Misused: Instant Death Bullet

I don't see that being a Mook should preclude one from being an example of Instant Death Bullet. Dying quickly is not a necessary factor in being a Mook. Being defeated quickly and easily is. Mooks can just as easily be extraordinarily difficult to kill if the story requires it, if the protagonist is a Technical Pacifist for example. Take Rurouni Kenshin, where in one of the earliest episodes a nameless unimportant antagonist gets hit in the chin with the hilt of a sword so hard his head crashes through the ceiling, and survives.

Averting Instant Death Bullet for Mooks doesn't make them stop being Mooks; they could simply get hit and stagger and fall and still be writhing on the ground twenty minutes later, or go on to be almost dead guys, etc. Instant Death Bullet is not a mandatory part of the Mook package, but it's an extremely common element, and tropable. It's what the trope was originally written up for, but the opposing tendency for important characters to not die easily when shot has filled up the page with aversions, when named characters dying suddenly when shot isn't a regular trend in fiction.

edited 15th Jun '12 5:49:23 PM by Desertopa

Dying easily for a Mook or Red Shirt instantly or in a few shots is simply not notable. That is the entire purpose is to die or be defeated easily in any capacity. If they go down in one shot they are still just as much a mook. We would still trope them under mook. There is nothing uniquely tropable about mooks dieing instantly other then them being mooks.

Counting mooks or redshirts for this would be pointless they are covered by their primary tropes and the plethora of sub-types.

When a mook doesn't die instantly. Oh look Heavily Armored Mook, Elite Mook, Mecha-Mook, etc.

Mooks dying instantly is covered by them simply by being mooks. It is ONE read this ONE of the very common things that is a trait of Mooks and Red Shirts alike. Oh look that generic soldier went down in one shot. They are not secondary characters, Protagnist or Antgonist, member of the Five-Man Band or The Dragon guess what. We trope that under Mook or Red Shirt as that is what they do good guys or bad guys who exist to die.

If it does something else we have other tropes that cover it. There is absolutely nothing notable at all about a mook going down in a single shot or having it averted. All of that is already covered by being mooks or a special type of mook. Or better covered already by a different trope like you listed for Almost Dead Guy.

Last I checked we never had a solid definition for this other then the original and current write up. The last solution was incredibly lazy and only led to more problems. We should have taken the time to give it a proper write up and a thorough clean up of the page. Never happened. While we can say Exactly What It Says on the Tin til we are blue in the face we still need a write up that actually defines the trope and doesn't argue with itself through out the write up.

edited 15th Jun '12 6:19:21 PM by TuefelHundenIV

It might not be worth listing examples where mooks are subject to Instant Death Bullet, but that doesn't meant hat that's not what the trope mostly is.

Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy applies only to mooks, and applies to nearly all mooks wielding projectile weapons, but we don't simply lump it in as being part of the "mook" package.

edited 15th Jun '12 8:48:47 PM by Desertopa

I'm inclined to think of Technical Pacifist as a specific subset, the instant knock out blow (I forget the trope itself, perhaps Tap on the Head?). For most mooks, it's simply a form of "being removed from plot relevance" at that point. So, gunning down the mooks doesn't imply anything actually interesting that's different from other mook activities unless it's something like the Mook Horror Show.

Except Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy Trope was pulled from a specific trait of being a mook and applies to the red shirts almost equally. Main characters very rarely have that problem. Even rank amateurs have Improbable Aiming Skills. When they don't or can't use a gun 9 times out of 10 they can do something else. Instantly dying or dying in one or two shots is part and parcel of being a mook or red shirt in every medium.

Movies, Live Action, Comics, Literature, Webcomics, Video Games, etc. You see a nameless face go down in a single hit and they are not any part of the cast of the story you would list them as a mook or red shirt and move along. Their dying instantly would not be seperate or special occurence unless the story or game mechanics went out of it's way to make it one. Even then the chances are pretty good it falls under a different trope or they are not your bog standard mook. The more it takes to bring down someone the more likely they are not a Mook or are a special type of Mook.

The common occurence is Mooks and Red Shirts go down in a stiff breeze often at the first hit, strike, shot, stab w/e. Heroes, Villains, and the host of other characters have a strong tendency to be the exact opposite often so you can have a story.

Listing Mooks or Redshirts under any instant death trope is redundant and unecessary and leads to Trope Decay. There dying instantly or easily is covered by them being Mooks and Red Shirts period. That is their entire purpose in any given story in any given medium.

edited 16th Jun '12 6:29:25 AM by TuefelHundenIV

You just said that Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy applies both to Mooks and Redshirts, and almost never to main characters, but that's exactly the situation we have with Instant Death Bullet. They're extremely common tropes, but that's what the tropes are. They're not People Sit On Chairs, they're specific deviations of fiction from real life, but they're used almost any time they're applicable. We do have tropes that are used so often that we only list aversions, the trouble is that almost all the "aversions" listed have been important characters not dying suddenly when shot, which is no more a violation of the persistent trend in fiction than main characters being able to hit the things they fire at is.

They are not just deviations from real life. They are specific elements of story telling. Any trope that is over whelmed with aversions is a broken trope. Tropes are not supposed to be more aversions then actual examples. We have more then enough straight examples as written in the sand box to make it a trope. Needs a bit more clean up. Also the current write up demonstrates little and is filled with inaccuracies.

Two people have put actual effort into makign a decent write up and even a sample of cleaned up tropes with items in question left intact for others to look at. I have more then adequately shown my arguement over and over. If I have to i will start dragging in video clips to make my point.

You don't like the write up in the sand box show me a better one. The current write up for the trope simply can not stay. It fails the basic standards of the wiki for a trope and trope write up. I hear opposition I see no work from anyone else. Only people arguing cause someone wants to change it.

Instant Death Bullet is not overwhelmed with aversions, if you treat it as something which applies primarily to mooks and redshirts. Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy would seem overwhelmed with aversions, if we treated it as something that was something that applied only to important characters.

If you subtract all the aversions that are applied to named characters, you'll find there are very few left on the page. If we made it like Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy, and actually used the examples dealing with mooks, there would be plenty to fill the page.

90+ Aversions which is the bulk of the examples. That is overwhelmed. Go to edit the page. Use search type in the word Avert and tell me how many hits you get. I get over 100 nearly every single one is a example. They are not even proper aversions.

There are plenty excluding mooks and red shirts. I did not say just main characters. I also mention secondary characters, supporting, characters, main cast, basically anyone who isn't a mook or a redshirt.

Listing mooks or red shirsts is pointless they die instantly from anything and everything that heroes use to attack to them all the time often insantly. Or in the case of the more family friendly media are "knocked out" easily or instantly.

A early sample of tropes left after shows roughlyt 50 examples with 14 in question. Even if all 14 of the entries in question are cut that leaves 30+ tropes including proper aversions and a potentially legit real life example that is not arguement/natter. The basic leg work has already been done. Again none of you have shown me anything that proves otherwise.

edited 16th Jun '12 3:47:23 PM by TuefelHundenIV

It's only overwhelmed because it's listing named characters as aversions. This is like listing "aversions" of Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy where named characters manage to hit things with projectile weapons. There's no reason to treat most of the listed "aversions" on the page as proper aversions, because there isn't a consistent pattern in fiction whereby we should expect Instant Death Bullet to apply to plot significant characters. It's like listing aversions of Made of Iron for mooks. We're misusing the trope by treating it as if it applies to plot significant characters the way it does for Mooks and Redshirts, and thereby assigning significance to aversions which do not use Mooks or Redshirts.

From the Home Page

Can a writer reasonably rely on the audience expecting that if a Mook is hit by a bullet, they'll drop like a log and be dead almost instantly? Yes, absolutely. Can a writer rely on the audience expecting or being unsurprised by this happening if a plot important character is shot? Generally speaking, no, they cannot.

If we're not going to use examples with Mooks and Redshirts, and simply chalk it up as being part of what makes a Mook or Redshirt, we might as well not have Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy or Mook Chivalry, since those are just as intrinsic to the disposable character types and we're not going to get anywhere attempting to fill them with examples from anything else.

edited 16th Jun '12 5:15:47 PM by Desertopa

Ubiquitous tropes are still tropes. The fact that the foot soldiers are killed instantly by a bullet is one trope, Instant Death Bullet. The fact that foot soldiers are killed instantly by anything is a second trope, Mook.

No it is one trope Mooks. I am not budging an inch on this. I have gone over it again and again. Mooks are the guys who down easily in nearly every single story. Or if they are good guy versions the red shirts. You can tell they are mooks because they are mown down like wheat before a scythe by the characters or in the case of games player. A mook getting blasted in one shot is not unique or separate at all from being a mook period.

Mooks=Cannon Fodder often die on the first hit or to petty injuries.

Heroes/Villains/Other related characters= Sustain injuries that would otherwise kill or incapacitate anyone not a hero/villain/related.

The sandbox write up works with a real separate pattern that has nothing to do with mooks and redshirts being mooks or redshirts. Adding them only serves to clutter up the page with useless examples that fit onto mook or redshirt. It deals with the tendency of writers to give heroes plot armor.

There is absolutely nothing notable or separate from being a mook or a redshirt at all worth noting by any reasonable definition of instant death bullet for a mook or redshirt dying in one shot. There is no point in listing for example the mooks from the game contra under instant death bullet or the random generic mooks from nearly every action movie ever made.

Unless a story goes out of its way to make this something noticeably separate from being a mook or a redshirt it doesn't belong on this page it belongs with mooks and redshirts or more likely on a different trope page.

You want to make an example of mook going down in one hit list it on the mook or redshirt page where it belongs.

Part of the whole problem is a very badly written trope that does little to define itself in any meaningful manner. Adding mooks because it gives more examples is not a good excuse to add mooks. We have sufficient examples to support the sandbox version without mook examples at all.

None of you have yet to show me how a mook going down in a single hit is worth nothing anywhere else then on the page for mooks. It is what they are for.

edited 16th Jun '12 6:17:09 PM by TuefelHundenIV

If the fact that they die easily means we can just account for all cases of mooks dying instantly to one shot as being part of the Mook trope, then by the same token we should be able to lump in all cases of Plot Armor for the main character as being part of The Protagonist.

You might not be willing to budge on this, but you're not the only person involved in this dispute, and I think precedent weighs heavily against you here. I suggest we bring in a moderator for resolution, because this doesn't seem to be going anywhere between us.

Protagonist and plot armor go hand in hand. The mook and redshirt page already cover them going down. I think precedent is on my side. Adding mooks only waters down the trope and leads to its decay. They do not belong on this page at all.

edited 16th Jun '12 6:25:08 PM by TuefelHundenIV

So if a nameless goon is killed by poison lipstick, it's not Kiss of Death, because other kinds of poison would have killed him too?

"There would be too many examples" seems like the only good reason to exclude mooks.

So why is Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy full of mook examples?

I'm going to holler for a mod. This back and forth isn't accomplishing anything.

edited 16th Jun '12 6:31:33 PM by Desertopa

That is a specific plot device that would work on anyone not just mooks. Heroes or bad guys using whatever their weapons of choice will mow down redshirts or mooks. However Antagonist and Protagonist and other characters are the exception. Mowing down a 10 mooks with single shots is only worth nothing on the mooks page and depending on the scene a few other pages.

If you want a trope to represent mooks dying instantly and add that as mook and redshirt trait that would be a far better solution then cramming mook examples onto other similar pages.

Idea: Split this page into:

• The current page, except examples for:
• A trope (Dies Like Mooks), where mooks always die by Instant Death Bullet?

As it happens, I've been here long enough that I can attest from personal recollection that instant death of mooks by bullets is the intention behind the trope as it was put through the YKTTW. One of the examples listed by the author of the original writeup was the soldiers in the movie adaptation of The Golden Compass, who not only fall immediately when shot, their daemons disappear, making it explicit that they are actually dying instantly rather than being incapacitated.

Desertopa: I want to see some proof of that. From the state of the write up in its current and last state I am not seeing that all. We made it a much bigger mess by being lazy and adding the easier to list subversion line instead of cleaning it up last time it was in TRS.

If any of you can draw me up a better working option I would seriously consider going with it. So far no one seems to even have taken a casual shot at it. Make a line in the sand box above or below the current write up and write it out.

A split would work pretty well.

edited 16th Jun '12 6:59:47 PM by TuefelHundenIV

I don't know how I could prove that; the example is listed on the page if you check on the wayback machine right after it was created, but I've got no idea how I could access the old YKTTW at this point.

Of course, you can also see from that page that the problem with common enough for only aversions to be notable" set in almost instantly.

I'd be willing to write up the page to make it clear that it does apply primarily to mooks and redshirts, and make a start of an example section that's in accord with that, but there's not much point in my doing that if you're still insisting that you won't stand for turning the page into that; so far you're the only one who's put in the work of creating a sandbox writeup, but you're also insisting that you won't budge an inch on letting the page actually apply to mooks; it would be pointless for me to submit a writeup for your approval when our basic disagreement is unresolved.

edited 16th Jun '12 7:19:35 PM by Desertopa

My 2nd idea is a trope where it says: all Mooks are subject to these traits,except when a trait is adverted. Also, should the page have examples where a mook lives for 10 seconds after he's shot, and where anyone else gets the trope?

edited 16th Jun '12 7:25:30 PM by spacemarine50

Start cutting every aversion entry you start getting pretty much characters with names and roles even if they are C-list expendables instead.

Way back earliest the page seems to exist is Dec 14 2007. Looking at the examples they start out with aversions right off the bat.Example has a few different parts but still a bit of a mess. Were we even requiring the use of YKTTW back then?

ok to humuor you Desertopa and give the adding mooks a more fair look let me drum up a example sheet with mook examples intact for comparison.

Current YKTTW doesn't go back very far at all.

edited 16th Jun '12 7:30:51 PM by TuefelHundenIV

There seem to be two basic causes of instant-death bullets: 1. Mooks and redshirts. This is a consequence of the law of conservation of detail. They aren't important to the story, so it isn't goign to spend a lot of time on there deaths. This is pretty much a universal trope, so listing aversion only would make sense here. 2. Significant characters. This is usually to shock the audience that major characters are just as mortal as your common goon. It isn't super-rare, but is definitely not the general rule. I'd say no aversions on this or we'll end up listing every time a character dies in a work and just classifying it as straight or an aversion, depending on the circumstances.

So just specify there are two kinds of examples and aversions only for mooks (often goes with What Measure is a Mook) and no aversions for major characters.

It was already required to YKTTW new tropes as of the time I joined, sometime earlier in 2007, although not always well enforced. My very first forum post was actually an apology when I realized I hadn't gone through the proper procedure in creating my first trope, which also had almost almost no straight examples, but resisted all my subsequent attempts to get it cutlisted.