The Scrappy Cleanup

That doesn't say a whole lot about what people think of him.

Not familiar, but judging on what's written:

• I probably agree about Iok. Seem like a Hate Sink.
• Max is dubious. Getting the most hate isn't necessarily enough. And with points in the other direction, the example is very weak.
• Tracey seems more ignorable than hated.
• Tobias might qualify. There are some decent arguments, but a little fuzzy.
• Trip is at best a very weak example. Doesn't seem like a character who's meant to be liked either.
• If Trip was a Replacement Scrappy for Paul, then Paul is too popular to count, or Replacement Scrappy is misused. Then again, Creator's Pet is also misused, since that's a trope that follows The Scrappy, not one that inspires it.
• Cameron's entry is full of complaining. It needs to be rewritten regardless.
• Virgil is at most Americans Hate Tingle. And not Creator's Pet, as that trope is yet again misused.

On the Arrow entries. I'll only give input as far as the Malcolm Merlyn entry because I haven't seen Series 4 onwards yet.

• Thea: No, she seems to be a victim of a Vocal Minority more than anything else. Cut.
• Helena's entry doesn't make it clear whether the issue lies with a specific group of fans with a shoehorn of the rest of the fanbase to make it look like it fits. More info needed, making it a rewrite or cut entry. I have a feeling (based on my limited exposure to the fandom) that she's actually a keeper, but the write-up is terrible.
• Laurel: No, not an example. Like many characters, fans have parts of her storyline they like and don't like; that's not a Scrappy/Rescued example, that's just a common thing that happens in fandoms. Cut.
• Malcolm Merlyn is an example of a 'necessary villain' for the first three series'. He's more of an example of Hatesink gone wrong - a character who is designed to be hated that is instead an instant Draco in Leather Pants because the fandom thinks he's such a Magnificent Bastard. Cut.
• Felicity was very popular for the first three volumes. I haven't seen Series 4 onwards yet, but I do know the fandom's opinion of her has become much more criticial and dissatisfied. She seems more of a BBC at this point rather than a Scrappy.

edited 28th Jan '17 5:57:32 PM by Wyldchyld

Can I remove Brian Griffin from Family Guy as a Scrappy (and anything else that falls under that category) from both the YMMV.Family Guy and trope pages. He's a Base Breaker and has already been removed from TheScrappy.Western Animation.

Was there ever a final decision on Rose from Tales of Zestiria? I thought we had determined that she wasn't a good example of this trope and would better fit under Base-Breaking Character or Germans Love David Hasselhoff.

That was my overall impression, I believe.

She's still listed on the Tales series Scrappy page.

I agree with Merlyn's removal. He's never received the level of hatred that we need here.

Just added another entry to FE, and expanded some others.

Expanded

• The game's villains are one of the most criticized parts of the game due to having little backstory or personality, and playing Dark Is Evil, Black-and-White Morality, Always Chaotic Evil and Cliché Storm straight.
  • Grima is disliked for: being a blatant clone of Medeus, and Loptyr without any new to offer to the table, contradicting Medeus's claim of returning when the Binding Shield is broken, retconning the purpose of the Dragon's Altar/Binding Shield, being a Card-Carrying Villain who refers to himself as evil, and having no backstory at all. In Japan, Grima was so unpopular he lost in the "most impactful villains poll" to minor bosses like the Bandit twins, and Excellus.
  • Validar, and the Grimleal as a whole for being uninspired past clones of villains like Grima, and their goal of reviving Grima to kill all of humanity, starting with themselves, making zero sense from any perspective. That fact that the Grimleal ruin any grey in the past conflict of Ylisse waging war with them in past by being self admittedly evil to such a cartoonish degree that anyone would want to see them destroyed is a frequent criticism of the plot. Like Grima, Validar and Aversa lost to minor villains on the villain poll.

Added from Fates YMMV page. This seems supported by the topics on serenesforest.

• Peri is among the most disliked characters in the playable cast for her lack of any real likable traits that make up for her penchant for murdering innocent people, even coming close to killing other party members. Furthermore, her childish demeanour can be annoying and the other characters are bizarrely accepting of her immoral behavior. She's often compared negatively to Henry from the previous game, who, while sharing many of the same sociopathic traits, rarely ever tries to act on them, is usually talked out of his bloodlust quite easily, and is just generally a more pleasant person.

I'm also considering adding the character, The First Exalt, a background hero in Fire Emblem Awakening. The First Exalt is widely disliked for being a flat, and unoriginal Marth clone. Basically he does all the very specific things Marth does, even marrying an identical woman, yet is not him. Combined with the First Exalt not even getting a name, this makes him a Replacement Scrappy.

edited 31st Jan '17 4:16:29 PM by Monsund

I would take out the bits about the poll on "most impactful character." Those polls are not a good measure on how popular a villain is, only how much of an impression it made on an individual. Not scoring high on that poll =/= Scrappy.

Remember, a Scrappy has to be reviled by the majority of the fanbase. You need to prove that a majority of those people actually hate the characters. A "meh" does not count as "hate."

Honestly, I think those entries are written to be too complain-y and makes it seem like you have an axe to grind with the characters. That's not how The Scrappy entries should be written. The wiki is not for complaining.

On the First Exalt entry, I say don't add him. There's simply not enough about him to be a full fleshed out character, and as such he's simply a background character meant to add some history to the game. Regardless of whether or not you think it's a good history, I don't think there's enough to actually merit him being The Scrappy.

Finally, I want to point out you kind of ignored the bit about bringing up a character in this thread before adding a new one. I don't think you brought up Peri here before adding her to the page. Please don't ignore those notes at the top of the edit box.

edited 31st Jan '17 4:28:40 PM by dragonfire5000

RE: Dragonfire 5000

Grima, and Validar are viewed as lousy villains by the majority in the fanbase, particularly in Japan.

The poll is is a good measure. As someone liveblogging book commented its not good when your Big Bad, and Heavy are outdone by one-shot bosses with no plot importance.

Those points are listing exactly why those villains are unpopular, and frequently come up in discussions on them.

edited 31st Jan '17 4:30:35 PM by Monsund

The poll is saying which characters made the biggest impact on the individual. It is not a measure of how popular they are as a whole, just which ones left a big impression. And remember, not leaving a big impression =/= reviled.

The Scrappy is about characters that are not just unpopular, but reviled by a vast majority of the fanbase, and that entry doesn't do a good job showing that Grima or Validar are reviled by the vast majority of the fanbase. That poll itself just shows that a character like Mustafa made a big impact on players, but it doesn't show that Grima is hated by a vast majority of the fanbase.

And again, even if they are staying on the page, the entries need to be rewritten to be less complain-y, especially the bit about Validar. And for Grima's entry, I would say take out the bit about "contradicting Medeus's claim of returning" since that has nothing to do with Grima at all and kind of makes it seem like you're complaining that the game should've used a different villain instead.

That's the reason why we have this thread; to try and make sure that the characters being added are genuine Scrappies, hated by a vast majority of the fanbase and not just added by someone who wants to complain about a character.

edited 31st Jan '17 4:36:30 PM by dragonfire5000

For what it's worth, in my experience people finding a villain uninteresting doesn't always equate to flat-out hatred.

Another point worth noting. The Scrappy is about a character being hated, not just unpopular. You can be an unpopular character but not hated, after all.

RE: Dragonfire 5000

The poll was also popularity, and Mustafa, the victor was described as most loved in the results section. Being disliked by the fanbase, and not leaving an impression would count as this.

Already mentioned why Grima is hated.

• No backstory.
• Causes many continuity errors and retcons, making fans of Archanea hate him.
• Un-original clone of past villains.
• Replacement Scrappy for Medeus.
• Making the plot Black-and-White Morality by being a Card-Carrying Villain.
• Less popular then villains who aren't meant to be at all important.

The mentions on Validar, like the lists of Hans/Iago's entry, are all criticisms when discussing Awakening plot. People don't think he's a good villain.

Even now when Awakening's plot is discussed, Grima and Validar are always one of the primary criticisms. Almost every defense for Anankos says "at least he's not as boring as Grima."

edited 31st Jan '17 4:41:36 PM by Monsund

I have the artbook. The poll just asked "Which villain left the biggest impression?" Nothing indicating that those that scored low are actually reviled by the fanbase.

And again, your "expansion" of the entries are complain-y. The wiki is not for complaining, and the entry doesn't convey that a vast majority of the fanbase hate the villains for that reason. That's the key word: "Vast Majority." And since Fire Emblem is a game that originated in Japan, you also have to prove that the vast majority of the fans there actually hate him. Remember, unpopular =/= hated.

One last thing, I have to ask why you decided it was a good idea to add Peri without consulting this thread. It's explicitly stated in the edit box that characters need to be brought up here before being added. And no, "lots of people on Serenes Forest don't like here" is not an excuse. Sure, Peri scored #20 out of 35 in a Japanese popularity poll, but nothing about that indicates she was hated by a vast majority of Japanese fans.

edited 31st Jan '17 4:45:20 PM by dragonfire5000

RE: Dragonfire 5000

Impact is pretty much directly related to popularity. If a villain has less impact then simply a Filler Bandit, that speaks poorly of how the fanbase appreciates them.

Almost all critiques of Awakening's story relate to Grima, and Validar being bad villains. On separate Reddit, and gamefaqs topics they were voted Worst villains in the series.

How is it less complainy then Hans/Iago's entry? As mentioned those are all criticisms that come up with those characters.

I didn't see it at first because last time I edited the page the thread notice wasn't there.

edited 31st Jan '17 4:47:24 PM by Monsund

Honestly, this feels like importing complaining from the FE thread on the video games forum. Least popular and uninspired =/= Scrappy. (For the record, I don't like Peri either, and I have no opinion on Grima either way.)

Peri is debatable, I didn't make the entry, simply moved it from the Fates page.

Grima, and Validar are definitely hated as poor villains though.

Also this entry:

• Oliver is this in-universe, seen as a sleazy, disgusting, greedy fool even after his Heel–Face Turn. Ike even asks him to rejoin the enemy!

It probably needs a cut, Duke "Oliver" Tanas is Love to Hate, and fans appreciate him as an optional Joke Character.

edited 31st Jan '17 4:49:33 PM by Monsund

No, impact has nothing on whether or not the people voting actually hate the characters. For example, Grima left a bigger impression on me than Ashnard did, but that does not mean I hate Ashnard at all whatsoever.

Yeah, I think it's a good idea to go over the Oliver entry.

RE: dragonfire5000

If Gashilama(minor boss of no importance) left a bigger impression on you then Ashnard that would speak poorly of your view of Ashnard. Also keep in mind:

• Grima was immensely hyped in the game.
• Validar is fought the most out of any any antagonist in the series.

Yet with all that, the fandom loathes them, viewing them as poorly written characters that don't even tie well with Archanea.

Already mentioned Grima, and Validar are hated in addition to being unpopular. As mentioned, its very similar to Hans, and Iago. Here's just three topics criticizing them from one single google search. Link Link 2 Link 3

There's more support for them as hated then most characters on the page.

edited 31st Jan '17 5:04:17 PM by Monsund

You haven't actually proved that Grima and Validar are "hated," only how they're "unpopular." Again, unpopular =/= hated. There's no concrete evidence that they're actually hated, only you saying "They're hated, believe me!"

Again, just because someone like Schaeffer left a bigger impression on me than Ashnard (mostly for his "babies" line), it does not mean I dislike Ashnard at all. It just meant that one character was a bit more memorable, that's all.

Of those links you posted, none of them prove that they are hated by the vast majority of Japanese fans. That bit is important because:

• Americans Hate Tingle and The Scrappy are mutually exclusive.
• There are more Fire Emblem fans than just the people on Serenes Forest.

RE: Dragonfire 5000

If many fans saying they're the worst villains in the series, make no sense, and poorly mesh with the lore isn't hated, then what is?

If the majority of thoughts was Ashnard left no impression, and many hated him, yes he would count.

Serenesforest is the main forum for Fire Emblem fans. And the third link showed FE fans on gamefaqs also hate them.

A Reddit link where the most voted posts say Grima, and Validar are the worst characters in the series.

edited 31st Jan '17 5:11:34 PM by Monsund

Did you miss the bit about also proving that fans from Japan must be taken into account at a higher priority? Remember, Americans Hate Tingle and The Scrappy are mutually exclusive. And many fans =/= vast majority of fans. The characters need to be hated by a vast majority, otherwise they're a Base-Breaking Character at best, and putting them as The Scrappy becomes nothing more than complaining about a character.

For example, someone tried to add Severa as The Scrappy. She was taken out because she was incredibly popular in Japan, having more than enough fans to disqualify her as The Scrappy.

Unlike Severa who is a Basebreaker, Grima is not popular at all Japan. Vincent, and Victor, oneshot bosses are viewed as having a bigger impact then the hyped up Big Bad who caused the apocalypse.

Severa has many fans, Grima and Validar do not.

edited 31st Jan '17 5:14:22 PM by Monsund

Not having a big fanbase =/= hated. Again, prove that they're reviled by a vast majority of the fanbase in Japan. And remember:

• Just because they're not popular doesn't mean they're hated.
• Just because some people hate them doesn't mean a vast majority of the fanbase hates them; there's the possibility they may be a Base-Breaking Character instead of The Scrappy.