"Genre" screws up references: Super Robot Genre

From Exiled from Continuity:

Bullet accquires a genre? Awesome.

...but seriously, when Real Robot and Super Robot had "Genre" added to the end it messed a few things up. Now there's no way to refer to a robot of the given kind.

That's a bad example. The page Super Robot Genre is in fact about the genre, not the robots themselves. any example that uses Super Robot to talk about he 'bots is a bad example.

The very first line of Super Robot Genre: "The counterpoint to a Real Robot series (Or rather, Real Robots are the counterpoint to this), a fantastic Super Hero-like form of Humongous Mecha series."

The robots themselves are Humongous Mecha

edited 16th Jul '11 10:12:36 AM by Madrugada

Humongous Mecha is a general term. Many Super Robot series contain Real Robots (and the opposite occasionally happens as well). Then there's Super Robot Wars.

Once again, the word 'series' should have been used instead, as it sound less clunky and it is actually the word used.

Anyway, yeah, this example is wrong in the first place. You shouldn't use the term for the robot themselves. Correct it.

Still, the custom title is an evil thing. Sometimes it is more convenient and sound better to not use the third word (be it 'genre' or 'series'). It is not like all uses of "Super Robot" alone are wrong. The page Super Robot itself uses 'Super Robot' with the right context (i.e., referring to the genre, not the object) without tacking an additional word every time.

PS:But the trope is not about the robot itself, but about the genre. Even before the rename, using to refer to the robots is a mistake to be corrected. You can always do what you just did, and use 'Real Robot' without a link when talking about the machine.

edited 16th Jul '11 10:24:17 AM by Heatth

But if it's not linked then people won't know what it means. And a Super Robot series is defined by the presence of a Super Robot in it, to the point where most of the page is talking about the robot.

edited 16th Jul '11 10:31:56 AM by Prime32

The Inspector is most definately NOT a Super Robot show, so linking to that page is more likely to confuse than it is to explain anything.

Maddy, you've got it wrong. A Super Robot is a subtype of Humongous Mecha.

Analogy time!

Action Movie Genre = Humongous Mecha movie.

A Real Robot is to a Super Robot as a soldier is to a superhero.

While there's a great deal of overlap between the kind of robots and the genre it's likely to be in, this is just a function of the medium.

edited 16th Jul '11 4:19:28 PM by Deboss

Read the page. Super Robot is about the genre. Not the robot itself.

Humongous Mecha is about the robot. "The "mecha", or "giant robot", concept is ubiquitous in Japanese pop culture, and is more than adequately represented in anime. Despite the name, the robots need not actually be "giant" - some are merely human-sized, and some even smaller."

edited 16th Jul '11 5:59:50 PM by Madrugada

Really? The entire description focuses on the robots and the differences between different kinds of robots with only throw away references to the genre.

There's no description of the genre itself on the page or the tropes associated with the genre. Only the robots.

Humongous Mecha is about a different type of robot. Real Robot, Super Robot, and Humongous Mecha all have descriptions that say they're different types of robots.

edited 16th Jul '11 6:03:25 PM by shimaspawn

Ugh. This is probably going to take some looking over.

Humongous Mecha should apply to any sort of large mechanical war machine, generally bipedal.

Super Robot and Real Robot are common terms used to differentiate two of the major categories for Humongous Mecha, and can apply to both robots and series.

As a general rule, you have Super Robots in Super Robot Series, and Real Robots in Real Robot Series, but there are eceptions. Super Robot Wars OG The Inspector, for example, is certainly a Real Robot Series, but contains both Real Robots and Super Robots, due to a quirk in its origin. Similarly, G Gundam is a Super Robot series, but contains some Real Robots (though they are not focused on much)

It's also possible to have both Real Robot and Super Robot without Humongous Mecha, either through Mini-Mecha or Powered Armor, both of which use nearly identical tropes.

True, its uncommon, but it does happen.

Remember, I'm arguing in favor of putting the names back. They make more sense as nouns anyway. It's like if we custom titled Super Hero to be Super Hero Genre.

We should do them all its unfair to pick on certain ones like this, Film Noir etc.

edited 16th Jul '11 11:57:15 PM by Raso

Super Hero should be Super Hero Genre.

Do we want to use the trope transplant idea that was came up for in Super Hero for Real Robot and Super Robot?

I'd prefer it. I'm not too sure that those genres are sufficiently different from other genres. Beyond the application of giant robots I mean.

It might be worthwhile to separate Real Robot and Super Robot from Real Robot Genre and Super Robot Genre, even if only as fanspeak/useful notes or the like. Its been established that they can coexist, and exist within the different genres.

Of course, we have to come up with descriptions that won't cause major flamewars...

The genres are pretty well intrenched Real Robot shows are usually War Is Hell with Robots while Super Robot shows are more Villain of the Week and run on Rated M for Manly or the other direction of say Metrosexual with Tranformation Sequences. Comparing say Gundam and GGundam is like night and day.

edited 17th Jul '11 3:42:27 AM by Raso

Are they really separate from other genres like general War and fighting series though?

Super Robot definitely is. The focus is generally on the mecha themselves, rather than the plot. Monster of the Week is also common. Not too sure about Real Robot, which in the pursuit of realism will usually try to portray war realistically.

On the other hand, and further differentiating these genres from other similar genres, there are many exceptions.

edited 17th Jul '11 3:47:54 AM by AngryScientist

Is Starwars different from random Sword Fight Movie X? They are quite different.

Real Robot wiki page and Super Robot Wiki page genres are all pre-existing terms and how all Humongous Mecha anime and video games are divided.

edited 17th Jul '11 3:51:23 AM by Raso

Yes, but Star Wars is just generic sci-fi. Huge category. Not the best example, but I see where you're coming from.

This seems to be a wikiwide issue of lumping characters in with genres. We really should get them split apart. We should have taken a harder look when we split Cosmic Horror Story from Eldritch Abomination on the same grounds.

edited 17th Jul '11 7:40:02 AM by shimaspawn

Why? Genres tend to be fairly broad. Make it too narrow and you're describing a niche market within a genre, not a separate genre.

And if you think Cosmic Horror Story got the definition wrong, please make a different thread for that. I mentioned it only as an example of how the same phrase can be used to describe a characteristic of a genre (He fights a Cosmic Horror) and as the name of the genre (It's a Cosmic Horror Story) without problems — by adding a qualifying word like "story" or "genre", it become nigh impossible to accidentally link to the genre page when you're talking about the characteristic.

edited 17th Jul '11 7:36:43 AM by Madrugada

No, I think Cosmic Horror Story got it right, but the fact that we're finding multiple instances of the exact same problem that trope had pre-split across the wiki is a sign that we really should have been working harder to split genre from character type.