Inspired by this thread
, I've noticed that this wiki doesn't have a dedicated cleanup thread for negativity.
As we all know, Complaining About Shows You Don't Like, Creator Bashing and other negativity isn't desired on the wiki, except in a few selected areas like reviews and several Darth Wiki pages (and even then, with limitations). And yet, it's one of the most common sins wiki contributors can make.
So, if you find a page, TLP or discussion whose content seems like a straight-up insult or any other bitching - including complainy soapboxing -, you might ask here for help with removing said content.
The sandbox for this project is located at Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining.
Edited by MacronNotes on Apr 27th 2022 at 5:36:47 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That also runs into Natter territory and is a Wall of Text. I really can't read it.
Does the following, found on CurbStompBattle.Literature, sound like complaining or is it just me? I've been going through the series's related links and copying examples which hadn't been crosswicked yet over to the work page for the past days and honestly can't tell anymore.
- Malazan Book of the Fallen: The series is inordinately fond of this trope, especially with regards to resident badasses Quick Ben and Karsa Orlong. It tends to lead to many anticlimaxes, when battles are foreshadowed for most of a book, then are finished within a couple of pages.
edited 18th Jan '18 4:24:59 AM by Derkhan
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
That is at least a Zero Context Example since it doesn't explain anything about the fight other than it lasting only a few pages. Who is the fight against? What does the winner do to end it so quickly?
The Real Life section of The Unpronounceable is a huge breeding ground of complaining about orthographies and phonologies you don't like and explanations of such systems that needs serious electrocution. There are a few instances of Zero-Context Example too.
Several of them can be trimmed and transferred to No Pronunciation Guide.
- This is common with Polish names, because they often have lots of consonants and Z's next to S's.
- Polish spelling is very phonetic, so once you learn the basic rules it's easy. Still, it's hard to look at placenames like Szczecin ("Shche-Cheen") or Bydgoszcz ("Bid-Goshch") without your eyes watering.
- The "sz" and "cz" are pronounced very similarly to "sh" and "ch" respectively. However, there are also "ś" and "ć", which are similar but not the same as "sz" and "cz".note Non-native speakers tend to have some difficulty telling them apart.
- Croatian sees your strange sounds and spelling (č,ć,š,đ and dž), and raises a propensity for consonant cluster-fucks, having such fluent tongue twisters as: Cvrči, cvrči cvrčak na čvoru crne smrče. = A cricket chirps on the knot of a black Juniper.
- Črljenak Kaštelanski is a Croatian red wine grape. For apparent reasons, most people rather refer to it on its German name, Zinfandel. (It is pronounced not unlike CHERL-Yennack.)
- Croatian is actually pretty phonetic once you learn that č is pronounced as "ch" like "Charlie",ć as "ts",š like "sh" and dž like "j". The punctuation defines how a particular letter is pronounced. Unfortunately, the distinct lack of wovels does not make things easier.
- Czech: Chrt pln skvrn vtrhl skrz trs chrp v čtvrť Krč. It's an entire phrase that has literally no vowels. Before breathalyzers became common, local cops used to use your ability to pronounce it to determine how drunk you are. (It means "A greyhound full of stains burst through a cluster of cornflowers in the district of Krč").
- Some Czech language teachers use a similar phrase: Strč prst skrz krk to determine you ability to use the language (It means "Stick your finger through your throat").
- It helps to know that those languages treat some consonants as vowels. Just as English has "sometimes y", several Slavic languages allow "r" as a vowel. The trick is often not the pronounciation per se, but fluent pronounciation of letter groups that require much tongue movement.
- Many Indian languages, (like Hindi, Tamil and Malayalam) have numerous different sounds and letters which don't even exist in English. Consequently, English heavily lacks the vocabulary required to accurately represent these languages, making them sound bizarre to native English speakers. (Yup, now you know why you can't pronounce Indian Names.)
- DeSagana Diop. It's pronounced "sə-gah-nə jahp". Yes, that's right... the first two letters are both silent.
- (An extremely bullet-overdosed city name section)
- Similarly, Gloucester is pronounced Glah-stir. The best way to spot a telemarketer is by how badly they mangle the city name, often pronouncing it "glau-cester" or "glowchester".
- Massachusetts also has Scituate. Have fun trying to figure out it's pronounced "SIT-chu-it" or "SIT-yu-it."
- Leominster. For the record, the O is silent.
- Leicester. The "ice" is silent.
- Utah has the city of Tooele, pronounced Too-ill-ah. To make matters more confusing, it is also home to Tule Valley, (not a city, just a valley) where Tule is pronounced the way you would think Tooele would be.
- In California, there are cities with names like "Tuolumne", "Yreka" and "Suisun". ("Too-awl-uhm-nee", "why-reek-uh" and "suh-SOON", respectively.)
- Michigan has some fun ones as well, such as the Brooklyn to Ann Arbor's Manhattan, Ypsilanti ("ihp-suh-LAN-tee"). People not familiar with the town tend to treat the initial Y as both a consonant and a vowel, and say "yip-suh-LAN-tee". It doesn't help that it's often called simply "Ypsi" (pronounced "ip-see").
- Think you know how Pompeii is pronounced after all those documentaries about Mount Vesuvius? Wrong. Pompeii, Michigan, is pronounced POM-pee-eye.
- Mackinac is the ultimate test of native versus non-native - whether you pronounce the final C as a K or an S, you're wrong. It's pronounced as a W.
- In the UK, there are the villages of Wymondham and Garbaldisham in Norfolk (pronounced Win-dam and Garb-ee-sham).
- The Greater Houston area has a street named Kuykendahl. Unless you're a local, you're very unlike to know it's actually pronounced as "Kirk end all" and the first syllable does not rhyme with guy or boy or any other word that remotely resembles it in spelling.
- Unless you're from New Orleans, you aren't going to pronounce Tchoupitoulas.
- St. Louis, Missouri, has some names that could be seen as unpronounceable. Try-hards new to the St. Louis area are often caught pronouncing even the city’s name with French style. However, the street “Gravois,” for example, would not be pronounced it would in French, but as “Gra-voy.” Other regions (like “Des Peres”) are pronounced “correctly” in French, but most are not. This doesn't even begin to explain the older St. Louis accent, very prevalent on the Hill ("bat tree" instead of battery, or "warsh" instead of wash).
- In Missouri, forget everything you know about "foreign" pronunciations, and you're pretty likely to be at least close to saying it the way locals do. Examples are Vichy ("VIT-chee") and Versailles ("ver-SAILS"). And Nevada (MO) is "neh-VAY-dah".
- The Hmong language, due to a weird transliteration system, has a lot of these, including the name of the language itself in Hmong, "Hmoob", pronounced "mung". Read this thread: there's someone on there named "Nkauj Xwb".
- Tibetan, in the Wylie transliteration, is pretty bad about this too: there is a Tibetan Buddhist sect named "Bka' brgyud", pronounced "Kagyu". This is a common problem in transcription, namely whether to follow the written or spoken language. Wylie preferred an accurate representation of Tibetan as written, there's another common transcription based on the usual pronunciation. See also former Thai Prime Minister ABHISIT Vejjajiva — second name pronounced "Whettacheewa". (This didn't keep his friends at Eton and Oxford from calling him "Veggie.")
- Sḵwx̱wú7mesh, a group of indigenous people from southwestern British Columbia. Also mercifully called Squamish, which according to Wikipedia is probably the closest to the pronunciation (which is roughly sk-HU-mesh, with the h being pronounced like a Spanish J).
- St'a7mes, a village/reserve of the indigenous Sḵwx̱wú7mesh. Also known as Stawamus.
- And Xwemelch'stn (Homulchesan), and...you know what, just go to Wikipedia's article on Squamish Nation and get the full list, because there are a bunch of these names in Squamish and a number of other tribes in the area with equally overpunctuaed names.
- St'a7mes
- Nuxálk (a Native American language up in the Pacific Northwest) has the word xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓. Means "he had in his possession a bunchberry plant". Not only are there no vowels, there's nothing that could even function as a vowel. And yet, people can still say it.
- There's a Hungarian reporter named Vujity Tvrtko. That's much harder to pronounce than Balogh Szilárd which is his birth name. A good deal of Hungarian names in general at least look unpronouncable, until you learn the rules (it's much like Polish and Finnish in that regard.)
- The Armenian actor Mher Mkrtchyan. It's pronounced phonetically, that being, "m-k-r-t-ch-yan", basically stumble through the letters, rolling the "r".
- Note however that a lot of the consonant clusters in Armenian are broken up by schwas, though there are rules on where to pronounce it.
- There's a reason our Aztec Mythology page is full of footnotes with pronunciation guides — Mexican gods tend to have names like "Chalchiuhtlicue" or "Huitzilopochtli." And if there's an "X" in an Aztec name, it's actually pronounced similar to "sh." The /ʃ/ sound (the "sh" sound) did exist in Old Spanish and was written as "x". It is still written that way in other languages spoken in the Iberian peninsula - namely in Portuguese, Galician, Basque and Catalan. There was a shift in the Spanish sibilants that made /ʃ/ disappear and a later spelling reform so that the letter "x" represents a variety of other sounds in modern Spanish. So, in all, the name of Mexico was pronounced something like "me-sheeh-coh" in 16th century Spanish, "me-khi-coh" in modern Spanish... and "mek-sih-co" in English. Quite strange come to think of it.
- While Aristophanes invented his crazy words, Modern Greeks are legally required to become the unpronounceable ones abroad thanks to the official transliteration scheme that pretends to have a 1:1 correspondence with the spelling in the Greek alphabet (it fails even that). A recent example is Greek basketballer Giannis Antetokounmpo entering NBA. His name is actually pronounced Yannis Adetokunbo, not "Jeeanis An-teh-toe-koun-um-poe or whatever the insane spelling suggests (Greek alphabet spells the "y" sound as "gi", the "b" sound as "mp", the "d" sound as "nt", the hard "g" sound as "gg", "gk" or "ng" and so forth). Repatriated Greeks and naturalised citizens also aren't very happy for the new romanised spelling their name, especially because it raises suspicions during passport checks (eg a Greek American "Jennifer Stephanopoulos" becoming "Tzenifer Stefanopoulou", or the case of this Mr Stolz and his daughter)
- As mentioned in the Final Fantasy XII entry foe the Viera, Scandinavian languages use a J for a Y sound. Many Scandinavian names have "BJ" in them, like Björn Borg (the tennis player) and Björk (the singer.) People who don't know about the "J = Y" sound frequently stumble over the pronounciation, frequently adding letters and sounds that aren't there.
- Good luck pronouncing the name of film director Jeannot Szwarc correctly on your first try. It's "zhan-OH SHWARK".
- There are at least two consonant clusters in Italian that most foreigners just can't get without training : GL followed by E or I (a l sound using the mid-section of the tongue instead of the tip) and GN, that sounds like spanish ñ. This is the reason Italians roll their eyes when a foreigner tries saying "San Gimignano" or "spaghetti aglio e olio"...
- Recess co-creator Joe Ansolabehere— his surname is not as unpronounceable as it looks. It's pronounced his name "Anso-leh-bare".
- Hawaiian is this to some people, especially with the glottal stops common in the language (even the name "Hawaii" has been anglicized; it's more properly "Hawai'i"). Hawaiian has the opposite problem from Polish: the profusion of vowels, often strings of them separated only by apostrophes, make the language look confusing to English speakers. Two fish names in particular give people a lot of trouble, although they're pretty easy once you know the rules: "humuhumunukunukuapua'a" (reef triggerfish) and the even longer "lauwiliwilinukunuku'oi'oi" (longnose butterflyfish).
- (Legit example of other people mangling another person's name)
- Proving, along with the aforementioned Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, that Persian is second only to Polish in its ability to turn the human tongue into a tangled ball of rubber.
- Finnish and Brythonic personal and place names are often used as a Running Gag variant of this trope. Surprisingly, the case with Finnish is more an exaggeration of how it might look, but its pronunciation is actually one of the clearest. Aside from the vowels Ö (close to the I in "girl,") and Y (like the EE in "beet," but with rounded lips) — Ä is just like the A in "bad"— the only real troubles are J being like an English Y and speaking in the right rhythm. Every single word is stressed on the first syllable and every double-letter cluster is pronounced just like a single letter, only for twice as long.
- Funnily enough, both the Finnish pronunciation and grammar is so close enough to Japanese that many Japanese consider Finnish to be "ridiculously easy language to learn". Likewise, Finns may become fluent in Japanese very quickly.
- Tonal Languages are this to most westerners who grew up with languages where vowel pronunciation does not influence lexical meaning. Ever wondered why Asian people talk like they're being an overly melodramatic Shakespearian actor who cannot decide whether to be loud or quiet, and with weird vowel pronunciation? That is why. Westerners trying to pick up tonal languages find tone the hardest thing to get right. That's why the locals never seem to comprehend what you are saying.
- (Another legit example)
- "Ya-at-teh-ehn-ma-kee" (A as in "bad")
- The name of Newark, NJ, is often bashed together into one syllable by natives. It's not quite "Nork", but it's significantly closer to that than "New-Ark". (That one's in Delaware.)
- Native here. It's pronounced like the words New and work, but the w is short and shared to both syllables, no pause.
- Even Irish people struggle to pronounce Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh ("blaw-nid nee khuffigh")
- The Gaelic languages in general are a nightmare to sound out until you know something about the phonetics (which are weird and vaguely resemble Russian), and Scots Gaelic has a lot of unnecessary (i.e. no longer pronounced) letters that Irish got rid of in spelling reforms. Even then, the consonants aren't too bad, but the vowels can be... inscrutable (the only time a vowel is unambiguously itself is when it has an accent on it). Overall, Scots and Irish Gaelic spellings are a barely-comprehensible mishmosh of historical and phonetic spellings... and then you have Manx Gaelic, whose spelling is mercifully based on English phonetics... from four centuries ago. Old Irish spelling resembles modern spelling simplified, but is mercifully phonetic and nowhere near as tangled as its descendants. Still, it's best taken with a bottl o da fookin' wiskie.
- For the record, it's approximately AY-a-fyaht-la-yeuh-kuht.
- Some drugs and medicines have chemical names that are ridiculously long and hard to pronounce. Of course, the formal names are for the benefit of doctors and technicians who need to know exactly what they're handling, but they can be quite unwieldy for laypeople.
- They're actually quite easy to pronounce, since they're composed of units that are always pronounced the same (allowing for regional variations, such as American ETH-il vs. British EE-thil for "ethyl", and you sometimes have to understand a bit of chemistry to know when an o is just an o and when it's pronounced "ortho"). The trick is learning the "units" so you recognize where the breaks occur: aminomethyl is "amino methyl", not "ami nom ethyl".
- Of course, since scientists and doctors are human too, long, ugly formal names are often shortened in the interests of sanity. For instance, the common organic buffer 4-(2-hydroxyethyl)-1-piperazineethanesulfonic acid is generally just called "HEPES."
- Spend just a few minutes at a zoo's exhibit of native Mongolian wild horses, and you'll hear every conceivable pronunciation of "Przewalski". Except, perhaps, the correct one ("sher-wall-ski").
- Note that "sher-wall-ski" is only "correct" in English. A Pole (or other Slavic-speaker) would be able to handle that consonant cluster, and possibly recognize the "w" for the "v" that it is.
- Can you pronounce Wojciechowski correctly? Commonly incorrectly pronounced "woj a house key". (Pronounced correctly: "Voytsiehkhovski", more or less).
- Although it pales in comparison to some of the above examples, German has a few sounds that native English speakers have difficulty pronouncing: ä, ö, ü, and the two "ch" sounds (hard as in Bach and soft as in ich). The easiest of these is ä. Pronounce it like eh and you're good to go. The others are rounded front vowels, which don't exist in English, but pronounce ö by placing the tongue in position for "ay" and rounding the lips, and likewise ü is the rounded version of "ee". As for the "ch" sounds, hard "ch" is like "k" but relaxed so that you can breathe through it; soft "ch" is like the "hy" sound in "human". On the other hand, the seemingly unpronounceable symbol ß is really just a double s, pronounced like the s in "snake". (Oh, and normal "s" before certain consonants is pronounced "sh".) It also helps to know French: the German R is the same as the French R, ö is the same as French eu, and ü is the same as French u.
- A lot of native speakers do not make the soft ch sound as you describe. I've heard ich pronounced most frequently as eesh. However, there are people who insist that it's pronounced like ik. It's probably a dialect and accent thing.
- It's most certainly a “dialect thing”: in Cologne (and the surrounding areas) the local realization of the “ich-Laut” is very similar to but not exactly the same as German sch or English sh. However your mistake may be forgiven, as even real linguists can't agree on the exact nature of that sound. Concerning your second example, you probably have been either to Northern Germany, specifically anywhere north of the Uerdingen line where the local German dialects have -ik in some places where Standard German has -ich or you've been to the South where many people pronounce words ending in -ig with -ik (because of “Auslautverhärtung”, i.e. at the end of words German does not distinguish between soft and hard consonants) though Standard German prescribes that one should pronounce it as -ich.
- It's most certainly a “dialect thing”: in Cologne (and the surrounding areas) the local realization of the “ich-Laut” is very similar to but not exactly the same as German sch or English sh. However your mistake may be forgiven, as even real linguists can't agree on the exact nature of that sound. Concerning your second example, you probably have been either to Northern Germany, specifically anywhere north of the Uerdingen line
- A lot of native speakers do not make the soft ch sound as you describe. I've heard ich pronounced most frequently as eesh. However, there are people who insist that it's pronounced like ik. It's probably a dialect and accent thing.
- "Masayori" is not a particularly difficult name for many English-speakers and some Western-language speakers to pronounce, as far as Asian names go. However, you should tell that to Masi Oka's old elementary school teacher, who started calling him "Messy Masi" for his atrocious handwriting and he decided it was easier to go by Masi than make everyone say his entire name. There's a brief period where he's credited under his full name in movies, though now things have swung in the opposite direction and even his native Japan tends to refer to him as Masi - despite the fact that Japan has trouble with the "si" syllable and tends to pronounce it as "she" instead of "see". The poor man just can't win!
- For the record, Masayori is pretty easier to pronounce in many Romance languages like Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc, since those languages are very phonetic just like Japanese is.
- The Canadian Chief of Defense Staff 2008-2012 was General Walter Natynczyk.
- Slightly easier on the tongue is another Icelandic volcanic glacier, and until recently a more famous one, Snæfellsjökull.
- The !Kung people of the Kalahari Desert have a tongue-click sound in their language, represented by the "!". The protagonist of The Gods Must Be Crazy is a !Kung.
- N!xau, who starred in the classic South African flick The Gods Must Be Crazy. The exclamation mark represents a click sound.
- Every single Khoisan language has many different click sounds, some produced with the teeth, some with the lips, others with the sides of the mouth. Zulu and Xhosa have "imported" clicks from the Khoisan languages, despite not being related to them.
- N!xau
- Kyrgyzstan.
edited 21st Jan '18 11:13:34 AM by Albert3105
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
As someone said on the talk page, The Unpronounceable should be restricted to In-Universe examples.
Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
Would real life examples of unpronounceability being acknowledged be permitted as in-universe?
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
e.g.
- The Csaba Csere example
- The Eyjafjallajökull example
- The Dag Hammarskjöld example
- "The host in a radio program about etymology: "This word goes back to a Proto-Indo-European root which cannot be written with our alphabet, and I also cannot pronounce it."
- The "Chef Boyardee" example
- In 1989 Dundee United FC signed a player from what was then Yugoslavia, called Miodrag Krivokapić. He was booked in his very first match, and the TV coverage showed a close-up of an incredulous referee saying "What???" after asking him for his name, then turning to his linesman and exhaling slowly. It is not recorded whether the referee considered letting him off with a verbal warning instead...
- The shibboleth section
- The Vic Mignogna example
edited 21st Jan '18 3:26:47 PM by Albert3105
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
I don't know if they should be included or not.
Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
If the examples are acknowledged in a work, that's fine, otherwise cut them.
edited 21st Jan '18 8:00:45 PM by GastonRabbit
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Zapped many, many of the examples and commented a warning in. I think sticking an In-Universe Examples Only notice on the page will clarify things more too.
edited 21st Jan '18 8:58:17 PM by Albert3105
I’m seeing A LOT of commented out examples on the Real Life section of Never Live it Down for moments no more than 25 years old, and some them (Roy Moore, Steve Bannon) only happened last month. I think the rule on commented out examples needs to be much stricter. Hot topics like those are pretty much the reason why that section has so much time for moments to consider.
Why does that page even have a real life section? That's begging for trouble.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
If Never Live It Down isn't already a No Real Life Examples, Please! trope, it should be, especially if it's attracting examples like that.
edited 22nd Jan '18 3:49:20 AM by GastonRabbit
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
That makes sense considering Never Live it Down is divisive enough without real life examples, especially with the political environment today. I’m all for it.
EDIT: I added it to the crowner: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800&page=284
edited 22nd Jan '18 4:04:45 PM by KoopaKid17
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
The Unpronounceable should be In-Universe Examples Only or No Real Life Examples, Please!. I'll bring it up in the NRLEP thread.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Since it was decided to keep real-life examples for Never Live It Down, should the commented-out examples be removed on the grounds that it's still adding examples less than 25 years old, even if they aren't visible? Part of why I'm asking is because I'm pretty sure I've never seen comment markup (mis)used this way before, since it's usually used to hide ZCEs or add notes related to site policies.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
"In distress", my ass.
Yes, remove them. If nothing else, adding them now is troper speculation. Hidden or not, that's not what TVT is for.
All your safe space are belong to Trump
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Done. Referenced this thread in the edit summary.
See ya later.
I’m aware that tropers have more liberty to complain on the Dethroning Moment of Suck, but I have seen some (thankfully infrequent) cases of tropers insulting other potential viewers of the works. This includes questioning why a show gets more praise than they feel they deserve, or potholing to Fan Dumb (which should probably be avoided even on these pages). I’m wondering if there should be restrictions against such practice, since this is complaining about the fans rather than the show, which is needlessly rude even for Darth Wiki.
edited 3rd Feb '18 3:20:53 PM by ArgonianLorekeeper
You can find me here now.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I was under the impression that non-Darth Wiki Flame Bait tropes aren't supposed to have out-of-universe examples anywhere on the wiki, and troping fans (or haters, for that matter) isn't OK either way.
edited 4th Feb '18 6:07:22 AM by GastonRabbit
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Here's an ATT thread about some examples there that could probably be zapped. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?type=att&status=all&sort=activity&f=Film
CommonKnowledge.Video Games is complainy, nattery, and some examples are things I've never seen any misconceptions about. (The trope in general is, really, as it seems like a Did Not Do The Research thing.)
edited 5th Feb '18 7:19:42 PM by lalalei2001
The Protomen enhanced my life.
There's no ATT thread linked.
The link isn't working, so here's some of what needs to go.
""*** Many have also cited the fact that Lucas can't write dialogues, citing the complaints made by many actors, such as Harrison Ford and others deprecating it as corny. This again ignores the context of the production of A New Hope. What actors were deprecating was not merely the dialogue but the very nature of the project itself. The reason Lucas had so much trouble on A New Hope is that the very concept of the film, i.e. a B-Movie Serial Genre Throwback but done with higher production values was considered absurd, as did most of Lucas' collaborators and producers, and what upset many of them was that Lucas was playing the genre straight rather than submitting it to a Mel Brooks' style parody. Lucas' Homage to Flash Gordon serials was seen with bemused contempt because those films were highly disreputable and Lucas was the only one who envisioned that the Serial could be revived via Reconstruction and higher production values. And this by itself is more than enough among auteurists to make Lucas the main creator of Star Warsnote . It's also important to note that the most famous lines of dialogue in the entire Star Wars media, which most would argue is the least corniest moment in the entire series, was written entirely by Lucas alone. "
"*** Likewise, some Some have even claimed that Lucas can't direct films based on remarks that Lucas gave only vague remarks and didn't discuss motivations with actors on set or so on. This is likewise standard among all film-makers, for instance, Alfred Hitchcock during production never discussed character motivations, and would prefer to shoot the breeze with his stars in-between takes rather than discuss the scenes. The usual stock response for directors is that issues of motivations and characterization happen in script and rehearsals but not during the shooting of the film, since it's an expensive process racing against a ticking clock, and that stopping a production so that an actor can get in the mood has created more nightmares than you can shake a fist atnote . Furthermore, Lucas made a name for himself directing THX 1138 and American Graffiti, meaning he had the best profile of all directors to work on Star Wars until the Disney Era."
"** The Disney Star Wars films have also gotten criticism. Rogue One was a Contested Sequel because it more or less provided an Obvious Rule Patch on the "flaw in the Death Star" plot of the first film, while also re-contextualizing important scenes in A New Hope (i.e. Darth Vader's first meeting with Leia) in an unintentionally absurd light. It's a fact the producers behind the series openly admit that they don't really have a full long-term plan for a single story to tell, with actors admitting that they don't entirely plan to reveal all mysteries for the characters so as to maintain and increase Fanfic Fuel, Fanfic Fuel. Even Mark Hamill, the only actor to believe in Lucas' vision from the very beginning, and one of the few cast members intimate with George Lucas admitted that he struggled with The Last Jedi over Rian Johnson's vision of the character which he saw as entirely different from his. As such a number of viewers believe that Star Wars is no longer a real saga or mythos, but merely a set of wheels to spin until the well entirely dries."
""Many of the edits to the original trilogy are so infamously derided by the Vocal Minority who can actually notice it that many other viewers, especially newcomers who didn't see the trilogy in the original run, don't really see what the fuss is all about.note Some speculate that one reason the edits are so reviled is due to the Internet giving people who care about these changes a larger platform to make their views heard, and by George Lucas' anti-fan attitude and alleged mockery towards such fans note causing unnecessary escalation and poor synergy between which didn't of course affect the creator and fanbase. Some box-office take of either the prequels, the home video releases of the Special Editions, or the sequels. Other fans, even old-school fans have even cooled down about Star Wars fans, feel the issue; they note that issue is moot with Disney owning Star Wars, as Lucas cannot make any more edits to the originals (thus quelling fears of future tampering), note , and some of them admit Lucas' changes to be minor:"
""** One of the models for the entire Star-Wars saga is the fall of The Roman Republic, as well as the fall of the Weimar Republic which happened in real-history out of a series of polarizations, outbreak of political violence, decay of institutions, voter-intimidation and economic crises (in both, but especially in Germany). The prequels could have ideally given us a truly great epic that makes its setting as dense as the Hollywood Epic Movie at its best made the Ancient World, but instead, Lucas makes it entirely about how one Big Bad was secretly responsible for every bad thing that happens. In addition to making for simplistic storytelling, it more or less makes the Jedi and other political figures who would eventually form the Resistance into a bunch of chumps on the run, and the entire ideology of the Resistance in the original trilogy, and the Disney movies, hollow, since the system they are fighting to restore and uphold fell to a single cunning operator, rather than long-term real issues that audiences can buy that the heroes would tackle. Likewise, the romance between a Jedi Knight and the Queen of Naboo ends up becoming a teen-YA melodrama rather than an epoch-transforming romance on the order of Caesar-Cleopatra and Cleopatra-Antony."
"** A number of observers see Anakin's fall into the Sith in the prequels as an example of how individuals are brainwashed and gas-lighted into cults by charismatic leaders who shrewdly and carefully manipulate, mould, and force them into following a way of life entirely different from their set of beliefs and ideas. "
The Protomen enhanced my life.