Character Pages: Work vs. Continuity

If you go to Ask The Tropers, you will see that I'm having a debate with others as to whether or not we should reorganize Characters.Marvel Cinematic Universe into it being organized by group or organized by character franchise (I am arguing the former and a few others are arguing the latter). I pointed out the way that Characters.Star Wars was organized, and they said it shouldn't be like that, saying the we should ignore that the movies, the animated series, and the more recent novels take place in the same canon and instead organize by the work that the characters are associated with.

It seems that we all have different ways of organizing character pages, and those ways often conflict each other. There are some who want the characters within the same continuity to be organized together while others want the characters within the same work to be organized together and ignore continuity organizing. Characters.Star Wars is currently the former while Characters.Marvel Cinematic Universe is currently the latter. I want to hear from many of the tropers here what their prefered method of character organizing is: work or continuity?

edited 22nd Feb '15 1:40:09 PM by SatoshiBakura

For the sake of the people not acquainted with the whole continuity, I would say "per work".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Same. I checked Characters.Star Wars, and I'm locked out of finding characters, because I don't know the organizations.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I was confused at first, but I figured it out eventually. The only character I had trouble locating was Darth Maul. I know you would like to change it back, but the change is way to complex to be undone.

I'd say it depends on if the works are intended to stand alone. Splitting, say, Harry Potter by book would be confusing and weird

Well, for the MCU, the films are not exactly that stand alone. For example, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. not only spoils that in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, HYDRA has infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D., but uses it as part of the main plot. There some others (Dr. Selvig being brainwashed by Loki in The Avengers still affects in Thor: The Dark World for example, as well as Loki being imprisoned after his attack on Manhattan), though that is the most major one.

Harry Potter begins with a relatively small cast of characters; relatively few die off or leave the screen while each year adds a dozen or more new characters.

In contrast, Star Wars shares about six characters between the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy.

Edward Selving appears in three of the films of the MCU. The continuity of cast is very low. In addition, many characters in this franchise show up in exactly one work, and never appear again.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

But that's not the major connecting point, but one of many. There is a Zerg Rush of connections between the movies, but Eric Selvig isn't the most major one. Again, it's HYDRA being revealed to have infiltrated S.H.I.E.L.D., which causes a great Rewatch Bonus and is bound to affect future movies.

Absolutely true. That's why we have the Marvel Cinematic Universe page. To justify more than that page, you need to continue the chain of logic.

• You could explain why the continuity of plot means we shouldn't have individual work pages, and just lump all the stories together under one title.
• You could explain why the continuity of plot means we shouldn't have individual character pages, and just lump all the groups together under one title.

But your statement of continuity does not explain why Erik Selvig is a character that affects Agent Carter, or why the works pages of Iron Man should point to the characters of Guardians of the Galaxy. You haven't connected the continuity of the series as a whole with how it affects the narrative conventions of characters within each work.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That still doesn't mean that the MCU movies are intended to be stand alone. If something is going to be linking the movies together, it doesn't have to be absolute. There are little things that link all of the movies together, not just a giant, overarching plot point.

Besides, we all ready have one in Thanos, who plays a role in The Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy, and will be the Big Bad of Avengers: Infinity War, which will be the finally for all of the MCU. Also S.H.I.E.L.D. itself is an overarching plot point. They appear in Iron Man, Iron Man 2 Film/Thor, Captain America: The First Avenger, The Avengers, and Captain America: The Winter Soldier. And now Captain America: The Winter Soldier reveals how HYDRA affected everyone through S.H.I.E.L.D..

edited 23rd Feb '15 4:04:09 AM by SatoshiBakura

Regardless of the plot connections between the movies, they have mostly different characters. Sorting the characters by movie makes the characters easier to find and allows people who have not seen all of them to avoid spoilers.

Yes it could be considered easier in a way, but no it doesn't prevent spoilers. If there is just one thing that happens in one work in MCU, multiple character pages get changed, regardless of franchise. If there is something I haven't seen yet, I avoid all of the character pages to avoid spoilers because I don't know how it will affect the MCU.

That's patently untrue.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

You don't just say something is untrue without explaining why. Besides, I'm just saying it from my experience.

Let me give you an example: One of the characters in the Iron Man film series is Senator Stern. I highlight one of his spoilers, thinking it's from one of the Iron Man films, but it turns out it's from Captain America The Winter Soldier, which I haven't seen yet (I actually have, but just pretend that I haven't). Oh shit, now I know that Stern is part of HYDRA, and that was something I wanted to find out myself by watching the film, but I had no knowledge that it was from the film.

That is the kind of problem I'm talking about.

You said

That means not a single episode/film could pass without changing the character sheets of at least two other works in the MCU.

The actual state of affairs is much weaker. Because of The 'Verse, anything that happens in one work may affect things in the rest of the MCU.

Let's address Senator Stern specifically. He shows up in Iron Man 2 and The Winter Soldier, correct? There are no other works in the MCU that feature Senator Stern?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That was just hyperbole, actually. I would say several times, it happens (mostly in the movies), but there are enough moments. You are acting like that there must be an absolute connection between the movies and shows and what not (S.H.I.E.L.D. probably does count, but it isn't in Guardians of the Galaxy). It's like saying that one can beat a billion weak enemies because they are all weak, yet the trope Zerg Rush exists. There are both little and big connections, but there are a lot of little ones.

Yes, it's just those two films that Stern shows up in so far. But still, those are two different character franchises, so which character franchise would Stern go under?

Both. You haven't connected the continuity of the series as a whole with how it affects the narrative conventions of characters within each work. You could explain why the continuity of plot means we shouldn't have individual work pages, and just lump all the stories together under one title. But you haven't. Merely stated that everything belongs under one grouping.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

You are not making any sense at all. I've been trying, yet you are denying it. Again, you are acting like that the connection has to be absolute. But do we give shows with episodes that don't affect each other one character page. The MCU is, in a sense, one mega series of movies and shows. At this point, you just seem to be denying any proof I give without reason or elaboration. Please elaborate why instead of just saying no, because that's all you are doing.

edited 7th Mar '15 12:00:40 PM by SatoshiBakura

It's funny to hear that I don't make any sense to you, because the arguments I've read from you do not make sense to me.

The argument I'm seeing from you can be summarized as "The following example belongs on The Incredible Hulk work page:"

• The Unreveal: The organization Peggy works for is hot on the tail of "Zodiac," an enigmatic person or persons (possibly both) that has eluded even their best groups of agents. As Peggy closes in on their operation, she seems to have cornered them - however, upon following information on Zodiac's location she finds only a mysterious serum that is not elaborated on in the short itself.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

That's not even remotely close to what I'm arguing. What I'm doing is not random, it's sorted where it makes the most sense. I have no idea where you get that logic.

I think we can conclude that we are at a stalemate if neither of us knows what the other is talking about. We should get another person in here.

edited 9th Mar '15 5:21:06 AM by SatoshiBakura

My secondhand impression of the MCU is that while these works share an universe, there isn't enough overlap to justify them sharing character pages. So, I would keep Characters.Marvel Cinematic Universe as it is.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Character pages are a sub-page to the work page. That's why the pagetype is "a work's examples page". It's a specific form of splitting a work page into parts.

Given this fact, you say you want to collect all of the MCU's characterization tropes as a subpage to the MCU, instead of by the work it appears in. What I've asked you to do is to explain why this makes sense, and you have supported your argument by citing plot developments, which doesn't explain why characterization tropes are singled out.

You haven't explained why Androcles' Lion is a trope that applies to every work in the MCU, and Armies Are Evil is a trope that applies only to The Incredible Hulk.

Your arguments boil down to "one work in the MCU affects all other works, therefore the tropes should all be organized together", which I logically conclude means that a trope that applies to any one work in the MCU applies to every work in the MCU. I disagree with this argument. I would like to hear a better argument for why characterization tropes need special treatment in the MCU.

edited 9th Mar '15 5:33:48 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Plot tropes shouldn't go on Characters subpages anyway.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I agree with Crazy Samaritan here. The star wars page followed the "treat it as one big franchise" logic and it is a goddamn maze to go through.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Heck, nowadays, the videogame portion of the Pokemon Characters page has the same mentality, even though there are only a handful of characters that are featured in multiple generations and half of those are just Cameos.

Seriously. Why should someone who's trying to decide whether Red is The Stoic versus Hot-Blooded need to know about the existence of Hugh?

Conversely, the Classic Pokemon Anime, which is often taken as a single work, has its character page divided by saga, with special pages for Ash & Pikachu and the Terrible Trio. It's not a perfect system, as looking at Brock's entry in the OS page contains spoilers for up to Sinnoh, as he was a member of the team up to then, and character entries for when The Bus Came Back are lumped in with the respective character's primary season, but it works better than not.

That being said, when a character from one work is in a sequel or a derivative of that work where they don't have a significant role and nothing new is revealed about them versus the prior instalment, do they merit a full entry, a line saying "For [character], see [prior work]", or just not be mentioned? (If a later work expands on a character's role, that character should have their own entry for that work.)

edited 16th May '15 10:45:34 PM by DonaldthePotholer