as [s]he does have the chance to become a horrible human being, largely because the option to do either is presented in a single (or two if you're really hellbent on going down the Demon Path) dialogue box. I'd say Demon Path!Revya is closer than the "oh, you can some horrible thing in Skyrim and then... go back to petting kittens or something" thing since it's a cohesive, inflexible storyline, but [s]he still runs into the whole "the player actually has to interfere with the narrative in order to get the character to do horrible things" caveat that goes against the rules of this trope.
I don't have as much experience with Higurashi as I do with Umineko, but you'd need to expound on her motivations and why she's insane in that route for it to be considered. Especially since I hear conflicting reports that the reason why the characters go insane is because of the outside actions of a third-party character, which makes it sound like they're not actually in control of their actions and is a disqualifier.
edited 6th Jan '13 5:31:24 PM by AquaRegia
Motivations and cause of Shion's madness: Essentially, take an Yandere and ramp up the horror to Beyond the Impossible. As for third party involvement, the influence varies on the arc and character. Onryu Sonozaki's actions (basically a nastily deconstructed Sure, Let's Go with That attitude resulting in an extreme Un Witting Instigator Of Doom) are indirectly responsible for many of the cycles of madness and death across multiple novels, not to mention the "distinguishment incident" making Shion a potential powder keg (whether she "goes off" or not depends on the arc). Takano either nudges people towards madness by provoking paranoia (victims include Keiichi in the 3rd novel and Shion in the 2nd/5th novels) or actively pushes them over the edge via ordered actions ( Keiichi in the first novel and Rena in the 6th.)
A Hate Plague is involved in all 6 novels, but what Shion does under its influence is what distinguishes her from everyone else who snaps. While most people who snap act more like crazed, paranoid, rabid dogs with outbursts of violence, Shion on the other hand acts like a fully calculating Serial Killer (visionary with revenge subtype).
edited 6th Jan '13 5:51:40 PM by magnum12
King Haggard from The Last Unicorn doesn't qualify. He doesn't have any onscreen villainous actions and is far more of a tragic figure than an evil one.
Groups don't count.
We've discussed GLA before and while they as an individual might fit the qualifications, they are a group and don't count.
Madame Defarge from A Tale of Two Cities is listed, but the main page describes her as a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds.
Also, on the Live-Action TV page, there's some huge Natter in the Lost example about the Man in Black:
- The Start of Darkness story for the Man in Black (who doesn't count, as he has motives we're supposed to sympathize with) manages to give us another: the unnamed "mother" of MIB and Jacob. The episode starts with her murdering a woman who has just given birth and taking her newborn children, and by the end, she's fed her "kids" a bunch of lies about the outside world and the others on the Island just to keep them with her, tried to murder her own adoptive son for trying to leave the Island, and seemed to massacre a entire village that wasn't harming her and just wanted to escape.
- Um, that was BEFORE Man in Black's transformation into a literal Complete Monster. Post-transformation, he was evil incarnate and manipulated people into doing his bidding by making empty promises he had no intention on keeping, turned people into his insane minions with the sickness, and has killed a LOT of people, some in order to get off the Island, some simply because he has no use for them. It's also implied that he's going to kill everyone once he leaves the Island, and his final plan is to destroy the Island so that he can drown everyone else on it, which could have possibly also destroyed the entire world. And while pre-transformation human Man in Black showed remorse over killing his mother, post-transformation monster Man in Black showed no remorse and sometimes has shown sadistic amusement at people's suffering. He managed to be FAR worse than his fake mother, who, while crazy, was protecting the Island in order to prevent the devastating consequences, and it's probably because of this job and going mad over having to do it for so long that she acted the way she did. By the end of the series, everyone teams up against Man in Black, even past villains like Ben and Widmore, and MIB's own "claimed" minions, Claire and Sayid, eventually regain their senses and turn against him as well.
- Very well said, sir/madam. He was pure evil, to the point where season six didn't need a bomb/explosion in the finale (something every other season finale had) because, well, how do you top a nuke being detonating? The Man In Black, that's how.
- The Start of Darkness story for the Man in Black (who doesn't count, as he has motives we're supposed to sympathize with) manages to give us another: the unnamed "mother" of MIB and Jacob. The episode starts with her murdering a woman who has just given birth and taking her newborn children, and by the end, she's fed her "kids" a bunch of lies about the outside world and the others on the Island just to keep them with her, tried to murder her own adoptive son for trying to leave the Island, and seemed to massacre a entire village that wasn't harming her and just wanted to escape.
Kill that. Please.
EDIT: I have my first response about Martha Vist Carbine. It sounds like she hasn't done enough to qualify. I'll see if anybody else pipes up; otherwise I'm going to cut. She may be a cold-blooded bitch, but she's not Gihren Zabi material. Not even Yazan Gable.
edited 6th Jan '13 11:48:31 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I vote for Ma-Ma too. Even her Freudian Excuse doesn't excuse her actions (getting cut by her pimp, which made him kill her).