DC Comics' Corny-ness vs. Marvel Comics' Cynacism

For the longest time, i've been having issues whenever i think about the TV shows based on DC Comics and Marvel Comics. I like both, but both seem to give me too many negative things to about

For DC Comics, it the essential corny-ness; whenever i watch DC shows these days or at least think about them, i can't help but think about the saccharine and PSA-esque nature of the earlier Filmation cartoons, which were a whole new level of Corny. It's embarrassing to even think about!

While for Marvel, the problem lies in the cynical things that i have seen, the stuff that makes me feel sorry for the main characters. For example; J. Jonah Jameson and Senator Robert Kelly, the things those two do and say just make me sick and hate them beyond measure

In B-4 'complain thread'.

Frankly? For better or worse, Marvel and DC have been pretty much the same in the overall Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism for a while now. Your point stood better in the classic days of the rivalry between the companies, but since DC started copying the Marvel model with better or worse success and the creators and editors began flowing freely between the companies, they have become almost indistisguinshable. The same gimmicks, the same flow of darkness with the occasional light hearted bump, the same fans (including the same fans stuck in the past and trying to keep themselves in the days of Marvel Zombies vs. Johnny Dcs)...

I'd argue at this point in time, DC is actually more Cynical than Marvel.

If anything, Marvel has a better claim to light heartedness because, if I recall, they have certain comics geared towards a younger audience. I distinctly recall a comic where the Avengers had to fight the villain with baseball and in poker.

Really the reputation is, at least in part, a hold over from the 60s when DC was at the height of Silver Age cheesiness and Marvel was trying to reign that by putting more real life situations into comics.

Yeah, that whole comparison started with comics like Spider-Man and X-Men where they tried to make the characters more "human". They've been pretty much the same in tone since, at least, the mid 70s.

Maybe the individual comics themselves, with some more than others, (Suicide Squad, I'm looking at you; mainly the Ostrander run, since that's what I've read,) but I think that, on the whole, the DC Universe (pre Flashpoint at least,) is a lighter, happier place, with the citizens generally respecting and looking up to their heroes, whereas with Marvel, you sometimes wonder why the heroes should bother saving the ungrateful bastards for the umpteenth time.

edited 16th May '14 8:11:45 AM by kkhohoho

I see what you mean, but I don't think DC was necessarily any cornier or more saccharine than Marvel was at that point.

edited 16th May '14 3:00:14 PM by supergod

DC has a reputation for being "cornier" at that point because they hadn't actually grasped the concept of character conflict yet. A good example is JLA and its Follow the Leader counterpart, the Fantastic Four. Stan Lee was told to create a team of superheroes to cash in on the Justice League, but unlike the JLA where everyone smiled, shook hands, and got along, the FF series was full of arguing and in-fighting. Take a shot every time the Thing tries to beat up the Human Torch for making a smartass quip, and you'll be dead of liver failure.

So while both companies were decidedly goofy and campy at that time (read any Thor or Iron Man tale), Marvel is touted as edgier and more cynical because in addition to the campiness and silliness, they had heroes who disliked one another.

And in some cases, disliked themselves. (Ben Grimm, I'm looking at you.) The main difference was that Marvel's heroes, by comparison, had noticeable intentional flaws. DC's heroes generally weren't flawed, (or at least not intentionally; SuperMan could be quite the dick at times, though you never got the feeling he was intended to be so,) and because of this, there wasn't much room for interesting character conflict in books like Justice League, or even much Character Development in the solo's. There were exceptions, of course; Doom Patrol was probably the stand-out, but Metamorpho and Metal Men are contenders as well. The way I see it, there were two sides to the Silver Age. You had DC's, which is what most people think of when they think 'Silver Age', and then you had Marvel's, which could still be silly, but was also more grounded by comparison, and with heroes that you were supposed to relate to rather than look up to. Either approach is fine, but while I do enjoy DC's Silver Age, (and perhaps for reasons other than what was intended,) it's Marvel's Silver Age that I enjoyed more, especially when it reached the mid-60's or so. (And I'd wager that the non-'Big Two' companies followed one of the two styles; Charlton, with Steve Ditko, probably followed Marvel's style, for example.)

edited 17th May '14 6:38:48 AM by kkhohoho

Eh, I don't know about New Fifty Two but Marvel's universe was still more toward moral ambiguity than DC's throughout post crisis...I'm not sure cynicism was the right word but how many people do you see arguing Joker is right for his mass murders or Luthor is right for annihilating Krypton.

Compared to Magneto (reverse Earth's rotation, cause global EMP, put "homo sapiens" in ovens, change reality itself to put his buddies in charge) was right? Okay, the oven thing wasn't his fault but the rest stands. Or break up Reed's marriage, send my girlfriend to hell for power, eradicate all freedom, wipe the US out of existence Dr. Doom was right? I mean fansites with t-shirts and websites. DC generally did not have "heroes fight and torture other heroes over how to be a hero" events.

As far as I remember, Superman and Wonder Woman never forced the world to worship them without aid from some corruption beyond their control like Thor has. But even on a smaller scale, when as either of them built a private estate on public property and then threatened to destroy the capital of the government for objecting? For that matter, when has DC comic USA tried to enforce its policies on sovereign nations in broad daylight? When has DC United Nations started covert wars for good PR? DC never romanticized interplanetary murder by prolonged torture the way Marvel has with Thanos or depicted a being with high protein of sentient civilizations as being necessary for the universe to function. The Source has never suggested destroying the universe in favor of a new one it likes better either (or for any reason, really) the way the Living Tribunal has. They damn sure don't compare their heroes to Jesus the way DC was doing with Superman.

Now, in the wider media that may not be so much the case. In movies Ironman, Hulk, Thor and Captain America have been a lot less morally ambiguous and yes, less cynical than say, the last Batman trilogy. Where he used an invasive surveillance system to catch the Joker. But that was still portrayed as wrong, a temporary, necessary evil never to be resorted to again.

In the comics proper, Spider-man did that on top of having a hired army, public executions and body jacking and was presented as better for it. So maybe, cynicism is not the right word, but there has been a definite contrast in the two settings, it did not up and disappear the moment a few writers jumped ship.

He wasn't presented as better, that was the point. Superior Spider-Man ends with Otto admitting that Peter will always be better than him and then willingly sending himself off to oblivion to allow Peter to return.

The idea that Marvel was legitimately trying to push Otto as the new, "better" Spider-Man because he killed people and violated civil liberties was a bait and switch.

edited 17th May '14 8:30:06 AM by comicwriter

Maybe that storyline would have worked better with another villain taking over Pete's body. I love Otto, but he also was a guy who had tried to commit global genocide at least twice before. I can't help wondering if the 'classic good guy methods vs. bad boy methods' would have made for a more interesting contrast and debate with a less dowright evil guy replacing Peter.

In JLA: Tower of Babel, we discover that Batman has been keeping contingency plans for every member of the JLA. Identity Crisis had the heroes use a mind wipe on a villain and when Batman discovers this and protests, they mind wipe him as well. Infinite Crisis had Wonder Woman kill a villain, causing the "big three" to go their separate ways, and in the meantime Bruce develops a system to monitor and identify metahuman threats (which then develops a mind of it's own). I really don't think we're ever made to "support" them when they go over the line. Captain America and Spider-Man would still get pissed off at heroes who kill. Even Wolverine would disagree with some of Scott's plans.

As for the morally ambiguous villains, yes someone like Joker is irredeemably evil, but so are people like Crossbones, Bullseye, and Red Skull. You also have people like Ra's Al Ghul, Sinestro (sometimes), the Rogues, Secret Six, etc. On the less villainous side, you have Lobo, Vril Dox, Catwoman, Amanda Waller, etc., who are also presented as morally ambiguous. Marvel had Norman Osborn get into a high position in the US government, but I don't think they ever made an actual super-villain their president for as long as DC did.

edited 18th May '14 3:58:13 AM by supergod

@Supergod

Should mention that Tower of Babel is the first story on a cross-over scale that had Batman's crazy paranoia be questioned by his allies. Most stories that had heroes paranoia tendencies or issues that affected the regulars or involved their allies stemmed from Batman pre-New 52.

Captain America does kill people if he thinks it calls for it. He started off that way and probably would have been sympathetic to the fact Wonder Woman had broken bones and a man saying "kill me". Stuff like Massacre, Goldbug, Black Goliath were what police could have handled at that point or slaughtering weaker men who happened to be on his side, for contrast. He had no such protest when Hercules tried to smash a man's head with his club in the heat of battle and then sang a song about how he tried to kill him and was amazed he didn't die. She-Hulk, who also doesn't really kill people also didn't really care.

Spider-man does have a no kill ever policy but he's still perfectly willing to team up with Morbius, Blade, The Punisher, Ghost Rider and Comicbook/Wolverine when they are around. Even when they had killed people he objected to killing while working together they rarely dwelt on it long. Though he's pretty forgiving of Punisher's repeated attempts to kill him, so maybe a better example against my point is would be Daredevil? Point is, Spider-man's new behavior was a bait and switch but when he went 1984 on New York his reputation improved up until people found he was running an illegal hospital. The monitoring, the army, the executions... aside from Sandman, most people seemed to be more concerned that he had simply become different than what they had come to expect more than "you know, that might be kind of bad."

I could go on about how Ras and Luthor tend to be subversive and manipulative while Doom and Magneto are out in the open with their intentions but I won't since none of that rebuttal touches on how the Marvel universe was more messed up on a cosmic level. I suppose an argument could be made for the Lucifer-Swamp thing comics, Vertigo got Exiled from Continuity, pre New 52, to which you could argue there are also the much lighter hearted minimarvels. Point being, the two did not just become indistinguishable after the seventies or whatever. Beyond tone of story, Marvel's comics have consistently been a more jumbled mess in theme and cosmology. Their take on super powers was a lot different too. Flying bricks were a lot more common on DC Earth and combo platters a lot more extensive. Power incontinence much less of an issue.

edit:Literature/{{1984}} goes nowhere? Who knew?

edited 18th May '14 3:23:24 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

I find it hard to really consider Marvel cynical, given books like Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, She-Hulk, Mighty Avengers, Silver Surfer - books that are just fun. I think some Marvel titles are cynical, but by and large, I think Marvel is trying to take a balanced approach right now.

Spider-Man HAS killed before. I forget who, or under what circumstances (I'm sure there are people who know) but he's done it. From what I understand, he's done it in circumstance that presented no other option. And it's had an effect on him, which is, I think, the biggest deal of all. I really can't get behind a character who kills his enemies without hesitation and thinks nothing of it. The take on it that has been used with Spider-Man seems to me the most realistic.

Seriously, the "no killing-ever" IS mostly unrealistic. I'd rather the writers kept the killing to a minimum (depending on the character, natch) and actually showed consequences, even if only personal, internal consequences.

Marvel actually has a fair number of heroes who do kill. Iron Man has killed on occasion, and Captain America is an odd duck. He explicitly killed Axis soldiers in the Golden Age (where in general there was less emphasis on Thou Shall Not Kill for EVERYONE) and was shown to kill people in flashbacks in The Invaders, but there was period where Marvel tried to retcon this and explicitly say Steve had never EVER killed anyone before an incident in the 80's where he killed a terrorist and then had a massive breakdown because of it. it is once again canon though that he kills people when he feels he has to.

The Avengers alone have a few. Aside from Wolverine I know Black Widow, Black Panther, Winter Soldier, and the Hulk have all killed before.

The movies take this Up To Eleven where pretty much everyone is shown willing to use lethal force across the board.

edited 18th May '14 4:01:40 PM by comicwriter

The worst part of it is, i can't even think about DC Comics without my mind showing me scenes that are too saccharine, too corny and too warranting of a face-palm or an "Oh Brother" look. This is a problem because i love DC comics and my other option is the cynical, harsh and depressing world of Marvel.

Maybe you need to be directed to something cooler like Hitman.

edited 19th May '14 10:44:00 AM by supergod

DC's the saccharine and corny one? I thought they were the "rip everybody's arms off" one?

Which is very much overcompensation for being associated with Superfriends.