During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I would say that the two weeks rule applies to every work no matter the genre, medium or way of distribution, but I suppose since not as many people care about fanfics you could just ask "Hey, anyone minds if I spoil X?" and then see if anyone objects.
Planeswalker
Okay, well since the general opinion is yes to Wolfstar and no to Hagen I'll start writing Wolfstar's effortpost. In the meantime, here's three more candidates. I decided whatever, I'd write one for the character I was unsure on and let you guys decide. So there's one left to go after this. He's part of a separate series anyways that's only loosely connected to the first one.
So first we have Artor, the plow god.
Who is he?
Artor, the plow god, is the god the Acharites follow.
What has he done?
Originally a Sufficiently Advanced Alien, Artor saw the land of Tencendor from space and wanted it for himself. As a result, he crashed through the Star Gate, fought and bound the seven awakened Star Gods, and turned to the humans who did not have a god to follow for worship. He calls the Icarii, who worshipped the Star Gods, and the Avar, who worshipped the Mother, the Forbidden, and incited a war that ended with thousands dead and the humans, now called Acharites, banishing the Icarii to the mountains and the Avar to a small forest. This resulted in both races diminishing greatly and being unable to help when Gorgarael begins his invasion. Artor then had the Acharites cut down vast swaths of forest to diminish the Mother's power. He also sets up the Seneschal to dictate every man, woman, and child's life and demands they live according to the way of the plow, without magic. Doing this destroys the land and damages the power of magic itself, especially for the Avar, but he does not care.
When Gorgarael's armies begin to threaten the Acharites, he does nothing to assist his people, seeing their slaughter as not his problem. As a result belief in him begins to wane, and it is only then he takes action, and not to help anyone. Instead of trying to help his people and restore faith in himself, he blames the Mother and the Star Gods and seeks to destroy what influence they have left on the land.
When Faraday begins to replant the forests his followers cut down hundreds of years ago for the Mother he appears and "blesses" one of his followers, turning him into a hulking monstrosity to try to kill her. This process is very painful and Artor enjoys inflicting it, doing so several times. When said follower fails he uses his power on the villagers of Smyrton. These villagers already feared the "Forbidden" due to Hagen's teachings and under Artor's influence with a vast quantity of Mind Rape become zombies for his will. Under his orders the village kidnaps an Icarii family looking to rest in their village and sacrifices them to Artor, ripping them apart limb from limb. When Faraday enters their village they grab her and her entourage of Avar and plan on doing the same to them until Azhure, an awakened Star God, stops them and attacks him. During the fight he steps on one of his followers, crushing her to death with no remorse, and kicks an Avar child through a wall. Once Faraday uses the power of the Mother in conjunction with the power of the Star Gods he is defeated and then tries to flee only to be outmatched and killed.
Freudian Excuse?
None.
Redemption?
No.
Redeeming Factors?
He needs prayer badly, but there's no reason he couldn't have shared power with the other gods or helped his people against the Antichrist, he just chooses not to.
Final Thoughts?
Like Hagen, he's not around for very long, he's a minor villain in the scope of things. He still shows himself to be a cruel and arrogant jerk with no regard for his believers and caused wars for pretty much no reason.
—-
Next is Sheol, a demon that appears in the second half of the Wayfarer Redemption.
Who is she?
Sheol, The Demon of Despair, is The Dragon temporarily in charge of the Timekeeper Demons in The Wayfarer Redemption trilogy.
What does she do?
As a Timekeeper Demon, Sheol possesses a great deal of power. In the past she and her fellow demons caused the complete extinction of the Earth and had done so to many planets before that. In their leader Qeteb's absence she is in charge of the rest of the Demons. She tricks Drago into giving up his Icarii powers to transport her and her companions close enough to Tencendor to shatter the Star Gate. She is the first demon to unleash her power upon the world of Tencendor (having demanded the right to do so), causing thousands of people to succumb to madness. We are shown the direct results of her power when a woman caught by her power strangles her two-year old with a clothesline and then kills herself afterwards in despair. She then leads her fellow demons on their quest to rebuild their boss, fouling the five sacred lakes of Tencendor in the process. She also captures Wolfstar and orders the demons to rape him repeatedly for her and an ally's amusement.
She commits plenty of other crimes with her fellow demons, but they're mostly performed as a group. In her last act, she shows demons have the power to choose whether to be good or evil when Faraday offers her a chance at redemption and she refuses it, instead making Faraday relive the worst moments of her life and choosing to revile in her wickedness.
Mitigating Factors?
None.
Freudian Excuse?
She claims Qeteb forced her into evil long ago... But two minutes later laughs and claims she always enjoyed being one of the most evil beings in the universe.
Heinous Standard?
She's definitely over it.
Redemption?
She thoroughly rejects her chance at it and dies a Karmic Death.
Final Thoughts?
She's even fouler than her boss by virtue of having much more screentime than he does, and upon her defeat tries to weasel out of it by claiming she was Just Following Orders when this was obviously not the case. I think she qualifies.
—-
And finally for today, Qeteb, the Midday Demon.
Who is he?
Qeteb is the leader of the Timekeeper Demons, Humanoid Abominations bent on destroying the universe for fun.
What has he done?
Under his lead, the Timekeeper Demons killed billions if not trillions of people on several worlds including the Earth, and continue to do so on Tencendor. Even though he calls the other demons his brothers and sister he is a definite Bad Boss, beating them when they don't immediately have an answer to his questions or immediately obey his commands. He rules over the other demons through fear. As soon as his body is reassembled he destroys an entire continent's plant life and consumes the minds of every inhabitant of Tencendor not under magical protection. His ultimate goal is the destruction of all life in the universe and the cessation of the Star Dance. In his pursuit of destroying the world of Tencendor he rips apart every single magical landmark (which were sentient beings) piece by piece because he can. He has his legion of mad creatures Mind Rape Faraday multiple times and threatens to rape her himself, and at one point possesses The Hero and pretends he can do so at will because it amuses him to do so. He also rapes a Soulless Shell and prevents the original soul inhabiting the body from returning by doing so because again, it amuses him. He later kidnaps a young girl symbolic of the world itself and Faraday and gives Dragonstar a Sadistic Choice of saving one or the other.
Heinous Standard?
He's over it.
Freudian Excuse?
None.
Redemption?
Nope, he dies eaten alive by a bear named Love.
Final Thoughts?
He probably wouldn't qualify if we didn't see the slaughter of Earth, because he spends the first two books in the series dead and thus a lot of his villainy happened offscreen in the past. But he makes up for it when he finally is resurrected with the crimes above.
edited 28th Jun '16 8:32:13 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Phi Sat's proposals.
How do the Oracle's resources compare to the AI's?
edited 28th Jun '16 8:49:34 AM by DemonDuckofDoom
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
to all three of Phi Sat's. How does Sheol die? Qeteb gets eaten by a bear? A freaking demon gets eaten by a bear? ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to all of Phi Sat's candidates.
Foreign Troper
Welp, a lot going on here again. For whatever it's worth, I was also always one of the people who thought Syndrome to be a qualifier, so I'll give it a , though I will absolutely abide and stand down if he doesn't make it on the list.
EDIT: Never mind, just saw the debate was resolved via mod intervenation.
edited 28th Jun '16 8:56:15 AM by Forenperser
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
to Artor, Sheol and Qeteb.
Got to say it sounds a complicated series I might have to check it out if I get the time. Slight shame about Hagen, in another series he probably would have qualified, but not with this competition.
@ACW
No retired superheroes do equal active superheroes because they all suited up again and willingly came out of retirement. It isn't as if he was blowing them up in an old folks home.
Guys, care to stop discussing Syndrome ? There is a reason why he's on the "never again" list for a reason.
edited 28th Jun '16 9:08:02 AM by MiraiYuji
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Going back a few pages, did we get a comfy 'cut' consensus for Hakumen?
What's precedent ever done for us?
Planeswalker
@ACW: Sheol is forced to strangle herself with clothesline, same as how that woman died. Most of the other demons get the same kind of deaths, like the demon of hunger being forced to eat rocks until his stomach explodes. And the demon only gets eaten after being hunted through a magical maze, if that helps at all.
@MDG 107: It's an older series, so it hasn't aged the best and there's a lot of Gorn, but it's pretty interesting if you're willing to look past some of its flaws. I don't agree with the reviews some tropers put on the site for it, that's for sure.
edited 28th Jun '16 9:14:49 AM by PhiSat
Oissu!
"resolved"
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ambar: I see.
This Hakumen? I think so. You, myself, Lighty, Scraggle, and I think Ambar was leaning towards cut, SSM was I think leaning keep.
Yeah, Hakumen can safely be cut. Should we expand/rewrite Guren IYO, Iaculus?
Wild Child
Artor, Sheol, and Qeteb.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sure, I'm up for that. Remember to stress how little he was changed by getting turned into a youkai with a taste for human flesh.
Was Hakumen Made of Evil in the manga?
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
I don't know, but everything I've read about the two versions suggests that the anime is an extremely faithful adaptation of the manga (except for skipping over a couple of arcs involving secondary characters), and the Ushio and Tora wiki entries contained accurate information about the end of the series before the anime episodes concerning it were aired. I think a blanket removal is probably safe, unless anyone else supplies new manga-only evidence.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Here's the current entry (I got rid of the bit about why Hakumen doesn;t count):
- Guren, second-in-command to Hakumen no Mono, was already a vicious mercenary and murderer in life before he found the Beast Spear. Enjoying nothing so much as killing others, he used the Beast Spear on human beings until it devoured his humanity, leaving him as the monstrous, black-furred Guren. Guren would spend the centuries hunting down and devouring humans: men, women and children alike. Finally, he devoured the family of a man who would take the name Hyou and the two inflicted wounds and scars on one another, earning a mutual hatred. Hyou would hunt down Guren, following the trail of his atrocities. In their final duel, Guren tried to gain the upper hand by holding a woman and her child hostage, knowing Hyou would remember his own family. Guren planned to kill Hyou when his guard was down, before devouring the humans as a post-victory treat.
Also, OE, Draconis: "he managed to make the character based on Hitler, more likable in comparison." I assume said character is Phaeton? IMHO, if Phaeton still counts, that should be changed to "he managed to avoid being overshadowed by the character based on Hitler." Or something like that.
edited 28th Jun '16 11:43:18 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Since the Syndrome debate has been canned by the mods, and we have decided that we should still remove the Freudian Excuse from his "Never Again" entry due to how weak it is, Here's my proposed re write:
Syndrome: Disqualified for failing the heinous standard (a villain in a flashback was going to destroy an entire city with a rocket).
That removes his weak excuse, and gives a good reason for why he fails the heinous standard. Hopefully this explanation should get people to understand why he still does not qualify even with the new, less strict Offscreen Villainy policy, even if we ignore his weak Freudian Excuse.
Now, let's get back to other matters, like cleaning up the quotes. How about the film section?
PS: I am NOT reopening discussion on Syndrome or challenging the mods. I know they said to quit talking about him. I am just offering a rewrite of his Never Again entry. Please do not suspend me for this.
Edit: nevermind. Saw that they said no changes were to be made to the never again list either.
edited 28th Jun '16 12:45:08 PM by bobg
jjj
about we just put 'Does not breach the heinous standard?' No specifics to debate because someone will bring it back up
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Or copy what's for Turbo: "Insufficiently heinous."
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lost in Space
Done. Hope that settles it.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
on Syndrome for reasons stated prior. That should officially close the subject.
"a man resurrected from death having Matrix-style kung fu duels with a Mayan Oracle who works for the Illuminati."![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM DraftsHoly crap, I think I might actually wanna play this game now