Trope bit is now missing: Black Magician Girl

No, as they are mutually exclusive tropes she should get entries on only the supertrope. It's the least confusing and the least likely to cause edit wars. Please stop trying to shoehorn Negeima into everything badly.

I am not trying to shoehorn anything she is very clearly an example. If I were to fit her in somewhere I would stick her in Lady of Black Magic as that's what she has been most of the time and people can evolve over time its called Character Development there is a Defrosting the Ice Queen trope for a reason.... bah whatever.

Anyways I think that Ice Queen on the Lady of Black Magic should have Kuudere added as quite a few are actual love interests in certain games like Persona 3 and Fate Stay Night.

edited 10th Apr '11 10:12:34 PM by Raso

What does being a love interest have to do with it?

Your initial post on the matter was rambling and confused and you didn't know which, if either, trope she belonged in. Now you're sure she's both. Please go get a second opinion (or two or three). You are not instilling confidence in me. Nothing will be harmed by having the example in limbo for a few days.

edited 10th Apr '11 10:16:30 PM by ccoa

I posted in the Negima thread for a second opinion...

And I was just saying that they are "more often are not a love interest unlike BGM" is wrong though they are more likely to be a love interest to someone (not necessarily the main character.) than a Black Magician Girl or at least was a love interest at one time and they are almost always Kuudere.

Lulu had Chappu and then Wakka, Mitsuru had the main character.

edited 10th Apr '11 10:26:48 PM by Raso

The page currently says they are rarely a Love Interest for the hero. Two counterexamples, at least one of which is optional, doesn't really mean that's wrong.

It's possible she may be more often a love interest for other characters, I'll have to review the examples tomorrow when I'm less tired. But I still don't see how that makes her Kuudere.

edited 10th Apr '11 10:28:45 PM by ccoa

That's a rare to be associated with the trope, not common. It shouldn't be on the main page just because it shows up once, kind of.

Yue has barely been shown using magic anyway. And she's also quite capable of brawling with a huge sword. Isn't it kind of against the spirit of the trope to have some wielding a sword that is literally larger than they are and not be seen using that much magic? Before that, she was support. No offense at all.

Edit: And while she's more or less a kuudere, she's not exactly... regal or anything.

edited 10th Apr '11 10:34:35 PM by Arha

Besides, it looks like Kuudere is just a subtrope of Ice Queen anyway so listing the supertrope should be sufficient as the character can be any of the subtropes.

Huh she is shown using that lance once and that's after she goes all military... and support? What do you call the gryphon dragon she takes out with the Lightning Axe spell? or the entire Magical Girl arc in general after she actually learns magic?

Bah keeping this in the negima thread.

Maybe but I think we should at least say that its more likely she is someone else's love interest.

edited 10th Apr '11 10:36:13 PM by Raso

I said before Ariadne she was support. All she had was that book and later one or two spells. And she's quite clearly called a magic knight. She wears a suit of armor, carries a giant lance and uses magic. She's not aloof enough to be a lady of black magic, and she's not really that magically based.

Except the examples don't really bare that out either outside of fanon. A lot of them aren't canon love interests to anyone. A couple might be optional side girls if you do the right quests, but they aren't anyone that is required to have a romance arc. It's not a necessary part of the trope.

Hmm well every example I know of there is some love interest in the picture but nevermind I guess.

Hmm... looking at the examples in the Black Magician Girl page right now, isn't Jessica Albert from Dragon Quest VIII more of a Lady of Black Magic than a Black Magician Girl? I remember her having a rich upbringing, posessing of a sharp tongue backed by a British accent, and generally having an overall bearing that's more lady than genki.

As for ccoa's list, these are the ones I could identify.

Black Magician Girl

• Large Ham Lutecia in Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Vivid, in sharp contrast to the more quiet Staff Chick Caro. Yes, that Lutecia. Looks like she was right in her belief that she'd get a "heart" once her mom revives.
• Arche of Tales Of Phantasia.
• Touhou's Marisa Kirisame fits this trope to a T, even if main character Reimu isn't precisely a Staff Chick. Loud, brash, and a pretty capable thief who uses her lifespan as an excuse for never returning anything she steals. Yet she's still one of the heroes of the setting, relatively speaking.

Lady of Black Magic

• The Star Ocean series uses this. The second game gives us Celine.
• Millenia from Grandia II. The twist being, she's the Superpowered Evil Side of the Staff Chick, Elena.
• Femme Fatale Evil Cleric Defector from Decadence Viconia from Baldurs Gate 2.

edited 11th Apr '11 8:00:35 AM by Servbot

Yes, Jessica is far more Lady of Black Magic. She's a bit more quick tongued than most, but she's still got the bearing and the temperament.

Sorry, I haven't played the game. I went by the description, and Fiery Redhead sounded more Black Magician Girl. Shouldn't have assumed.

Revised list of unsorted examples:

Okay, I could use some help sorting the remaining examples. They don't have enough context for me to say which, if either, they belong to.

Anime and Manga

• Although Kagura from Inuyasha has shown herself to be very fit physically (being a demon, it comes naturally for her), she always fights using wind-using spells and magic. She also has no issues cutting up your best friend and then turning them into a zombie to lure you into an ambush.
• A highly similar subversion to the Lunar: The Silver Star example below occurs in the .hack//tasogare no udewa densetsu anime and manga. Hotaru would be the battle mage of the group, except she's afraid to hurt the monsters. Meanwhile, the team's Staff Chick, Mireille, is scheming, outgoing and loud.
  • Also highly subversive if you watch the OAV after the series: Hotaru is actually played by a boy. Of course the main male character doesn't know this, thus Hilarity Ensues. This is not the case in the manga or light novels, where Hotaru is again shown in real life, and may be one of the reasons that the Animated Adaptation is not considered canon.
• Fatina, from the anime The Tower Of Druaga: The Aegis of Uruk. She uses a large staff that resembles a cannon for nuking things with her fire magic.
• Kuesu from Omamori Himari.
• While her naive personality is more in line with a Staff Chick, Mahoujin Guru Guru's Kukuri possesses demon summoning magic more in line with a Black Magician Girl.

Literature

• Daja Kisubo from Tamora Pierce's Circleof Magic series is arguably this. And she does some wicked stuff with that staff of hers.
  • Not to mention Trisana Chandler.

Video Games

• Kyra from Phantasy Star IV, a warm and friendly sort who appoints herself Cool Big Sis to the hero.
• Jenna and Sheba from Golden Sun.

• Rita of Tales Of Vesperia
• The Star Ocean series uses this. The fourth game gives us Lymle and Myuria. Sophia from the third game blurs the line between this and the Staff Chick.
• Angela of Seiken Densetsu 3, right down to the weapon and personality.
• Though neither of them have any magic powers, Dawn Star and Silk Fox in Jade Empire fit the personality archetypes of the Staff Chick and the Black Magician Girl perfectly.
• Yet another subversion is Paula from Earthbound. She has the personality and looks of a Staff Chick, but uses offensive spells such as PK Fire and PK Freeze. Kumatora from Mother 3 is more in line with the trope, though.
  • Paula does have a few Kumatora-ish moments, though. Like when you first meet her, and she offhandedly mentions how she would've had to bust out of her cell herself if Ness hadn't shown up.
    • This is only in the English version of game, though. In the Japanese version, she says she would start crying if he hadn't shown up.
• Gwen, an NPC in Guild Wars, is first encountered as a happy-go-lucky little girl who befriends the player in an idyllic countryside. Fast-forward eight years of game time, and she's a powerful Mesmer described as being driven primarily by hatred and anger.
  • Also, Eve, the game's signature Necromancer.
    • She gets a bit deredere for Yuri at a couple points too.
• Cierra in Riviera The Promised Land.
• Chelsea from Bunny Must Die.
• Dragon Age II has Merrill, who despite being much nicer than Morrigan, practices Blood Magic which is considered one of the most dangerous forms of magic, and has no healing magic other than using said blood magic to steal others' life force for herself.
• Delphine Jend in The Elder Scrolls Four: Oblivion. A sweet little woman who likes to kill cute woodland creatures with Expert-Level destruction spells.
  • And the Master destruction magic trainer Bralsa Andaren, who is actually out doing said killing of woodland creatures. Bonus in that she's also a Dark Elf.
• The Sorceress in Diablo II, who focuses entirely in Fire, Ice, Lightning offensive spells.
• Bayonetta combines this trope with Dante-esque Gun Fu and swordplay in one Crazy Awesome package.
• Subverted in Breath Of Fire 2 with Nina, who has more of a Staff Chick personality. Then played straight when Katt levels up sufficently or is shamenised and suddenly has enough PP to use all the magic she's been learning throughout the game.
• Sira is also a subversion. Her spells are destructive (coming dangerously close to becoming an instant 'I Win' button), but she's rather gentle and friendly. The spells themselves are also nature related as she conjures thorns, fungi, and ice splinters that grow like flowers.

Webcomics

• Ariel from Drowtales, though she prefers shapeshifting to her offensive spells.
• Iris from Aetheria Epics.
• Angelika from Our Little Adventure.

edited 17th Apr '11 10:03:48 AM by ccoa

Imoen by the time she becomes a mage really isn't either of the two tropes. She's no longer perky enough to be a Black Magician Girl, and she's not stately enough to be a Lady of Black Magic. She's more of an emo teenager. So, she shouldn't be on either.

Will do. Sticking her on Black Mage.

Just want to mention that you forgot to remove Millenia of Grandia II from your list. <<;

Yeesh.

Okay, I'm going to stick the rest on Black Mage since no one seems to know.