YMMV/PokemonAnime clean-up

Okay so some people has expressed concerns with the YMMV page for Anime.Pokemon being a mess of Natter, Example Indentation and arguably worship of the older anime seasons and its show runner.

edited 5th Jun '15 3:55:35 AM by MorningStar1337

I think a dedicated thread is overkill here but okay.

edited 5th Jun '15 5:18:51 AM by VeryMelon

Recent edit:

• Seinfeld Is Unfunny: The OS gets the most praise of any region and many feel the show has declined greatly since then. However, if one looks at it objectively without Nostalgia Filter, one may find that it hasn't aged as well as many like to claim. Especially considering how many of the complaints people raise about the anime to day had their roots in that region and the fact that many of the regions since then have been able to reuse its formula while ironing out its notable flaws.

I feel like this entry as written is Flame Bait (accusing anyone of Nostalgia Filter = bad) and needs a rewrite or axe. Opinions?

The Nostalgia Filter part can go, but the rest of it is okay. How's this?

• Seinfeld Is Unfunny: The OS gets the most praise of any region and many feel the show has declined greatly since then. However, one may find that it hasn't aged as well as many like to claim. Especially considering how many of the complaints people raise about the anime to day had their roots in that region and the fact that many of the regions since then have been able to reuse its formula while ironing out its notable flaws.

edited 30th Jun '15 9:43:57 AM by VeryMelon

Been busy, sorry for late reply.

I think it's still a little too accusatory and might need an entire rewrite.

Also I just noticed there's a Hypocritical Fandom entry. I think we need to axe that one just because of how the trope is set up (plus I don't think it allows examples?).

Hypocritical Fandom can be place on YMMV pages, It's not listed as In Universe Examples Only. I see no issue with the example as written.

This is the best I think I can do with your contested entry.

• Seinfeld Is Unfunny: The OS gets the most praise of any region and many feel the show has declined greatly since then. However, one may find that it hasn't aged well due to the Early-Installment Weirdness.

edited 1st Jul '15 6:09:24 PM by VeryMelon

I honestly think Hypocritical Fandom should be Flamebait, but w/e.

Also, the rewrite.

Entry replaced.

Becuase I rather not be seen as The Load for the thread I made, (granted one inspired by ATT) I have an entry to ask about, mainly the Canon Sue entry. Are the Sue tropes inherenly bad writing or is the potholed part of this entry valid:

• Canon Sue: XY!Ash. He's hailed as an amazing battler and wins a lot more matches, his whole group fawns over him, are nowhere near his equals, and almost all the relationships revolve around an appreciation of Ash. Much of his personality is still kept generically "I love Pokemon, friends and battles!" Of course, given how much hate his BW incarnation got for losing several matches, some welcome the use of an Ash more akin to Kanto.

On a related note, I'd point out that Clemont did give Ash a run for his money until the Goodra/Luxray match and that Korrina did curbstomp him the first time around

edited 1st Jul '15 8:23:25 PM by MorningStar1337

All Mary Sue tropes are Bad Writing. That being said I doubt Ash is a Canon Sue in this context, as one can argue he's finally being protrayed as a competent individual without being reset all the time(I haven't watched any of X and Y so I wouldn't really know).

Wanted to add an Ass Pull example about a recent-ish episode. It was brought up in our Pokemon thread and several people agreed with me this was pretty dumb; Very Melon can confirm.

• During the fight with Valerie, Hawlucha is able to break Trick Room by hitting it with X-scissor. Not only does this completely ignore game mechanics (the only way to end Trick Room is to either wait it out or by having another Pokemon use it), the idea that you can stop a Reality Warping effect by what is effectively punching it hard enough is just incredibly dumb.

I agree with the example being added.

I agree with the example being added, but I should point out that between "Aim for the Horn" and "Thunder Armor" and pokemon evolving mid-battle (not Mega-evolving), It's clear that the anime doesn't care about Game Mechanics. the last sentence alone is enough justification for the example.

Rewrite.

• During the fight with Valerie, Hawlucha is able to break Trick Room by hitting it with X-scissor. The idea that you can stop a Reality Warping effect by what is effectively punching it hard enough is just incredibly dumb.

much better,

Done, and added a hidden note telling people to come here.

Also, do we need this example under Ass Pull?

• The strengths and weaknesses of the characters in the anime can be summarized like so: Everyone else<Movie Legendaries and Team Rocket<Ash<<<<<<<<Rivals<Everyone else.

Speaking as an outside observer - heck no. Not only does it look extremely whiny, but that style of potholing is not looked kindly upon.

It's funny, but it doesn't read like a legit example of a asspull.

Deleted.

Might as well try to make this clean-up effort more organized, so let's start with the Ass Pull entries. My comments will be bolded.

• Ass Pull: The anime uses this to create the worst kind of Plot Armor. Fidelity to the games has never been a strength of the anime, so many important battles are won and lost due to the writers making shit up.
  • Many an attack has had its power mitigated by introducing strange physics into battle at the writers' convenience — in the rematch for the Thunder Badge, Pikachu safely No Sells Raichu's Thunderbolt by balancing on its tail and using it as a ground to divert the electricity.^note Which makes no sense, as the energy still has to pass through the body of the Pokémon. This "strategy" has been used by Grass-types with their roots as well, though at least they have the excuse of resisting Electric in the Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors^note Technically, electric-types resist their own element, too, but Pikachu's poor defense has no right to No Sell anything more dangerous than a breeze. If I remember my science correctly, the Thunderbolt thing might actually not be an asspull because it's following actual physics or whatever. Need a second opinion on this.
    • The very well known "Aim for the horn!" trick used during Ash's first fight against Blaine, which somehow allowed Pikachu to ignore the Ground-type Rhydon's immunity to Electric attacks by aiming for its horn. While Ash didn't win the match due to this, it's still easily the most well known example of the writers' laziness. Keep, it's legit.
    • Another particularly infamous example is "Thunder Armor", where Pikachu used Thunder on himself and Swellow to overpower Lunatone's and Solrock's defenses. It comes out of nowhere with no real foreshadowing, and the technique is never used again. Same as above.
  • Pokemon will spontaneously evolve at the beginning of or during a match in order to turn the tide of combat. It first happens to Gym Leader Koga's Venonat (requiring Ash instead challenge a Venomoth), but Ash gets to enjoy it himself during the first round of the Indigo League tournament, when the writers backed themselves into a wall by requiring him to use his Krabby, which had never before even been in a battle, so they had it evolve into a Kingler and go on to sweep an Exeggutor, Seadra, and Golbat respectively. Not sure about this, since waiting until after battle to evolve is something you can't justify outside of a RPG Mechanics 'Verse. It's definitely lazy, though.
    • It must be remembered, though, that Ash did have two Pokemon as back-ups - it's just that Krabby/Kingler managed to sweep his opponent's entire team all by itself in that battle. There was no real tension there if you think about it, it was more of A Day in the Limelight for a Mon which hadn't fought before - it's more likely the writers were trying to be subversive of typical conflict-based tropes, possibly to give Ash an easy early victory before they got harder later into the tourney. The real question is whether it stands up to scrutiny, or if the Early-Installment Weirdness of Ash winning a League battle without genuine suspense looks weak from a more critical standpoint. Natter, we should delete.
    • However, the most infamous example occurs in the Ash vs. Cameron match (in Pokemon Black and White) where Ash actually ends up playing the victim. To explain, Cameron was at a disadvantage of 5 to 6 Pokémon, but manages to sweep HALF of Ash's team with his Riolu (who, after beating Unfezant, endures an absolute beat-down from Snivy before evolving into Lucario and defeating both her and Pikachu).^note And when you think about it, he actually won 3 on 6 because he stupidly brings out his Ferrothorn and Swanna in disadvantageous match-ups against Pignite and Pikachu respectively just to get utterly annihilated. More of a complaint of how the writers handled a blatant Diabolus ex Machina, imo. Whether we keep it or not depends on whether the evolution thing is kept.
  • Pikachu losing to Trip's Snivy at the beginning of Black and White. Even though Pikachu was unable to use Electric attacks (which was due to another Ass Pull) it should have been able to curb stomp Snivy with non-Electric attacks like Iron Tail due to the vast difference in experience and power between the two of them. Keep, this was stupid.
  • Pokémon attacks accomplishing feats that shouldn't be possible, which may or may not overlap with Critical Research Failure.
    • For example, Safeguard working like a version of Protect instead of blocking against status effects. Not sure, it's more like laziness.
    • Another notable example is using Aromatherapy as a health-restoring power rather than a status-negating one as Shaymin uses it in the eleventh movie. Not sure, seems overly nitpicky.
    • At one point in the Hoenn saga May had Bulbasaur use a Razor Leaf to divert an incoming Fire Blast. How that even works is mind-boggling. Keep, it's dumb.

There's some Word Cruft in a couple and some obviously bad indentation, but I can fix those later.

edited 24th Jul '15 5:31:56 PM by Karxrida

Cut the electric attack example, keep "Aim for the Horn!" , keep Thunder Armor, cut mid-battle evolution, keep Trip's Snivy beating Pikachu, cut Safegaurd example, cut Aromatherapy example, keep Razor Leaf example.

I say we keep the evolution example and the B/W sub example. Even if pokemon would evolve mid battle (and I mean regular evolutions), having a pokemon evolve in Cameron's battle with Ash (Note that the former only Brought 5 pokemon) and has the newly evolved mon deliver a Curb-Stomp Battle definitely fits.

Also isn't Diabolus ex Machina an Ass Pull subtrope anyway?

edited 24th Jul '15 5:37:29 PM by MorningStar1337

Diabolus ex Machina is actually an objective trope like the other Ex Machinas, but they can definitely overlap with Ass Pull.

Again, as an outside observer, it seems like a lot of those examples are dependent on the assumption that the anime would adhere to the Pokemon games' rules - which is very obviously not the case.

Not all of them do, and for that matter even if they didn't the methods used for these victories are simply implausible according to the anime's own logic and never come up again, which is the main reason they fall under asspull.