Pathfinder

Well, like many other offerings in the game, the race builder is flawed. I mean, I appreciate it for being the most robust offering of its type within the d20 system, particularly when it was released (before anyone brings up stuff like GURPS or Champions, I did qualify it with "within the d20 system"). That said, between evolving understanding of the system, play style, and just plain tweaking, yes, they probably should have a 2.0 version of that builder.

That said, I do see some of the logic behind what's being described. For the quadruped perk, keep in mind that it gives a significant bonus against trip attempts (and let's not forget just how useful those are - the trip build is popular for reasons), and an extra 10 feet of movement per round. That's basically two-and-a-half feats right there (the defensive bonus of Improved Trip and two Fleets). Not bad for only 2 RP. While I agree that the "not humanoid" and "large" requirements (minimum, +9 RP) are overly onerous, you as the GM have the right to waive those as need be to fit the customization in your own game.

For "like half-elves, but aberrations," I note that having the aberration subtype is only 3 RP, which actually gives it a leg up on the monstrous humanoid subtype (same cost, but you get immunities against spells like charm person, which is really useful). If it really were just exactly the same, but with the type altered, it would make sense (with the extra immunities and the upgrade to darkvision) to be worth a touch more than a regular half-elf.

Now, on the other hand, fast healing is absurdly expensive for a reason - anything with it is absurdly hard to kill, particularly if they play smart and defensive (acquire DR from armor or magic, track down a source of spell resistance, use combat maneuvers to whittle down a foe's offensive capabilities... pretty standard stuff even if you don't have fast healing). There's a reason that regeneration and fast healing are constantly hit with the Nerf bat - even in the watered-down version that's in Pathfinder, it's still absurdly powerful. There's a reason that a ring of regeneration cost 90,000 gp, and that only gives fast healing 1 - even with those limitations, it's still seen as one of the best things to pick up. Slapping fast healing 5 onto something makes it obscenely difficult to kill, so I think that's one of the cases where the race builder works.

It's part of a general trend to make various powers that can break encounters considerably more expensive. It's why a ring of invisibility costs almost twice as much as a ring of transposition, despite the fact that the former imitates a 2nd level wizard spell and the latter imitates a 4th level wizard spell (and keep in mind that the latter is teleportation, which is a considerable potential Game-Breaker in its own right).

Yes, the usefulness does start to fade in group encounters and at higher levels, but the RP system is mostly to demonstrate just what kind of things have a leg up to getting to those higher levels in the first place - it's why it just suggests alternate encounter levels rather than just apply the old and poorly functioning level adjustment system. I think a class-and-level system will inherently be unable to produce a proper and robust point-buy racial builder by default, but I think it's a bit more robust than being given credit for here.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

So Divine Anthology is a solid entry in Pathfinder Player Companion. The "Diverse Obedience" feat is neat. It lets you get your Deific Obedience Boons two HD earlier and lets you pick which boons you want. In addition, there's a new Warpriest archetype that gais Deific Obedience as a bonus feat and gets the Sentinel boons, and a cleric archetype that also gets early boons. It's a nice way of making the boons more accessible for those who don't want to do the prestige classes.

I could see the argument that Divine Obedience is already too generous as-is, and should have an additional feat tax anyhow (depends on who you're obeying; Cayden Caliean being notoriously easy to obey). Diverse Obedience is somewhere between that and being a bit too broken, given where you could go with some mix-and-matching. I think it works pretty well, although I suspect there's some minmaxing to be done with the PRCs from Inner Sea Gods that would need curbing.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

True. But it could be a good way for, say, an Irori worshipper to take the first Sentinel boon and then later take the third Evangelist boon. Because Irori's third Evangelist boon is really neat.

Speaking of, they released the Obedience and Boons for Hastur:

Obedience: Spend an hour in absolute stillness, meditating in an area surrounded by rich furnishings and dressed in elegant and expensive clothing and jewelry. The total combined value of your clothing and the furnishings of the area within 30 feet of your meditation spot must be at least 1,000 gp per character level (magical items do not count in determining the overall value of your surroundings unless they are particularly ornate, in which case only the value over and above the item’s normal cost counts). Alternatively, you can perform this obedience in the presence of an active Yellow Sign. If you know them, you must silently recite lines from The King In Yellow as you meditate— otherwise, you can simply concentrate on nothingness. You gain a +4 profane bonus on all Perform checks.

Evangelist Boons:

1: Words of Disorder (Sp) lesser confusion 3/day, hideous laughter 2/day, or rage 1/day

2: Confusion Command (Su) As a swift action, you can issue a verbal command to a single creature within 30 feet that is currently suffering from a confusion effect or a similar effect. This allows you to choose how that creature is affected on its turn that round.

3: Yellow Sign (Sp) You gain the ability to cast Yellow Sign once per day as a spell-like ability.

(Note: Yellow Sign is a new spell introduced as a cleric/wizard/sorcerer/witch 9 or bard 6 spell)

Exalted Boons:

1: Decadent Grace (Sp) disguise self 3/day, eagle’s splendor 2/day, or glibness 1/day

2: No Mask! (Su) You gain the change shape (alter self, any humanoid of your size) ability, which is usable once per day. Transforming back to your true form is a free action, but as you do so, the unsettling effect of this change causes all creatures within 20 feet to become shaken for 1d4 rounds if they fail a Will saving throw (DC = 10 + your Wisdom modi er + 1/2 your Hit Dice). If you make an initiative check in the same round that you assume true form, you gain a +4 bonus on the initiative check.

3: Hedonist (Su) As long as you wear ne clothing and jewelry worth at least 500 gp per character level (magic items do not count in determining this value),yougainade ectionbonusto your Armor Class equal to your Charisma modifer. This ability doesn’t function if you wear armor or carry a shield (including items that grant armor or shield bonuses).

Sentinel Boons:

1: All Things Must End (Sp) doom 3/day, death knell 2/day, or bestow curse 1/day

2: Impossible Mind (Ex) You are immune to confusion and insanity effects, save those created by Hastur or worshipers and servants of Hastur who have more Hit Dice than you.

3: Nihilist (Ex) You are immune to death and petrification effects. In addition, once per day if you are targeted by a death or petrification effect of any level that targets you alone, you can choose to reflect that death effect back on its source as per spell turning.

Game : Fairy Tail style mercenary guilds. The party takes on missions for money picked off a bulletin board with campaigns based around those.

So I think I figured out a way to get the Lion Blade prestige class at level 6, rather than level 7.

The thing is in order to take the prestige class you need Inspire Competence (which the Bard gets at level 3) and Sneak Attack +2d6 (which the rogue gets at level 3) before you can take it. But, Dirty Tactics Toolbox has a feat ("Accomplished Sneak Attacker") that adds 1d6 to your sneak attacks. The prestige class also requires Skill Focus (Perform), Deceitful, and Improved Initiative, however, but if you're playing a Human or a Half-Elf the bonus feat could still get you the necessary feats by fifth level. Or you could dip a level into fighter or swashbuckler or something I guess...

But at any rate, it turns out that you can get the prestige class at level 6, and not at 7 like I had assumed!

So I decided to continue working on the races of my world. 32_Footsteps brought up humans being possibly underpowered compared to the other races. Well....

Human Traits

• Ability Score Adjustment: Human characters gain a +2 racial bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
• Size: Humans are Medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Base Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
• Fearless: Humans gain a +2 racial bonus on all saving throws against fear effects.
• Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
• Skilled: Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
• Getting to Know People: Diplomacy and Knowledge (Nobility) are always considered class skills for humans.
• Sociable: If a human makes an attempt to change a creature's attitude with a Diplomacy check and fail by 5 or more, they can try to influence the creature a second time even if 24 hours have not passed.
• Urbanite: Humans gain a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks made to gather information and Sense Motive checks made to get a hunch about a social situation.
• Languages: Humans begin play speaking Common. Humans with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).

Race Builder Stats
Type: Humanoid (Human) 0 RP
Size: Medium 0 RP
Base Speed: Normal 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers: Human Heritage 0 RP
Languages: Linguist 1 RP
Racial Traits Defense Racial Traits

• Fearless 1 RP

Feat and Skill Racial Traits

• Flexible Bonus Feat 4 RP
• Skill Training 1 RP
• Skilled 4 RP
• Sociable 1 RP
• Urbanite 1 RP

Total: 13 RP

Opinions? I'm still not sure what the ethnicity alternate traits should replace

edited 11th Oct '16 10:18:11 PM by BlackSunNocturne

I have to point out that humans are actually one of most powerful races already Sure elf wizard will be better than human wizard, but human can be used with any class. Plus bonus feat is rather stronk.

Yeah, outside specific instances of minmaxing, humans are pretty much the best choice in general because you can optimize their stats easier on top of the free feat. I'd never not roll one if I didn't want to play another race for roleplay purposes.

@2408, @2409 Well, keep in mind that BSN was giving extra freebies (including a free 1st level feat) to other races in his world, which is why I mentioned that humans had to be beefed up comparatively.

@2407 Well, one thing I'd consider is what could possibly be swapped with fearless. I don't think humans are that much bolder than other races. It makes sense that plenty could have the trait, but not everyone will.

As for what the various ethnic alternate traits should replace, I think it's pretty clear that Getting To Know People is the one that should be marked. Sure, you can make a good argument why plenty of humans (often seen as the diplomatic race in fantasy settings) get those as always-class, but there are going to be those that fall into other stereotypes. Urbanite might be what to swap for certain builds... like maybe members of a barbarian band would need to know negotiation and recognizing heraldry and the like, but not necessarily so great at getting info or inferring social clues. It'd be based on what each culture is like as to which should be swapped - a barbarian tribal structure would probably swap out urbanite, but a paranoid and secretive society might swap out Getting to Know People instead.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

It's not so much "freebies" as my Orc rewrite was the first one I did, and therefore that was the level I was going to have every race be around. And normally, yes, humans are perfectly fine. It's just that my world can be considered a bit more along the "heroic fantasy" lines, and the default human is on the weak side for that.

And 32, I feel that it would have been more helpful for your ideas if I posted the Human Ethnicity Alternate Racial Traits, so here they are:

• Arcadian^note They're Celts to be specific, but there's no good pothole for that: Replace the = racial trait with either: Heart of the Fields, Heart of the Wilderness or Heroic. Replace the = racial trait with either: Practiced Hunter or Unstoppable Magic.
• Hyen: Replace the = racial trait with either: Silver Tongued or Social Ties. Replace the = racial trait with either: Eye for Talent or Focused Study.
• Kwarazanite: Replace the = racial trait with either: Heart of the Sun, Institutional Memory, or Silver Tongued. Replace the = racial trait with either: Eye for Talent or Focused Study.
• Mthuunzi: Replace the = racial trait with either: Heart of the Sun, Heart of the Wilderness or Practiced Hunter. Replace the = racial trait with either: Awareness or Military Tradition.
• Norskarn: Replace the = racial trait with either: Heart of the Snow, Heart of the Sea, or Heart of the Fields. Replace the = racial trait with either: Heroic or Military Tradition.
• Ramosian^note Ramosians are basically everything European that's not Celtic or Scandinavian: Replace the = racial trait with either: Heart of the Streets, Industrious, Silver Tongued or Social Ties. Replace the = racial trait with either: Eye for Talent or Focused Study.
• Thalastran: Replace the = racial trait with either: Heart of the Sea or Heart of the Wilderness or Practiced Hunter. Replace the = racial trait with either: Awareness or Eye for Talent.
• Vashantian: Replace the = racial trait with either: Any of the “Heart of the” traits, or Wayfarer. Replace the = racial trait with either: Awareness or Unstoppable Magic.

However, these aren't automatically required to play one of those human ethnicities, just more flavor

edited 13th Oct '16 6:00:48 PM by BlackSunNocturne

Have cosmology swirling in my head. Lots of opposite gods that are more nebulous in their existence.

So you got the gods of good, light, creation, law and life, opposed respectively by evil, dark, destruction, chaos and death.

Good and Evil are always going at it. Because of belief, Chaos and Destruction will side with Evil a lot, at least more so than they may side with Good if they side with either at all, but are (mostly) neutral forces when left to their own devices. That Death refuses to side with Evil is what part of what makes it distinct as a thing from Destruction. Dark is far more unreliable and there've been periods where belief and metaphysical force made Death and Dark the same deity.

All this is mirrored with their opposites because of symmetry.

This might be a series of gods repeated in pantheons throughout time, their exact identities and relationships changing but having some repeating patterns.

(cross-posted from the General D&D thread)

So, while reading one of the new art books I picked up today, I found something out:

Turns out, that apparently the archetypal Our Monsters Are Weird D&D creature, the Owlbear, is not a D&D original monster. Winged bears have been used in European Heraldry for centuries, but are relatively obscure. However, the "owlbear" as in "owl + bear" has roots in Native American traditions and legends.

In the mythology of the Salish tribe the legend of the Katshituahkee tells the story of a young couple in love but from different tribes. A curse was cast upon them to keep them separated forever: the man was turned into a bear and the woman an owl so that they could never live together. It is believed they loved one another despite the curse, and their child became the owlursus.

Not sure if it is actually legitimate or not, because looking up "Katshituahkee" gave me no leads, but that's pretty frigging cool to think about, because how many major creatures based on Real Life mythology in D&D/Pathfinder are from Native American legend? Also, I love the artist's rendition of an owlbear waaaaaaaaaay more than the D&D/Pathfinder one. Mainly because his has more feathers, proto-wings on the forelimbs and a beak that has teeth inside the jaw. It combines all of the best(worst?) traits of bears and owls.

Side note: the other book I got is on Dragons and it has some.... interesting things. Specifically the groupings, because it lists cockatrices (crossbreed of an amphithere and owl here), coatyls, basilisks, kilin, and hydras as dragons. Which... to be honest makes more sense than what they're listed as in Pathfinder, especially regarding their origins.

edited 17th Oct '16 2:03:53 PM by BlackSunNocturne

I tried looking up some Salish legends, but wasn't able to find anything like that. Though, it's worth noting that there's a massive body of First Nations/Native American folklore that isn't on the internet for various reasons. This is the best source for Native information I've found short of actually finding someone from the relevant tribe to talk to.

But it's also worth noting that in a lot of cases the D and D/Pathfinder creatures are heavily modified from their original legend. For example, the Adlet in Pathfinder is described as a wolfman—the typical upright werewolf deal. In their origins in Greenland and the Canadian North, they're described as completely human from the waist up, but with a Wolf's legs. That's a relatively mild change but it just goes to show that a creature can be fairly loosely based on its source material. I have been able to find a Salish legend about a woman who falls in love with a stallion and turns into a horse; for all I know the Owlbear could be based on that.

Birthright: an original web novel about Dragons, the Burdens of Leadership, and Mangoes.

Mhmm, true. Kind of like the Tarrasque: In the legend it's a six-legged turtle-like creature. In D&D/Pathfinder its four-legged and more like a theropod dinosaur.

Edit: I did some more reading into the legend of St. Martha and the tarasque and I have to say, aside from the thing missing two legs and the fact that it can be tamed/calmed, the Tarrasque in D&D/Pathfinder is pretty spot-on. Well aside from the Tarrasque's alignment in Pathfinder, but that's easily changed when one uses it outside of Golarion.

edited 17th Oct '16 6:21:29 PM by BlackSunNocturne

Its also possible that its D&D original monster that coincidentally does have a real world mythology counterpart

Well, it doesn't exactly surprise me that there is a culture that had an owlbear before D&D came along. I mean, I'm fairly certain that they didn't come up with the landshark (sorry, "bulette") either. That said, the particular interpretations used in D&D and its successors are original to Gygax. I'd have to dig it up, but from what I understand, they came about because he picked up some really cheap and poorly made toys to function as miniatures for an early game, and they were misshapen blobs that he decided to turn into Mix-and-Match Critters.

Of course, even when the makers of the games did borrow from myth, they had no problems swapping things around. The tarrasque is hardly unique in that regard - Bahamut, Tiamat, the Simurgh, gorgons, and the catoblepas were all modified from their origins (Bahamut in particular is very heavily changed).

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Now by Gorgons do you mean the the Medusae or the Iron Bulls?

'cause, one of the first things I did for my setting is correct those names because holy shit, how did that never get fixed?

I totally mean the iron bulls. The idea of petrifying iron bulls that love to eat people is a pretty great monster idea, but yeah, I do not get why you'd want to name that after a trio of winged women with hair made of snakes (or maybe it was just Medusa that had the snake hair; depends on which source you read). I didn't know that the D&D version of gorgons made it into Pathfinder until a minute or two ago, when I thought to look. It really needs a rename, and it's not so iconic that you couldn't get away with a rename.

I guess the MST3K Mantra should probably apply here, as well as the typically related A Kind of One (which medusae also fall under). And in retrospect, some of those examples probably shouldn't be picked at too much (in-game Tiamat isn't that far from mythical Tiamat, and the major difference between mythical catoblepas and game catoblepas is size). I guess it doesn't matter so much if things don't line up directly with mythology, so long as it makes for a fun game. I mean, it's not like I'm complaining about the fact that King Minos (or Pasiphae, really) isn't responsible for all the minotaurs running around.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Especially when you stop and realize: D&D/Pathfinder Gorgons are the Khalkotauroi (and similar to the catoblepas). Then again, my fixing of the names is mainly because I'm working on making it so that Gorgons are a potential playable race Same thing with Lamia (as in the race of Snake People)

And with the Minotaurs, at least those are either mutants/cursed humans (iirc that's their origin in Golarion) or divinely-created (similar to the Greek myth). Now it's really funny, because a 3rd-party race of playable half-minotaurs are named after the actual Minotaur: Asterion

edited 18th Oct '16 11:38:33 AM by BlackSunNocturne

I think I remember seeing a D&D style "gorgon" in a woodcut of a medieval bestiary, although I may just be misremembering, seeing as I don't remember which site I found it on.

Granted, if I am remembering correctly, it would make sense. After all, the D&D lamia comes from The History of Four-Footed Beasts, and I can imagine Gygax looking through one of a bestiary and saying, "This thing looks cool, I putting it in my game... but wait, it has the same name as another monster I want to include. Oh well, I guess I'll just rename one of them!"

Okay, that's probably what I remember seeing.

edited 18th Oct '16 11:31:55 AM by MapleSamurai

How did Lamia even get remembered as snake tailed people in JRP Gs when base d&d lamias have lion body?

Probably because the original Lamia from Classical Mythology was half-woman half-snake, and D&D is less influential in Japan than it is in the West, so most Japanese creators went to the original myths for inspiration.

Thats not true though Snake lamia IS made up by D&D, original Lamia is unspecific "child eating monster" as in only specific thing about it is that it has large maw. The thing of combining serpents with Lamia is from that poets John Keets and from Lamia being used as alternate name for some Drakaina by one source, but neither of them specifically say lower half is serpent I think.

...Also, seriously, if I can find that out by quick googling, why doesn't everyone do that? xD

ALSO, note that JRPG depiction of Tiamat, Bahamut and Lamia come mostly from Final Fantasy that ripped off monsters from D&D. I don't think Japanese actually do much research when it comes to using names from mythology <_<

edited 19th Oct '16 12:34:37 AM by SpookyMask

I believe there's a club for that. It's called 90% of all fantasy writers, and they meet at the pub.