Needs Help: Tsurime Eyes

I notice that the pages for Tsurime and Tareme eyes specify that they are east-Asian only. What about this trope disqualifies western examples? I argued in the discussion page that the trope either has no western examples, and needs no disclaimer, or has western examples that are arbitrarily excluded. It looks to me like the latter (especially since there are western examples on the page(s), disregarding the disclaimer), but I'd be enlightened to hear about why the exclusion is there.

(It's worth noting that I removed the disclaimers a while back, but re-added after incidentally noticing that they were originally added/re-added by Fast Eddie. Seemed like an easy choice, but I'd rather not go reverting Eddie's changes without any fanfare.)

[Links to Tsurime Eyes and Tareme Eyes for easy access.]

edited 18th Apr '12 10:08:31 AM by flocculentCamelidae

You can't link to two pages simultaneously. But you can fix the tag with the green widget up there easily.

About the tropes, I think that there are Japanese-specific tropes and they have Japanese names to discourage Trope Decay as appropriate English names that don't invite decay often don't exist.

edited 18th Apr '12 10:02:31 AM by SeptimusHeap

Well this is an anime art style trope... And that other thread you made brought up a good point. Are there any western examples out there of these? None of the Animesque works I know of even use these eye styles let alone with their associated personalities and such. (right now looking at the page there isn't much, and the MLP ones are misuse I think I know for sure the Tsurime one is misuse her eyes are nothing like that trope.) Maybe Anime inspired Web Comics maybe.

Also these are preexisting terms for these two Anime Eyes tropes. The last 3 redirect farming threads failed miserably.

edited 18th Apr '12 10:13:38 AM by Raso

There are a few animesque webcomics that use this, and Avatar might have, but I'm not sure. Either way, those are exceptions—normally it doesn't show up in Western works at all. I mean, there's a reason you can find Avatar on any anime site.

If there are few examples, that means that the examples section would be sparse, not that it should be barred from existence.

Given the description of the tropes both of the MLP examples seem legit. I don't follow the series, so I'm not clear on their character development since the first episode, but they appear to fit the personality traits pretty cleanly.

So then, it seems the major issue is that people are liable to misuse the trope, should we allow non-Asian examples. That's a legitimate problem, but blocking entire categories of examples because there will most likely be some mistakes doesn't seem like a better alternative. I did a bit of research, and I see that there have been discussions regarding the splitting of East-Asian/Nonasian tropes into different sections, regardless of relevance. Is this still an active issue, and does it hinder the integration of these particular tropes (which apparently have no non-Asian counterpart)?

If it would help at all, I would gladly curate those sections myself to watch out for decay and misuse. Researching characters and looking through examples is something I'm able to do in the name of keeping the examples section clean.

For me, the biggest outstanding issue is that Fast Eddie added those disclaimers himself, and I have no idea whether any conclusion here has the authority to revoke that without his direct intervention. I'm not entirely familiar with the power structure around here, since this is the first time I've done something apparently controversial enough to take to the forums.

edited 19th Apr '12 8:49:38 AM by flocculentCamelidae

This is definitely an art style trope, and those tend to be some of the fastest tropes ganked by countries. I think Teen Titans used them as part of their very Animesque style.

We ended up baring them because allowing them caused excessive trope decay. After removing the entire Western sections for the fifth time we just banned them. We didn't get any valid Western examples when it was open to them. I see no reason it needs them now. It just causes trope decay.

And no, Teen Titans didn't use them. They used anime inspired eyes, but they didn't use these two tropes and associated personality types. They just did big eyes simplified in a manner common in anime, but the shapes themselves didn't come from there.

edited 18th Apr '12 7:43:15 PM by shimaspawn

Nope Teen Titans did not use them at all,

Rarity does not have Tsurime her eyes still have round elements her eyes are closer to the standard Shojo eyes with the large prissy eyelash points. three Tsurime◊ the eyes are quadrilateral they can have curves to them but go to 4 points, (its common lately to not have curves.)

We could be missing is the supertrope Large Anime Eyes (that were first used in early Shojo manga then migrated to nearly everywhere else except some Seinen in the 90s Anime / Moe boom.) these two tropes are specific shapes / personality subtropes to that one of many. Even then some works use it for the girls only with the older style used for guys and some use both sexes. (the old style is used almost exclusively in those western works that copy anime.)

edited 19th Apr '12 5:17:14 PM by Raso

...we're missing Giant Anime Eyes? That's the most mocked/parodied part of the anime art style! Of course, it's based on Disney, but still.

Someone want to take that to YKTTW? I'd do it, but I'm horrible at keeping those moving.

It seems to be like this trope could use a bit of redefinition. There does seem to be a definite trend of more arrogant, prideful, or willful characters with more angular eyes, in Japanese works and otherwise. If nothing else, it seems like that much warrants a place for non-Japanese examples of some sort.

How Did We Miss This One indeed. I'd do it, but I'd like to make sure this thread is resolved before I go gallivanting off on a new quest.

The definition you gave does not fit the exact shape of the Rarity example given, that much is true. This may mean for for the narrowness of the definition than it does for the validity of the example. It seems like the trope can be more loosely defined as the association between eye angle/sharpness, and more mentally aggressive characterization. This expands the trope, doesn't exclude western examples, and gives the reader a somewhat more comprehensive understanding of the relation of character design to character personality from a more generalized standpoint.

I think that comprehensiveness if an important indication of success in a page, as well as the wiki as a whole, and excluding examples based on land mass is directly counterproductive to that. Some oversight might be needed, and the description might need to be refined. Maybe we should keep a disclaimer, just not the current "no non-Japanese" disclaimer. Again, I will personally volunteer to oversee the accuracy and integrity of the trope, if it means we can get another chance at removing exceptions based on geography.

edit FROM THE FUTURE:

ykttw thing: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=p6v7mo7ijfibdri6rhi9pejx

edited 19th Jun '12 10:13:07 PM by Kastorr

"Mocked" might be the reason it was never created....

How would you lay that out anyway? I can think of a few different shapes

• Tareme,
• Tsurime,
• Various sizes of the irises (which have gotten a lot bigger from the artstyle of the 90s) some are really cat like (tall but thin.)
• switching between Tsurime and Tareme due to Heel–Face Turn, just the mood of the person, Multiple personalities, the way to tell apart twins, sisters or Evil Counterpart, just an Art Shift or just a Transformation Sequence will do it [1]◊[2]◊.
• then there are the ones with different points like basically hexagons with detail and such [3]◊.
• then there is the guys which tend to be quite different.
• They are always shiny except for Dull Eyes of Unhappiness where the life just leaves them.

I googled images and that is what came up was nothing like Tsurime or really anything close to any of the tropes... the eye style of the series is quite unique in of itself [4]◊ and she is more of a teardrop shape example◊.... the closest I could put it is a few anime animal's eyes [5]◊.

edited 20th Apr '12 7:39:33 AM by Raso

That image in your post has an obvious example of Tareme Eyes, and seemingly an obvious examples of Tsurime Eyes as well. On further examination, though, the "Tsurime" doesn't fit the guidelines as you defined them in your earlier post. The outside of the eyes are not particularly higher or lower than the inside, and the angle is visually enforced primarily by the eyelashes. In fact, you could probably describe them as teardrop-shaped. Of course, this was all an obvious segue into my point, which isn't that the image there is not Tsurime, but that the definition is probably a bit too narrow. There seem to be markedly similar effects on apparent characterization to the clearly correct page image for Tsurime Eyes.

At the very least, I think we need a trope that DOES work for western works, even if this page is excluded for technical reasons. Something like Eyelashes Of Arrogance or the like.

The eyelashes have nothing to do with this trope at all honestly. And Rarity's don't have anything to do with arrogance, so she's be out of that trope too. Hers are supposed to be a sign that she's got beauty on the brain, but that's not the same as arrogance.

It seems counterproductive for me to argue the exact difference between willful pride and arrogance (a relatively minor distinction) for a character in a series I don't actually follow. The distinction between eyelash and actual eyeball is important, but is not the singularly defining factor in how it shapes the appearance (and therefore the apparent personality) of the character.

My argument is that the underlying idea (that eye angle and sharpness correlate to force of will and pride in character design) deserves some representation in the non-Japanese works in which it does exist in some form.

edited 19th Apr '12 7:18:28 PM by Kastorr

It doesn't have anywhere near the same connotation in Japanese works. It's a sign of beauty in western works. Not arrogance. It shows up without a hint of arrogant if the character is supposed to be lovely. It's more common in Western works if the character is sweet and innocent as well. That's the trope Rarity falls under.

Eyelashes are also completely disconnected from arrogance in Eastern works, but instead show up when the character is evil (or at frequently least not nice), female, and lovely. Those three traits in conjunction.

In no works is there actually a tie between arrogance and eye lashes. The two of them sometimes show up in conjunction with one another, but they aren't actually a trope.

edited 19th Apr '12 7:29:05 PM by shimaspawn

I'm gonna disagree with that. Maybe it's not quite "arrogance", but big eyelashes are also used to show that a character is self-centered and looks down on everyone else, like the My Life As A Teenage Robot example.

The only character I remember having eyelashes at all on that show was fashion obsessed. That would be back into beauty again. Now, characters that have beauty as their hat are often shallow, but that has nothing to do with their eyelashes.

I'm not saying eyelashes=arrogance. I'm not saying that eyelashes=tsurime. I'm definitely not saying arrogance=tsurime (there's a lot of words on the page for Tsurime Eyes other than "arrogance").

The fact that a character has eyelashes in entirely tangential to my point, the point being that pointier eyes correlate closely to strong will, pride, and sometimes arrogance. Sometimes, eyelashes change the apparent shape of the eyes, especially since eyelashes, prominent or otherwise, tend to define the upper border of female eyes. But again, my proposal isn't about eyelashes, it's about the apparent shape of the eyes as related to characterization. Specifically, how apparent eye pointiness and angle correlate to will, pride, and occasional arrogance. Eyelashes are not, and never were, the point, though they are certainly related to the apparent shape of the eyes.

edited 20th Apr '12 9:40:53 AM by flocculentCamelidae

Ok this has really gone off into something I am absolutely lost on.

These tropes are just about Anime Eyes that are a window to the soul

Tsurime is more than just a point, the eyes are quadrilateral shaped as in 4 distinct points (maybe with some curve to the lines, and the bottom two points will stay level or outside actually goes lower than the inner point .) it's just the way the eyes are drawn, personalities with them are usually Tsundere, Tall, Dark and Bishōjo, Tomboys, The Ojou and such. If they shift into this with their eyes becoming smaller it is comparable to Clint Squint.

Tareme is Moe Eyes which tells that these characters are suppose to be nice, friendly, their shape can vary from a flat line at the bottom of the eye and just a big circle on the rest of it, or it is a bit like Tsurime but the top of the eye curves downward on the outside of the eye is lower than the top point in the inside of the eye.

These two are very distinctive and notable when a work

• decides to switch between them,
• split them between twins, sisters or Evil Counterpart
• fit the personality stereotypes and use both in the series, (Aka follow the rules!)
• give one person one style and every one else the other (IE A Channel everyone is Tsurime but the super friendly The Ditz, K On where only Mio is Tsurime)
• or just use one style exclusively like Hidamari Sketch everyone has these but the single guy in the work... The work is Iyashikei (healing anime) so everyone is nice.

These styles have been heavily documented and are even covered in my "how to draw an anime character" book. (I have yet to see a mainstream western work actually use it in the correct form.)

I see no point to this thread at all really becides Missing Super Trope Syndrome which I would YKTTW If I knew how to lay it out and such.

edited 20th Apr '12 10:28:31 AM by Raso

I agree with most of that. I do think Tsurime and Tareme are less meaningful when they appear on their own. If both appear, you see a distinct difference between them, where said difference also shows a difference in character. If it's just one, it's more of an art choice than a character trait.

(Minor note: I think the page images are among the best on the site, specifically because they relate to each other. I do think image captions could highlight their personalities, though.)

edited 20th Apr '12 10:16:06 AM by Feather7603

(In case it wasn't clear to everybody here, I am also Kastorr.)

I agree. These are some of the most demonstrative and relevant page images on the wiki.

Missing Supertrope Syndrome appears to be in full effect. Didn't know the word for that one. If we can get an action to implement those supertrope(s), I would move to close the thread.

Take the supertrope to YKTTW.

You know, about the definition of Tsurime Eyes, I don't think the main point is that it has an upwards angle. Rather, it's more important that the outer upper point is pointy, like traditional cat eyes or stereotypical asian eyes. Tareme Eyes, on the other hand, have a very rounded outer upper part instead. Reason being is angular versus soft facial features, and their implication on the character.

And on the tangent I mentioned before, I'd like to change the captions of the images. Not sure if should be here or in image picking, but since we already have a thread open, and it's about text rather than images, I think we can have it here. Anyway, I'd like something along the lines of, "The Tsundere sister," and "The Moe sister," or something equally descriptive concerning their character. Though those quotes contrasts to what Konata says about moe...

Thank you, feather, that is exactly what I was trying to say. Nice to know I wasn't totally pulling it out of my ass.

I don't think that what you said would go well, verbatim, but a caption that compared the two directly would be good.

I have no idea how to format a YKTTW submission, so if someone a bit more familiar could assist, that would be great.

edited 20th Apr '12 4:46:29 PM by Kastorr

I would say "the smart, savvy and harsh Tsundere sister" "The kind, Ditzy Dojikko sister".