Real Life section maintenance (New Crowner 19 Feb 2024)

Since the wiki isn't in any way qualified to give professional opinions on the mental states of people, it seems to me that just about anything RL posted to a mental condition trope is pretty much guaranteed to be gossip, slander/libel, or speculation, none of which is welcome on TVT.

Mad Doctor and Depraved Dentist, related tropes, are already NRLEP.

(And on a related note, Room Full of Crazy could probably stand a spin through the crowner, for the same reason.)

I support Mad Mathematician being added

Vote away.

Mad Doctor though: Mengele anyone?

Obsessed, yes, especially with twins; crazy, who knows. He never had a decent psychiatric assessment, so it's hard to say if he was crazy or just conscienceless.

Bringing up someone who might fit a certain trope by appealing to popular conception of someone just tells me it is about opinions and not facts.

Also, even from the space history provides, I'm not comfortable judging the mental state of another. Hell, there are a number of people who were called "crazy" who were just different, and even geniuses. I don't think it's our place to judge.

I'm with Duck's assessment on that one.

Well, from the definition:

• This is the guy that uses his knowledge of the workings of the body (or of the mind) to do evil. Check
• ...abuses the authority he has from his doctorate...Ya think?
• ...and practices freakish and horrific experiments, proving that Science Is Bad. Yeah. Says nothing about a Msd Doctor being insane.

Counterpoint to your first check: We do not apply terms like "good" and "evil" to Real Life, especially "evil".

And yes, that even applies to Nazis, including Hitler.

You also took that text out of context, ignoring the fact that the very next sentence starts with the phrase "for all his insanity".

edited 23rd Jun '15 1:29:14 PM by SolipSchism

The Allied leaders were horrified by Mengele's experiments -but they realized how useful the information was, more than could ever be found even working on cadavers.

For instance, vivisection is disgusting regardless of who or what it's done on -but Mengele and his staff took extensive notes as they observed how things work when the victim is still alive. It's disgusting as hell, but it was useful information, hitting a huge grey area in science -horrible methods, useful information.

The guy had no compassion for his victims and was overly obsessed with twins, but not all of his experiments were done for torture or shit'n'giggles.

That method of research can not be condoned or approved of. But it was valid science from a technical standpoint, if you can stomach setting your conscience aside for a moment.

Excuse me, I feel nauseous.

Mengele is a bad example. His experiments were for the most part just done out of his own curiosity and sadism and rather useless scientifically. A better example of "useful if cruel Nazi science" is Sigmund Rascher, whose experiments were crucial to knowing how the human body reacts to extreme temperatures.

Not to argue against anything you said, precisely, but the fact is that even if Mengele didn't take any notes and performed all of his experiments for the sole purpose of masturbating over the victims, it still wouldn't be appropriate to call him evil, insane or otherwise.

Our policy is to not assign morality value judgments like "good" and 'evil" to real life. Ever. At all. Discussing the finer points really just clouds the issue when the bottom line is no.

edited 23rd Jun '15 2:26:43 PM by SolipSchism

Americans Hate Tingle, which is NRLEP already, has "Technology", "Food", and "Other" folders that look like Real Life examples. Would it be safe to cut them?

Oh for flying piggies' sake...

The Tech and Food items will probably be discussed, but those Other items can all go.

The first in Other is about what I think sounds like some kind of mascots. The rest I have no trouble cutting.

A lot of the stuff is about stuff that isn't the most popular or just not popular. The trope is about hating.

Companies are real life organisations, and don't belong.

Cutting it down a bit (feel free to cut more or re-add if I missed something).

Edit: That was more than I expected. Didn't see anything that actually fit the trope and didn't run afoul NRLEP. Except the first I mentioned.

edited 25th Jun '15 4:02:49 AM by AnotherDuck

And someone should probably PM the editors who added those examples.

White Anglo-Saxon Protestant and Jewish and Nerdy have Real Life sections that are just lists of people with no context, which seems to be a recurring problem with similar tropes. Also, would Butch Lesbian, Manly Gay, Camp Straight, and Camp Gay fall under Sexuality, Stereotyping, and/or Gossip? Butch Lesbian, Camp Gay, and Manly Gay also have quite a few people listed without context. Similar tropes Lipstick Lesbian and Bi The Way are already NRLEP.

^ I don't know of any reason any of those should have an RL section, especially the ones regarding sexuality. WASP and JaN are nothing but Zero Context Examples, so whether that gets voted NRLEP or not the examples still have to go... which they will after I send this post.

That said, however, we may want to hold off on those for the next crowner, which is currently at 11 items, and wait for the last active issue (more on which below) to be resolved before adding them to a new crowner.

Also, regarding the addition of Fangs Are Evil (which should have been mentioned in a post, BTW, to let others know it was needing a vote), I don't really think it's worth making NRLEP, but can't say I'm bothered enough by it to the entry.

I more or less agree with you; no strong feelings, but I'm defaulting to an vote just because it is, still, now and forever, a morality trope.

Calling Mad Mathematician: Added 21st Jun '15 at 06:08:01 PM, 18:1 (19)

—-

Also going to add White Anglo-Saxon Protestant and Jewish and Nerdy to the current crowner, bringing the total crowner entry count up to 13, and saving the sexuality stuff (Butch Lesbian, Camp Gay, Manly Gay, and Camp Straight) for the next crowner after currently active entries are resolved.

edited 29th Jun '15 8:54:52 AM by Nohbody

Regarding Fangs Are Evil: It seems the Real Life section is not so much about calling people evil as about calling animals evil (or not evil), which is rather natural since people normally don't have fangs.

Attributing evilness to animals may not be as morally bad as doing it to people (the animals are, after all, not so likely to read the wiki and be offended) but it is in a way more objectively wrong, since morality generally isn't considered applicable to animals acting according to their nature.

And even if the Real Life section is kept, I think it needs a cleanup, since most of the entries seem to be, essentially, "animals have fangs and may be considered evil or not evil by some people".

edited 30th Jun '15 3:33:37 AM by GnomeTitan

GT, already zapped the generic examples in Fangs... which wound up nuking the whole RL folder even if it isn't currently NRLEP.

Right now it's at 3:1 (12), but I'll wait until this afternoon to make sure it's stable before calling it.

edited 30th Jun '15 4:11:24 AM by Nohbody

Eh, I don't even think those mental gymnastics are necessary; I stand by my eternal argument that there is no such thing as objective morality in real life, and since subjective morality does not belong on objective pages, we have no business applying any morality tropes to anything in real life, ever, regardless of whether humans are involved.

Thus, it makes no more or less sense to attribute morality to animals than it would to attribute morality to Hitler or Caligula or Fighteer. They are neither good nor evil, they simply are, just like everything else in the universe.

It's not that I find it offensive or insulting to call things evil in Real Life, it simply doesn't make sense.

edited 30th Jun '15 9:15:02 AM by SolipSchism

"there is no such thing as objective morality in real life"
Hitler.

edited 30th Jun '15 9:31:48 AM by ACW