It's OlderThanTheyThink, really: Marth Debuted In Smash Bros

Guess The Trope. Who is Marth, exactly, and which of the three games in the Smash Bros series are we talking about? (turns out it's the second).

Okay, so the page is actually about how people think a character is from a certain game or show, when actually the character is older. It strikes me that's precisely what the trope Older Than They Think (and its subpages) is for. And indeed, several of the examples on that page match.

Aside from that, the name "Marth Debuted in "Smash Bros."" is Fan Myopia, and Marth is neither the first nor the most prominent example (e.g. Mario is both an older and a more well-known example).

I think there's too much overlap here, a merge would be a good idea. Failing that, I'd suggest a rename to something more general and accurate.

Actually, this trope is specifically about characters who's debut in a country is actually a cameo or a crossover. Marth, for example, was a character in a game in Japan, which was how he got into Super Smash Brothers. However, the game that Marth was in didn't debut in the west until after the Super Smash Brothers game came out. Therefore, American's first glimpse of Marth was in the Super Smash Bros game.

It's a very specific sub trope of Older than You Think, in which audiences will have a good reason to believe that a character is new since the older works featuring the character never made it to their markets.

It's distincly enough of a subtrope, and operates under such strong principles (market, internationalization) that a merge is out of order. I don't really see problems with the name either, because having two references in one helps clear out what the trope is not about, but it needs a searchable redirect. I'd propose something on the concept of "debut in the wrong order".

Delayed Debut? Out Of Order Debut? Insequential Import?

I don't see why a rename is called for. It's a fairly healthy looking trope. Adding redirects, maybe, but I don't see grounds for a rename yet.

I think the name is fine as it is.

The name's fine, but some redirects won't hurt.

Out of Country Cameo?

Perhaps Debut Displacement if you want an alliterative alternative.

That is a very good one.

Debut Displacement is very good. (And I didn't even notice it was alliterative; it's simply the best choice of words.)

Perhaps the fact that the title is opaque and mysterious and utterly confusing to anyone who isn't a fan of the source media for the character? Perhaps because the title really is a case of Fan Myopia in that it assumes that everyone on TV tropes knows what the hell a "Marth" is, or even cares? Maybe?

"Healthy looking tropes" get bad titles all the time. This is just one of them.

I'll third Debut Displacement.

Added Debut Displacement as a redirect, as well as Marth Debuted In Super Smash Brothers just in case.

The first redirect seems to solve the issue, it is a pretty good one.

I too think a rename is called for. Debut Displacement is an excellent title. Marth Debuted in "Smash Bros." is not a good title.

I agree.

So, are we doing anything?

Let's get a rename crowner.

Let's do a Wick Check, shall we?

Correct:

Correctly referring to a character who makes his or her international debut in a cameo role:

1. Atelier Series
2. Chicken Little
3. Combattler V
4. Crisis Core
5. Cross Edge and Cross Edge
6. Custom Robo
7. Cyber Bots
8. Dance Dance Revolution and YMMV.Dance Dance Revolution: Referring to songs rather than characters, but Tropes Are Flexible.
9. Characters.Dragon Ball Z Movie Villains
10. Characters.Dragon Quest IX, Dragon Quest VI, and Dragon Quest Monsters
11. Dynasty Warriors Gundam
12. Castlevania Harmony Of Despair: Getsu Fuma.

Reference to the Trope Namer, but correctly in the context of the trope:

1. Adaptation Displacement
2. Bootstrapped Theme
3. Come For The X Stay For The Y
4. Fan-Preferred Couple

Correctly referred to as a related trope in the description:

1. Adaptation First
2. Early-Bird Cameo

Unclear:

X Just X:

1. Characters.Bleach Anime
2. Dark Sun Dome
3. Doctor Slump
4. Fighters Megamix

International debut was in a different game, but don't know whether it was a cameo role:

1. Characters.Dragon Ball Supporting Cast: Gure.

Weird example that I think is correct under Tropes Are Flexible, or maybe some sort of Double Subversion or something:

1. Fatal Fury and Characters.Fatal Fury: So the cameo appearance came before the main appearance in the original market. BUT the cameo appearance was exported, and the main appearance was not, so we still have the disparity between the releases in the different markets.

Incorrect:

A character's first appearance is in a cameo role, but with no prior main-character appearances in another country:

1. Alice Comedies
2. Breakaway Pop Hit: Limp Bizkit's cover of "Behind Blue Eyes" first appeared in the film Gothika, about a week before the album was released.
3. Crossover Wars

Misused for Sequel First (the international debut was a different installment, but not in a cameo role):

1. Chivalrous Pervert
2. Chantelise
3. Castlevania Rondo Of Blood and Characters.Castlevania: Shaft.

Misused for Older Than They Think:

1. Birds of a Feather

Miscellaneous:

1. Dream Mix TV World Fighters: Potholed with "could have been introduced to the non-Japanese audience in this series" as part of a Natter (which I've deleted).

edited 21st Oct '11 7:20:49 PM by troacctid

Shaft was The Dragon in Rondo Of Blood, so that would be Sequel First.

Missue is somewhat small and its getting good inbounds. Redirects have been added, so I'm fine with the current name.

30 votes, at exactly 1:1

So we should get more votes.

If I understand the wick check correctly, there are 17 correct uses and 8 incorrect ones (not counting the "unclear" entries). That would be (8/25=) 32% misuse, then, which is quite a lot.

Wow, so much support for a Fan Myopic name.

I'm really on the edge on this one. I tend to favor titles that creatively reference works (even if I don't immediately get them, as in this case), but I just don't feel the name has the oomph or zazz to stick in folks' minds enough. It's a tiny bit vague, and reminds me of Cowboy BeBop at His Computer in a way.

edited 21st Oct '11 2:52:20 PM by ArtemisStrong