During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm pretty sure we already deiced that 2012 Shredder doesn't count because he was shown to care about Karai in his latest appearance.
Siiiiiiiiiiiip
I've scrolled through a lot and must've missed that part. I support that notion, though. My bad.
My main point was agreeing with the Rat King being a CM, though. But eh.
...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.
Fair enough. Sorry, didn't mean to take the wind out of your sails.
I would agree that Rat King is the worse person on the show. Shredder wanted to hurt Splinter because he believed Splinter ruined his life (he was wrong), while Rat King wanted to hurt Splinter because he wanted to break Splinter's spirit and make him his slave. Shredder is very unsympathetic, but even his motives seem more justifiable then Rat King's, who is just some power mad misanthrope.
edited 21st Aug '14 6:01:53 PM by TheOverlord
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think I'll vote ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Rat King.
I got directed here by exploring the Danganronpa forum, and, after checking the Complete Monster video game page, I noticed that Monokuma and Junko weren't on it. Did no one come to discuss it, or was there a discussion and it was decided they didn't check enough boxes? This is a 1000 page thread, so I'm not sure I want to comb for it...
And on a different note, how about City of Heroes? I'm pretty sure that there's at least a couple of Complete Monsters in there.
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
I vote for Rat King.
On the heinous standard, the original story has Jeff killing his parents and Liu (who was released from Juvie after party witneses heard Randy admit that he lied during his fight with Jeff and saw that he and his friends were the real bad guys, and I am guessing Jeff was not arrested for killing them since it was in self defense). Killing his family was awful, but Jeff had a Freudian Excuse, while Randy did not.
jjj
You're like three pages late to the anime discussion. Anyway, to search the thread put "Complete Monster" and whatever character you're looking for in the Google site search (you might have to put "Subpages cleanup" to narrow it down) and that'll bring up all the pages they've been mentioned for.
Basically the feeling was they weren't heinous enough (we don't allow things that happen offscreen to count as a qualifier since Complete Monster can't be an Informed Attribute) and questionable moral agency (things like Insanity, Blue-and-Orange Morality and other things that impede your ability to make moral judgements. Or to put it another way). Apparantly the sequel sheds more light on what the Ultimate Despair was up to, but we're leaving that judgement until the western release next month to get a clearer idea of it.
edited 22nd Aug '14 4:31:13 AM by Shaoken
^That should be offscreen.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Thanks for catching that, fixed.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, there IS an exception to the Offscreen Villainy rule (an exception which maybe should be in the FAQ if it isn't already): If we see a murder, but the killer is a Serial Killer who's said to have killed, say 100 people, that can count (in other words, if a pattern's been established). For example, for the Las Vegas entry, we include him even though we only see one attempted rape.
Plus we allow GoryDiscretionShots or evidence of their crimes to count even if the crime itself takes place offscreen. The key point behind it is that it has to be demonstrable, not just something that we get told but never shown.
There is a whole heap of other little qualifiers and disqualifiers, but none of them really apply in Junko's case.
edited 22nd Aug '14 5:25:27 AM by Shaoken
Finding the relevant stuff in all those search terms is quite the challenge. I did find your review on her, though.
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff she claims to have done, which is offscreen, and even one of the characters points out that it could all be lies because they don't know better. But she certainly does enough onscreen through Monokuma. However ...
... I respectfully disagree about her questionable sanity being a strike against her. I don't believe she's void of hope. How can someone void of all hope even get up in the morning? Whether she'd admit it or not, she at least hoped to bring despair to everyone else.
And saying that she loved her friends, which is why she kept them alive? Doesn't she say the very next second that it's a total lie, and she was hoping that it would be an even greater despair to them to find out that a friend did this to them?
She kept her word in the killing game, because she was trying to tell a message. "See these people? The hope of the world? If I push the right buttons, they'll tear each other apart." Only Makoto tried to talk her out of the final execution, the rest were indifferent at best, but she rejected him because she wanted to "share her despair with the world" through her execution.
Does the fact that she gets a perverse pleasure out of despair, whether someone else's or her own, excuse her actions?
I'm probably a little biased, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that someone could set up something like "One Million Fungoes", and not immediately jump to the darkest tier in villainy, without getting the Joker's lawyer involved.
edited 22nd Aug '14 5:45:00 AM by ekimmak
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
"Doesn't she say the very next second that it's a total lie, and she was hoping that it would be an even greater despair to them to find out that a friend did this to them? "
Actually no she doesn't; I replayed that scene and of all the times she says that she lied that's the one thing she didn't immediately follow it up with.
"... I respectfully disagree about her questionable sanity being a strike against her. I don't believe she's void of hope. How can someone void of all hope even get up in the morning? Whether she'd admit it or not, she at least hoped to bring despair to everyone else. "
Well herein lies the biggest Catch-22 of the argument for her inclusion; to make her count as a Complete Monster you have to take her word at face value, but to take her word at face value (at least everything she doesn't immediately follow up with "actually that was a lie") paints the picture she is incapable of feeling hope (as she said several times throughout her motive rant).
"She kept her word in the killing game, because she was trying to tell a message. "See these people? The hope of the world? If I push the right buttons, they'll tear each other apart." Only Makoto tried to talk her out of the final execution, the rest were indifferent at best, but she rejected him because she wanted to "share her despair with the world" through her execution. "
I didn't get that last part. From just finishing the anime her reasoning for going through with her own execution was "don't take this final despair from me!" The fact that her eyes do that full circling spiral thing that has been a visual indicator for crazy and insane for decades doesn't lend itself to the idea she's thinking of anything of the bigger picture. The dialogue doesn't discredit the idea she's in the middle of a despair-gasam.
"I'm probably a little biased, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that someone could set up something like "One Million Fungoes", and not immediately jump to the darkest tier in villainy, without getting the Joker's lawyer involved. "
Hang around this thread for two dozen pages and you'll find many, many different villains who make "One Million Fungoes" look quaint. Not that it really matters as we don't compare works against each other beyond "is this show heinous enough to have a Complete Monster?"
And to make my argument even more confusing:
"But she certainly does enough onscreen through Monokuma. However ... "
I touched on this with the anime more than I did with the game, but just through the killing game she's only a step or two above Celes/Celeste (who manipulated someone into committing one murder, then killed him, and was perfectly happy to get everyone else killed just so she could live in her dream Castle), and probably down a notch from Genocide/r Jill/Syo (who is an unrepentant mass murderer with evidence in game of her crimes, openly confessing she wished she killed another student in front of his friends at the trial of his murder, showed no guilt when she thought she killed someone else and - in the anime at least - threatened to start slicing up Hina if she didn't get out of there that second).
The thing that would push her into the top heinousness spot would be whatever the Most Awful, Most tragic, Most Despair-inducing Incident in Human History was, but we never get an answer for that in game one (and we're waiting for game two to get it's English release before diving back into the issue).
edited 22nd Aug '14 6:20:48 AM by Shaoken
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Anyone care to condense Kil'Jaeden?
Speaking of Sin City, I realized that none of the villains (Kevin or Yellow Bastard) are on the list. Shouldn't they be?
For Milady and the Rat King.
edited 22nd Aug '14 8:39:31 AM by holders
They're on the comic page.
And yes, let's condense Kil'Jaeden
Doesn't even like this username
An attempt:
Kil'jaeden the Deceiver, the demon in charge of the Burning Legion in the absence of Sargeras, is responsible for much evil in the history of Warcraft. He was once one of the leaders of the Eredar, but willingly embraced his corruption following Sargeras's deception and vowed to destroy his former friend Velen for refusing. When he found Velen and his Draenei refugees living on Draenor alongside the orcs he appeared to the shaman Ner'zhul as the spirit of his mate and tricked him into thinking that the Draenei were plotting against his race. When Ner'zhul found out the truth, Kil'jaeden stripped him of his powers and began working through his disciple Gul'dan. Through him Kil'jaeden introduced warlock magic to orcish society and orchestrated a genocide of the pacifistic Draenei that nearly wiped them out, all because they wanted no part of what Sargeras had to offer. The orcs were then rewarded with the Blood of Mannoroth, condemning them to demonic corruption as The Horde. A few years later when Draenor was collapsing in the aftermath of the Alliance incursion Ner'zhul was caught by Kil'jaeden when trying to escape. The shaman pleaded with Kil'jaeden to spare him, and was rewarded by being turned into the Lich King—imprisoned in ice in order to create the Scourge. Kil'jaeden grants mercy only to further his own goals, and is not above eliminating his own minions should they displease him. Though Kil'jaeden is more hands-off than many other Warcraft villains, the atrocities committed by both the original Horde and the Scourge can be traced back to him.
Still too long?
edited 22nd Aug '14 9:08:42 AM by LordXavius
Maybe they should be on both. Otherwise, why contest anyone from Sin City 2? Are also not on the comic page?
Because Sin City 2 will contain entirely original content not in the comics.
That makes sense. Although, I do feel uncfomfortable when those two are not listed.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
263 words now; passable, though more condensing wouldn't hurt.
Holders, I see your point, but the first film is like a direct adaptation (though, if Film!Senator counts, we can have that at the film page and mention the comics page or something).
Okay. Thank you.
Doesn't even like this username
Trimming it a bit more...
Kil'jaeden the Deceiver, the demon in charge of the Burning Legion in the absence of Sargeras, was once one of the leaders of the Eredar, but embraced corruption following Sargeras's deception and vowed to destroy his former friend Velen for refusing. When he found Velen and the Draenei living on Draenor alongside the orcs he appeared to the shaman Ner'zhul as his dead mate and tricked him into thinking that the Draenei were evil. When Ner'zhul found out the truth, Kil'jaeden stripped him of his powers and began working through his disciple Gul'dan. Through him Kil'jaeden introduced warlock magic to orcish society and orchestrated the near-genocide of the Draenei. The orcs were then given the Blood of Mannoroth, condemning them to demonic corruption as The Horde. Some years later, when Draenor was collapsing, Ner'zhul was caught by Kil'jaeden when trying to escape. He pleaded with Kil'jaeden to spare him, and was "rewarded" by being turned into the Lich King—imprisoned in ice to create the Scourge. Kil'jaeden grants mercy only to further his own goals, and is not above eliminating his own minions if they stop being useful. All the atrocities committed by both the original Horde and the Scourge can be traced back to him.
edited 22nd Aug '14 9:51:11 AM by LordXavius
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
with a few slight tweaks:
- embraced corruption...
- Kil'jaeden grants mercy only to further his own goals, and is not above eliminating his own minions if they stop being useful.
Briefly going back to the images for the X-Men Monster page, there is a scene in God Loves, Man Kills where Stryker is trying to shoot Kitty Pryde. He is trying to kill a hero, which is generic villainy, but she is 13 at the time, so that seems like it could be a monstrous act.
