Headscratchers: The Dark Knight Rises
Bane: It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
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Bane and Batman's Armory and Secret Identity
- Just a thought. When Bane took over Batman's armory in the Wayne Enterprises building, does the third board member (or any of the public) become aware of the company/Fox's involvement with the Batman?
- Depends on whether or not Bane publicly declared where he got the tumblers.
- Where else could he have gotten them?
- Upon rewatch, the third board member likely did figure out that Fox was involved with Batman as Bane apparently leads them down to the reactor by going through the massive hole he blasted in the floor of applied sciences down into the sewers, so he'd see the tumblers and what not on the way.
- General public wouldn't know that Wayne Enterprises made the tumblers, so that wouldn't be a dead give-away. As for the board member, it's doubtful they'd know, either. Members of a board of directors don't oversee individual products and projects for the company, they handle long term planning and help liase with other companies(most will sit on the board of directors for several different companies, in fact). Fox, being the former head of applied science and R&D, is likely the only member of the board who knows they made the tumblers. Otherwise, they would have recognized the thing driving over roof tops on the evening news.
- Thing is, there has to be somebody out there who knows about Batman's vehicles. The general public does not, but both the Bat and the Tumbler (and probably the Batpod too) were weapons projects commissioned by the US Department of Defense. We know that at least two Tumblers were tested by the military, and it would be odd that Waynetech managed to develop a prototype of the Bat without somebody with start on his shoulders who at least had an idea of how did it look like. And unless Lucius assembled the vehicles all by himself, there are at least some mechanics and technicians who are aware they belong to Wayne.
- That would let the military in on the fact that Batman has access to Wayne technologies. It wouldn't necessarily prove he'd acquired them with the knowing aid of anyone at the company; if anything, it might get them checking their own ranks for Batman. Lacking knowledge of the League of Shadows, wouldn't their logical assumption be that someone who kicks that much ass single-handed must have military special-forces training? And who, so long as he's operating in Gotham, might as well steal some high-tech vehicles he'd learned about through his military connections, from a corporation that just happens to be headquartered in that city.
- I imagine the military is well aware of the Batman/Wayne Enterprises connection. As for why they aren't doing anything about it, well, to the Wild Mass Guessing page!
- The logical assumption for the Military people would be that Batman is being supplied by some big fish within Wayne Entreprises. It could be handwaved that perhaps at first the generals and whatnot were sympathetic to Batman's cauase, but once he got involved in Dent's murder, there is no justification for keeping a blind eye.
- the probleim with that "the military thinks it's one of their own" theory is, well, this rogue specs-op guy steals a ton of hardware from Wayne, and nobody noticed?
- Batman being Batman, he tries to keep all his gear undercover, hence the flat black paint. Every time we see anyone getting pictures of the Tumbler it's news helicopter footage taken at night. To anyone looking at the footage its a blurry black/tank car hybrid not specifically a tumbler. With it only ever getting seen from a distance in the dark with a camera it would be hard for anyone, even the military to put an exact ID on it.
- I was just watching Batman Begins last night, and during the big car chase scene, there is a chopper that spends a lot of time on top of the Tumbler, so unless the recording equipment malfunctioned somehow, there is no way the chopper didn't get a good picture of the car.
- A good picture of the black car driving at high speeds at night from a helicopter also traveling at high speeds, using cameras not made to get detail (have you ever seen footage from a police copter?)? I think you're overestimating the quality of equipment they'd have, and underestimate the difficulty of getting such a picture even with professional equipment.
- Except there is a moment in that chase, where the Tumbler is immobile on a high rise parking lot while Bruce is preparing to do a jump with the car, and the chopper flies close shinning the area0 with its spotlight. Also, while night vision cameras do not providing with much detal, they do show a sharp image of the basic shapes of any vehicle. And you can't deny the Tumbler has a very unique and easily identidfiable profile.
- That all depends on anyone involved in that project seeing that footage. If those people don't live in Gotham city it's plausable they never bothered to look at the footage.
- The military not bothering to look at footage of a vehicle that can jump between buildings and tear through streets like the ultimate urbanized tank? Say, rather, that they did take a look at it, but decided that admitting it was a stolen military prototype would be too much of a scandal and/or security risk.
- Mr Reese from the last movie proves that most people know what the Bat-Tumbler looks like. He even mocks Lucius for thinking that nobody who saw the Tumbler on the news and saw the designs for the Tumbler in Wayne Enterprises would think they were different vehicles.
- The fundamental flaw in all of the "The military should notice" arguments is that Batman isn't a national issue, he is a local issue. The most pursuit that has ever gone into hunting down Batman is the Gotham Police Department. There have never even been FBI involved in the Batman investigation. Batman is far below the military's radar, if they even know he exists at all.
- Which would be fine if Batman limited himself to beating up mobsters and drug dealers(though really, there *should* be FBI involvement in those cases), but the acts of terrorism in all three films are of the caliber that there is no way that this would avoid international attention.
- The acts of terrorism are, yes. Certainly, there should be all manner of FBI investigation into the League of Shadows. But Batman himself is not responsible for it; he's just a rogue vigilante that Gotham PD has yet to reign in. The worst he's committed was the murder of five people that he took the fall for at the end of Dark Knight, and that is far below the government's radar. The League of Shadows is an international terrorist group that demands a military response, but Batman is still just a local problem.
- But Batman is officially tied to both the League of Shadows attack in the first film and the Joker's acts of terrorism in the second. He's officially wanted for the murder of a district attorney of one of the largest cities in the world. You know who's going to be aware of something like that? US attorneys. Batman also gets involved in several organized crime cases. The FBI generally runs their own, independent investigations of organized crime cases because said offenders break federal laws in addition to local and state. If you have a vigilante running around with military grade hardware with a goddamn assault vehicle, the government is going to take notice whether he works on the local level or not- especially if he goes running of to Hong Kong to abduct a Chinese national. The fact that he's using equipment made for the US Government could constitute national security violations, or at least raise the concern. He's not just a local problem; he represents a very real breach in security.
- Okay, let's see if I can clear some of this up. Point the first: Reese didn't recognize the tumbler was explicitly a Wayne design until he found the blueprints. Point the second: It wasn't well-known by everyone in Gotham that Wayne Enterprises had built the Tumbler. Not everyone had seen it. In fact in TDK when a criminal sees the Bat Signal and gets spooked, his would be partner gripes "you have a better chance of winning the lottery than running in to him." Point the third: Not every piece of R&D military hardware is "commissioned". In fact, very little of it is. Usually military hardware is built to a specific need and several companies build prototypes and place bids with The Pentagon. Then if the prototype is successful, the government will send someone out for a look-see. The Tumbler: Was supposed to be a bridging vehicle, and it never worked. The prototype was unsuccessful, so the government never saw it. The Bat: Lucius Fox built it as a prototype...did he ever say he pitched it? No. It too had a flaw, he couldn't get the auto-pilot to work. Again, never pitched, never demoed. Point the third: The guys who view and review every R&D pitch for The Pentagon or DARPA or whomever makes the calls for ordering prototypes into production are spread as thin as every other government bureaucrat. They're overworked and backlogged. They aren't going to remember every successful prototype the see, so if they'd even seen the Tumbler or The Bat it likely wouldn't have made much more of an impression than "something Wayne Enterprises pitched that didn't work." Forgotten before they get on the flight back to DC. Also the military doesn't investigate domestic criminals, the FBI does. And the FBI doesn't just get access to secret military R&D specs with a phone call. They aren't on the same floor, they aren't even in the same building. It's not like they could pick up the phone and go "hey, pentagon, what's that thing Batman drives." And if they could, it was a failed prototype, it's not like someone is just going to rattle off "oh yeah, that was from Wayne Enterprises." You'd have to go through a huge backlog of rejected prototypes probably going back at least 15 years. Do you know how many R&D projects get pitched to the Pentagon every year? Thousands, now multiply that by 15 or 20, and you have to search them individually, with a team of 50 at most. So thinking that anyone in the government ever saw the Tumbler, (and nobody ever saw The Bat, Fox NEVER mentions pitching it, just what he built it for) much less could recognize it off the top of their head...and would share a top secret military prototype (even a rejected one) is actually the real stretch of the imagination.
- The point about Reese was mostly to counter the claim that no one in the public would be able to recognize the Tumbler from some blurry news footage; Reese does just that. And it is a valid point, with or without the military part, since somebody out there had help design or assemble it, unless Fox managed to do it all single-handedly.
Here's to You, Mrs. Robinson
- A very minor one but : Why is the Jen character called "Jen" instead of Holly Robinson ? She is obviously the exact same character as Holly Robinson and looks exactly like her. Why not just call her Holly Robinson, then ? Just to mess with our head ? Or maybe Christopher Nolan made a bet that he would get a post on Tvtropes complaining about this useless tiny change. In which case, Mr Nolan, if you're reading this, I'm glad to have made you win your bet, thank you for this awesome saga.
- To make sure no money goes Frank Miller's way?
- To get around that they could just as easily have named her Holly and not mentioned her last name.
- You're welcome. Just kidding.
- While I think some sort of royalties/trademark situation with Frank Miller is more likely, maybe they didn't want people to wonder why she has the same name as real life actress Holly Robinson Peete. I mean, if you were adapting a story with a minor character, who will only appear in a few scenes and have little dialogue, named, say, "Jean-Claude Van," might you not be tempted to change the character's name so people didn't assume he was named after the actor? (If John Stewart ever appears in a live-action Green Lantern movie, I expect him to be referred to a "Johnathan Stewart" or "Lt. Stewart" (or whatever rank he had) a lot!)
- My personal headcanon holds that Jen is a false identity for a street thief who wanted to escape her former life as Holly Robinson. (Though I'm not too familiar with the comics and whether or not this is actually the case for the name "Holly" itself, come to think about it.)
- A similar case is the Daggett character, who seems to be a version of Roland Daggett of Batman: TAS but is named John Daggett instead.
- I seriously doubt it has much if anything to do with royalties; its probably just part of the trend that Nolan simply dislikes using too many characters from the comics, and there are very few of them in these movies to begin with. If I had to guess, he probably just thinks that since these characters in the movie aren't going to be doing all that much, or will be relatively unimportant, then he might as well not name after well-known characters since that way he can do what he likes with them without worrying too much about negative fan backlash- fact is, Jen is not Holly and since she isn't, people are complaining more about her name rather than how relatively unimportant her role was or how she disappeared from the film in the 3rd act.
Passing the Torch
- Okay, I get that Robin is about to become the new Batman or whatever. But did Bruce actually hand over control to him? It was implied that Robin found it himself. I highly doubt that Bruce would just leave the Batcave operational without a few passwords at the least so how is Robin going to actually use the equipment?
- Of course Bruce handed it over to him. He didn't "find it," he was following GPS coordinates given to him in that bag.
- What I don't get is how is Blake going to be Batman at all? Not only he lacks Bruce's League training, but he also lacks his immense wealth, access to advanced R&D, and a tech wizard like Lucius Fox. What's exactly he going to do when the suit breaks or some gadget needs maintenance? At first I thought of the possibilty that Bruce may finance him, but doesn't seem possible since not only Bruce abandoned his possessions in order to disappear (if he actually did and that wasn't just Alfred's imagination), but he was already struggling with being at the edge of bankruptcy before that.
- Terry McGinnis from Batman Beyond is able to hold his own with the help of the bat suit, possessing nothing more than street smarts and some fighting experience. Although he has more difficulty initially, he gets better with experience and with Bruce's guidance. On the other hand, Blake, in addition to having street smarts and good instincts, is a cop that can probably handle himself reasonably well sans the ninja training.
- Undoubtedly there is going to be some interruption of Bat-services in the short term. We don't know what kind of training Blake has, but he handled himself pretty well with a handgun. Additionally, there is no indication that Batman is needed to the extent that he was in dealing with Ra's, Joker, and Bane. There were 8 years of super-villain (apparently) free Gotham. Blake may have the time he needs to become his own version of Batman, with the smaller tests (thugs, remnants of League mooks, etc) that he needs to figure everything out. Additionally, there were multiple copies of the suit and most of the equipment. The support gear in the Batcave could be a problem, but if Bruce designed it himself, he may have done so taking in account that the equipment spends its time in a damp cave—so it could be built to last. If all else fails, new sightings of the Batman are going to draw Lucius Fox's attention.
- I don't think he'll even need to wait for that. He's a smart guy. No doubt if he can figure out that Bruce was Batman, he can figure out Fox was helping him. It'd only stand to reason that he could look back and think, "Hey, this is the guy Bruce put directly in charge of his company the second he was back in town, and who Batman felt was extremely important in helping right at the end there."
- Blake was present at the reading at the end, which was basically a meeting of the "We know who Batman really was" club, giving Wayne the send off he deserved but could never officially have. As such, he knows perfectly well that Fox is in on it, and there will probably be instructions in the computer telling him to go to Fox for supplies and logisitcs. Not only that, Gordon will probably instantly recognise and support him when goes "official".
- Alternately, he knows Batman was Bruce Wayne. So he approaches Alfred and asks "Where did he get those wonderful toys?" and Alfred introduces him to Lucius.
- Note that at the end, Blake actually walked in on to the will reading. You kind of can't do that unless you're invited. That alone is a substantial indicator that Blake was at least tacitly accepted by Fox for the role.
- Now it was in the middle of the theater so it was a bit hard to hear, but can someone explain the backstory of Talia. I understand she made the leap and all that but Bane loved her or something right and trying to help someone escape meant that you would get beaten up. I missed a lot.
- Ras was the mercenary in the story. He fell in love with the warlord's daughter, married her, and got her pregnant. For that Ras was dumped in the pit. His wife sacrificed herself to free him, but had to take his place in the pit. That's where Talia was born. Bane was another inmate who took the two women under his wing, but he couldn't stop the other prisoners from killing Talia's mother (BTW this is utterly illogical, they would have to be idiots to kill a VERY pretty woman who is also the only woman available). Realizing that he couldn't protect her forever, Bane helped Talia escape but the other inmates wanted Talia for themselves (for squicky reasons, most likely) and destroyed his face in their anger. Talia found Ras, Ras came back to kill all the inmates in revenge, and rescued Bane. But Ras couldn't stand him because it reminded Ras of his own failure, so he exiled Bane and Talia followed him.
- Actually, it seemed more like she was thrown in the pit while Ra's simply wasn't, and he may not have even known about the pit before Talia told him, let alone that he narrowly avoided it. Also, while Ra's may have had trouble standing the sight of Bane (this is Talia and Bane's version of events, after all) it is implied that Bane really was, as Alfred put it, too extreme for him. Talia didn't follow Bane; she went her own way after Bane was kicked out, but found him again after her father died.
- You're half right. It is explicitly stated in the first telling of the Pit story that Ra's was sentenced to the Pit and his wife agreed to take his place, thus freeing him. It is implied that Ra's never knew what happened to his wife until long after her death. He probably just assumed that she managed to convince her father to free him. As for Bane, there are multiple reasons why Ra's threw him out of the League of Shadows, both stated above. Bane was too extreme, and as Talia says, Ra's saw Bane as a monster because of his intensity and because looking at him reminded Ra's of the monsters of the Pit.
- Given how obsessive Ra's was about retribution, I very much doubt he would've let his wife remain in the pit for a moment if he'd known what happened to her. Most likely, his father-in-law banished him from the country by claiming that he would spare Talia's mother from any punishment if he never returned, then tossed her into the prison as soon as her husband had left.
- Maybe the real reason Ras could not bear to look at Bane was because he saw Bane as better than him — after all, Bane was the one who sacrificed himself to protect Ras' wife and child in the hells of the Pit, while Ras simply walked away scot-free.
- It may be "utterly illogical" that other prisoners killed Talia's mother, but that doesn't make it unlikely. Perhaps (for instance) one of the prisoners lashed out when she rejected his advances.
- Not pleasant to think about, but her death was likely an accident...literally raped to death in the frenzy, perhaps? Dying later of internal injuries.
- Who, exactly, is expecting a group of criminals so bad they were just thrown into a pit to be completely logical and rational in their actions?
- The flashbacks that show the criminals in there as being truly evil bastards are told from the perspective of Talia and Bane. When we see the prisoners who are down there with Bruce they certainly don't seem seem like the worst of the worst. It seems a lot more likely that the prison is filled with people that the warlord and probably later Ras thought needed punishing. Now the reality is that unless the men in question were literal saints or eunuchs being the only woman locked in a pit with dozens of men is likely to end poorly but when Bruce is dropped in the pit he can't walk. And these people not only helped him walk again unless he was walking almost immediately they were also taking care of him. Food, water and help with getting to whatever serves as a bathroom down there.
Dent's Magic Act
- How does the passing of one law magically fixes all of Gotham's crime problems, to the point Bruce can retire from being Batman?
- From the context that it was discussed in, the Dent Act prevented criminals guilty of mafia-related crimes from getting early parole. It's essentially Dent's gambit from the second movie—except instead of the mid- and low-level guys being unable to make bail (clean streets for months), all the convicted mob members can't get out early (clean streets for years). The mobs themselves figure the price of doing business in Gotham is too high, and go elsewhere. Sure, there is still crime, but it is petty and unorganized—nothing the police can't handle.
- There is also the fact that the Act worked because Gordon is the man in chage of putting all those bad guys in jail. If it was anybody else as Commisioner, the Mafia would just hand out a briefcase or two full of cash and get out easily. Laws are only good if they are enforced, and you could say Gordon was the hero that Gotham needed at the time.
- It probably helped that all the significant leaders of the mob (like the Chechen, Gambol, and certainly Maroni) were directly or indirectly killed by The Joker.
- And Batman may have been at least a little active after Dent's death, unless finishing his repairs to the cave and keeping his equipment updated was just a hobby.
- There are also other considerations to take into account. First of all half of the mob's life savings were burnt by the Joker after he retrieved Lau from jail which is gonna be a pretty heavy blow financially. On top of that there isn't anyone left in Gotham to launder money for them as Dent had put all the money launderers in Gotham behind bars. No one else abroad is going to want to work for the mob after what happened to him (Batman has no jurisdiction). Then there was the fact that people are going to know that the mob are the ones who hired the Joker. You know the crazy clown who killed a District Attorney and burnt half of Harvey Dent's face off in Gotham. As Dent's killings were covered up everyone still believes that throughout his life Dent was a man who came from humble beginnings to rise to be a public servant who devoted his life to ensuring that Gotham was a better safer place to live in. It will be known that the mob hired the Joker as the Chechen said to put the word out on the street. Chances are a police informant or someone trying to cut a deal will mention this holding the mob responsible for the ax crazy guy who killed all those people. There is really no way they can get out.
- How could Bruce escape the pit with a leg injury so bad that he can't even walk properly? At first I thought he was faking it but the doctor clearly told him there is no cartilage left in his knee. (Yet moments later he SQUATS while talking to Gordon, and then leaps up without even any popping or groaning!) He did receive some sort of power-brace to made him able to walk and also kick super-strong, but I doubt Bane would have left him that luxury since he was stripped before being thrown into jail, fully expecting he could never escape.
- It's implied to be the Lazarus Pit.
- Huh? Where, exactly?
- Ra's al Ghul's for all intents and purposes back, just not in the flesh. The prison is referred as the pit at least once. The chant is "He rises". I think there's enough subtext hidden within the narrative for that to be seen as a Nolan version of the Lazarus Pit.
- Ahh! Sorry, I thought you meant the Pit as in the actual green bubbly magical pit, not Nolan's "realistic" equivalent. I'll admit I missed that. Nice!
- Lack of cartilage is a chronic condition, not an injury. Hence, it can be dealt with very differently. It's possible his knee was frozen, and moving with the brace improved his range of motion to the point where he no longer needed it.
- Unlikely. I could be wrong, but I thought the x-ray of his leg showed his femur and tibia effectively lying bone-on-bone, so unless he received some kind of surgical cartilage graft or a knee replacement, he would likely be in pain during movement and would most likely have very limited range-of-motion. Even if he could walk, it would probably be very difficult for him to bear weight—like his bat-suit.
- The film doesn't expect the audience to understand this, and merely implies that Bruce's joint degeneration is due to his time as Batman. However, he obviously wasn't hobbling around with a cane by the end of The Dark Knight and he hasn't been Batman for 8 years since then. He was only Batman for perhaps a couple of years at most since he first brought down Carmine Falcone to the point where he took the fall for Harvey Dent. Bruce should not be in the shape he's in by this time for the reasons his doctor gave. It would be more realistic if he had simply wasted away by neglecting his fitness in the intervening years.
- Batman actually was stumbling as he runs for to the Batpod at the end of The Dark Knight, so it's possible the knee injury was a result of the several story fall he took saving Gordon's son from Harvey Dent.
- Aside from all the other things Batman is known for, he is known for his sheer willpower. Bruce Wayne likely has excruciating pain as a daily companion and just forces himself to move in spite of it when he has to. Through the first two movies he gets all sorts of injuries, and there is an unknown amount of Bat-time (at least a year) between the first and second movies. Interestingly, he does look somewhat wasted away in the beginning of the movie (hollower cheeks) but once he is determined to be Batman again, he presumably eats more regularly because his face fills out a bit. Presumably, he also engages in some sort of fitness routine prior to his time in the Pit.
- There is a six month gap in between the first two films, so he was Batman for less than a year the first time around.
- Perhaps Bruce neglected the physical therapy that he needed for his injuries because of his depression following Rachel's death. Inactivity may have worsened his condition and protracted his recovery.
- Chronic conditions don't have "recovery". However, I live with someone who has the same problem as Bruce; cartilage deterioration. It causes intense amounts of pain every time the joint is moved, but with enough willpower and determination, it can be fought through. It will never go away, but it doesn't physically prevent the joint from moving; it just makes it extremely painful.
- I'm gonna quote Sherlock on this, because the situation matches remarkably well. Notice how there are times when Bruce's leg doesn't seem to bother him before he gets the brace. When he's dancing with Selina Kyle, notice that he doesn't have any problem on either leg and isn't using a cane to keep himself up (though having a dancing partner to lean on may have helped). That made me think of this:
Sherlock: Your limp's really bad when you walk, but you don't ask for a chair when you stand, like you've forgotten about it. That means the limp is at least partly psychosomatic. That says the original circumstances of the injury were traumatizing.
- It makes me think his leg wasn't actually that bad. The doctor notes that both his legs are damaged, he doesn't single out the right one. So why is Bruce walking with a cane instead of crutches, unless his leg was made worse by emotional trauma? Once he decided to live again in the pit the trauma started to heal, and his leg got somewhat better.
- Selina Kyle wears high heels that seem to be made of steel or aluminum. Now ignoring the likely balance problems with wearing impractical footwear when scaling a building what kind of sound do you think that would make when walking across your average floor? Does a cat burglar really want shiny bits of metal making loud clicking sounds when trying to steal a diamond or something? Though she also wears goggles with shiny lights on the front so maybe I shouldn't expect much. At least I wouldn't if Nolan hadn't prided himself on the supposed plausibility of the Batsuit before this point.
- Pictures can be seen here◊ and here.◊ If you can tear your attention away from the skintight bits you will notice them.
- Why does she kick the button on the window wiper lift when pressing it is just as easy? Despite the Rule of Cool, really, there's no need.
- I didn't see her kick it. I saw her severing a wire with the blade...
- I've seen stuff like this before, in the pics of the new Spidey costume for that reboot. I think they had something to do with stunt work or somesuch, and I suspect that its similiar here.
- This article hints that there is more to the costume and specifically the heels than one would necessarily expect which really brings us back to the firm advice that should be taken into consideration when on a headscratchers page for a movie a year away: wait and see.
Does Commissioner Gordon find out that Bruce Wayne is Batman?
- Because in the trailer, he's clearly talking to Bruce (the voice gives it away) about Batman. Sure, he could be talking to Bruce about Batman without knowing who it is, but the tone of the conversation suggests that he does know.
- Literally impossible to answer until the film, well...comes out.
- In the scene with Gordon in the hospital talking to Batman about Gotham needing him to come back, he really IS talking to Bruce - who just happens to be wearing a business suit with a balaclava on so Gordon doesn't know it's him. Later, Gordon tells Batman he never really cared who he was under the cowl. And then at the film's end, Batman tells him he's someone who as a boy, was comforted by a cop the night his parents died. Gordon puts two and two together.
- ...because apparently, in a city controlled by crime where the law is powerless, Bruce was the only orphaned child Gordon ever took the time to comfort.
- Because it's not, and never was, Gordon's job to make sure every child in the city who was missing parents gets a hug. He comforted Bruce because he happened to be working the night his parents were shot right in front of him. Crapsack World though Gotham might be, I really don't think there are that many children seeing both their parents gunned down right in front of them during Gordon's shift.
- Gordon may have comforted other kids, but he's definitely going to remember when one of the kids was Bruce Wayne.
- Plus, well, that's why they call it 'putting two and two together'. Gordon will almost certainly have had occasion to comfort other kids who lost their parents, but how many of those other kids will have had access to the kind of resources that could fund something like Batman? That comment made it possible for him to piece the other clues together.
A Long-Haired Cat
- Why does Selina have long hair, despite Nolan's predilection toward realism? Never mind that she's been depicted with long hair a lot, in comics and other media; short hair is surely more practical for the character. Besides, Selina does have short hair in the current comics. And Anne Hathaway did cut her hair after filming ended, if I'm not mistaken.
- As evidenced in the film, Selina uses seduction as a big part of her M.O. Personal taste aside, the majority of men tend to prefer women with long hair. Why she doesn't tie her long hair into a ponytail once she stops the subterfuge is another question entirely.
- Not to mention her Combat Stilettos. In truth, Nolan's films aren't that much more realistic than previous incarnations of the character. They're just less outlandish, which isn't necessarily the same thing as being more realistic. Despite seemingly scientific explanations for all of Batman's gadgets, for example, the technology required to make most of them possible are still quite a few years away.
- Apparently, her high heels will be addressed in the film, although how is anyone's guess at this point.
- The length of hair has nothing to do with "realism". I guess they just decided she looked better with long hair.
- If Batman can zip around on a motorcycle with his cape flowing behind him and not getting caught in the wheels or on the scenery, Selina's hair can't be that big of a deal.
- They already addressed the cape issue in the special features of The Dark Knight DVD where they explained that they originally decided that the memory technology in the cape would allow it to fold up into a backpack shape so it would be out of the way. When they tested the pod using the costume, however, the cape never got snagged in anything and also flowed like a cape normally would.
- The serrated edge heels are brought up during the standoff in her confrontation with Daggett. Stryver says, "Nice outfit. Those heels make it tough to walk?" She responds, ""I don't know. [stomps on his foot, stabbing him in the instep] Do they?" then does awesome acrobatics. So... subverted? Also Selina is a Con Artist, not a fighter. Her whole modus operandi is to be able to blend in as much as possible when incognito. Her opening scene shows her dressed as a meek young maid in Wayne Manor (wearing five-inch heels!). Short hair blends, but gives less options for disguise.
- As part of being a thief, Selina also seduces rich guys to get close to them before stealing their jewelry and their money. And let's be honest: as cute as Anne Hathaway may look with her hair recently cut short, she looks a lot more alluring and sexy with long, lustrous hair.
- Anne Hathaway's hair was cut for her role of Fantine in Les Misérables (2012), so that's probably not relevant to her hairstyle in DKR.
Now If He'd Had a Lead-Lined Refrigerator....
- At the end of the movie, how did Bruce survive the blast?
- Look at the scene just before the Bat triumphantly flies out over the bay, before it flies over the bridge. Its arrival is hailed by an exploding building, and it flies out through the flames and smoke. As evidenced throughout the entire movie (and especially during the rocket chase), the Bat has ABSOLUTELY NO NEED to do that, even with a heavy bomb attached. My theory is that Batman blew up part of the building and ejected in there, with the autopilot taking it the rest of the way.
- Bruce had fixed the autopilot, but hadn't told anyone, allowing him to fake his death because everyone watching would assume he had to be at the controls. This is why Lucius looked so surprised at the end when the technicians told him Bruce had patched the software.
- I'm actually more curious about how Bruce got the bomb so far out to sea in the limited time he had. Can't quite remember the details, but I think Pavel or Bane mentioned that the blast radius was around 50ish miles, and the timer was hitting 5 minutes when the reactor was cabled to the Bat. Judging from its flight scenes, I highly doubt it's capable of hitting speeds of 600mph, not when the fastest helicopters only hit 250 mph, and propeller aircraft manage just over 500mph.
- The radius was specifically mentioned to be six miles. And if anyone wants to bitch about fallout, a fusion weapon which does not use fission as a catalyst would produce dramatically less radiation.
- If anyone wants to bitch about fallout, they weren't paying attention when the reactor was explicitly called a "clean, free energy source". A clean energy source does not produce fallout.
- Man my hearing must be off. I feel even worse now that I've looked up the blast radii of modern nukes and they don't go anywhere near 50 miles.
- The line was actually Bane's, so you're easily forgiven for not understanding it.
- The impression I got from the revelation of the autopilot being fixed is that Bruce fixed it long before the conflict with Bane escalated, but when the time came for him to use it to save himself, he chose not to. The scene with Lucius is to let the audience know that Bruce decided to "die a hero".
- Batman is known for being Crazy-Prepared. In this case, that preparation allowed the Batman to "die" and immortalize the symbol, while allowing Bruce Wayne to move on with with his new love, Selina Kyle. The Lucius scene is like the Gordon scene (where a fixed Bat-signal indicates that Bruce Wayne didn't die), and Alfred's scene (actually seeing Bruce and Selina in that cafe.) So finding the autopilot had been fixed months prior is an indication that Bruce used it as his ticket out of the costumed vigilante life.
- It was, apparently, 6 miles, which means that, given the time on the bomb, Batman would have had to fly faster than 200 miles per hour, in a helicopter, and eject. The fastest helicopter can travel 160 miles per hour.
- A modified Westland Lynx currently holds the helicopter world speed record at 400.87 km/h, or 249.09 miles per hour.
- Unfortunately, the Bat isn't a helicopter. Fox even says it was designed to be able to maneuver between buildings, not to maintain high speeds. It would have to be moving as fast as the world's fastest helicopter to just be able to get six miles out once clearing the piers (he has about a minute and thirty seconds on the timer once he makes it to the water). At the very least, the docks should be a mess, let alone the big mushroom cloud of steam on the distant horizon.
- Fox says it's designed to maneuver quickly, but I don't recall him ever saying it won't reach high speeds. They're not mutually exclusive.
- Also safe to assume, DC world technology is much better than real world technology in Nolan's movies as they are in the DC universe. Some of the Justice League's jets have traveled a quarter of the way around the world in just a few minutes,
- Looking at the scene again, the Bat has some kind of booster on the back which is clearly firing as Batman clears the bridge, that can give it the extra speed needed to get far enough away.
- The core isn't a time bomb, ticking down to the moment when a built-in device will trigger a detonation. It's an energy core that is steadily becoming less and less stable. The timer is a rough approximation of when the core is expected to destablize to the point of meltdown. It can be forgiven for not being so precise as to nail the exact second of detonation, and in fact, it is impressive that they were able to set a timer for as close as they did.
- The last shot of Batman piloting the Bat is only five seconds away from detonation. And even if he ejected, he'd still be moving forward from the momentum due to the high speeds needed for the Bat to tow the core out to sea (an ejector seat that canceled that momentum would need to propel him at the exact same speed the Bat is moving, in the opposite vector.) So one way or another, he'd still be deep inside the blast radius. How exactly did he escape it?
- Who's to say that was him in the cockpit? Or more to the point, that the whole cockpit couldn't eject and work as another vehicle of some sort? That shot might just be him in his brand new bat submarine heading in the opposite direction.
- All we really see is Batman sitting on a black leather-looking chair of some kind. We don't know what vehicle he's in at all at that point.
- What's to say he didn't just eject as he was grazing along the top of the last building, dropping out the bottom or something and then just leaving it on a max speed forward course, as he reaches the ocean I think it says something like 2 and a half minutes left, which at 120mph would leave the bomb outside of the blast radius and Bruce Wayne within the city limits and alive, he slips out with Selena shortly afterwards.
- Can't help but think the fact that there is another Bat with a working autopilot comes into play somehow. Program (or remotely command) the second one to be at a certain point, then switch Bats after the one carrying the bomb has had its autopilot course set in. Using this theory, an easy switch point would be when blowing up the building on the coastline in order to fly through it. Distraction and theatricality...
- The way the scenes play out, it's Batman in the cockpit after he cleared the bridge, then it cuts to Blake on the Bridge watching the Bat fly off and slowly realising what's happening, then it's the cut to the timer, then it's a cut to the Bat in the distance before it blows up. So plenty of time for Batman to eject and escape.
- Six miles was the estimated radius of the blast's effect if it went off at ground level. Possibly having it detonate as an air-burst cut back on its scope a bit, as force that would've been deflected outward by the ground was able to disperse downward into water, which absorbed and dispersed the concussive pressure instead.
- Explosions do not work that way. On ground or in air wouldn't have noticeably affected the blast radius. That being said, however, the core is not a bomb. The core is an unstable reactor core. Both the time of detonation and the radius of the blast are rough estimations on new technology that nobody fully understands yet. It's entirely possible that the detonation time, blast radius, or both were off on their estimate. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that Batman was actually in the cockpit when the bomb went off, as we are explicitly told that the autopilot was functioning and that Batman was talking out of his ass when he said it wasn't. He could have ejected from the Bat at any point during the trip, before or after it left the city, and it would have stayed on its course.
How the hell does Bane eat?
- He chews, then swallows.
- Feeding tube?
- Or he takes off the mask to eat, and he's in a lot of pain as he sits down to eat. Endurable, but nothing like the distraction of being in agonizing pain while trying to fight someone.
- Or he injects himself with morphine before he eats, but doesn't use opiates as a painkiller while fighting because that'd kill his alertness.
- Emergency induction port.
- That's a straw, Bane.
- Probably best not to question what he calls it.
- He waits until his morphine level is up in the highest he's willing to go, then he gives himself permission to dine.
- Yes I do feel bad about that one.
Getting Rid of a Bomb
- How does the bomb not go off after so many impacts? And going through a fiery building? And also, the wheels on that bike. That's not how physics works.
- The motors for the Batpod are on the wheels themselves, so there's no driveshaft/belt-drive to keep the wheels from rotating on two different axes, parallel and perpendicular to the orientation of the pilot, which they do, so they are never at odds with the direction of travel. Having to lay down the Batpod to make an emergency stop would kind of put a damper on a chase. I'm sure with enough money to throw at gyroscopes some defense contractor could make it work.
- Comic book physics, comic book physics, Bat-tech. I doubt you're going to find the answers you want.
- It's not that easy to set off a nuke. You could take a sledgehammer to a nuclear bomb, and have absolutely nothing happen. Bombs like that require a specific sort of reaction to detonate, a reaction that isn't provided by physical impact, or even heat.
- Not to mention that it's a fusion bomb, so unless that casing's made out of Wolverine's bones, rupturing and depressurizing it will end any threat of a nuclear detonation.
- Actually, his bones themselves aren't that durable, it's the adamatine that's been mixed into them.
- Pretty much this, a nuclear reaction wouldn't just start because someone bumped it, if I remember correctly modern nuclear bombs use an explosion to force fissionable materials into each other at really high speeds which triggers the resulting explosion, just bumping a bomb even at decent speeds likely wouldn't set it off, the danger there would more likely be leakage of the materials and seeing as this is a fusion device, not fission, that'd probably be less of an issue.
- It's not a nuclear bomb, it's an unstable nuclear core. No part of it is designed to set off a carefully timed series of reactions to cause an explosion; it's experiencing a steadily destabilizing series of reactions that will ultimately result in explosion once the reaction deteriorates to a certain extent. Smashing it into things is likely to cause this to happen sooner.
- Reactor cores and nuclear reactions do not work that way! in a fission reactor, a neutron smashes into a uranium nucleus, splitting it to provide energy, and also releasing more neutrons. The explosion occurs because with each split there are more and more neutrons, and therefore more splits happen, making it go faster and faster, not because something somehow becomes "explosive" and then explodes due to shock. The "Bomb" is a fusion core. If this is anything like the theoretical real-world device, it uses energy to fuse nuclei into more stable forms, and more energy is released than is needed to trigger a fusion. As such a device has not yet been invented for real, we can't go into specifics, suffice to say that the explosion happens because of something on the atomic level, which really doesn't care about non-precise things like bumps in the real world. The size difference is just too great for the reaction to be affected.
- The bomb is described was being retasked from a FUSION reactor Wayne Enterprises was developing as a CLEAN energy source, if this is true then the fusion material used in the reactor is likely non-radioactive; hence why everyone can walk up to and handle the reactor with no safety material. While it is plausible that the core would degrade in time, how would it spontaneously trigger? Radioactive fission occurs spontaneously so radiation is released over time. But a fusion core degrading would simply go inert because fusion materials don't have to be radioactive; especially not for a clean energy source (no radioactive byproduct as we have in fission reactors today). So after 5 months the core should in fact become useless.
- The fusion device was implied to be something different from our conventional knowledge of fusion devices. Dr. Pavel's paper on how one could convert it into an actual bomb indicates as much.
- Also the doctor can be seen removing objects from the reactor and replacing them, I'm not sure if it's a part of the reactor, but it could be possible that the doctor added something else to it to help it become more boomy.
- That might also explain the Exact Time to Failure for a process that had taken several months to destabilize the core — the timer could have been connected to something that could provide the "last straw" push when the core was close to fully destabilized, just to make absolutely sure the bomb went off properly instead of fizzling out somehow.
Why did Bane wait for 8 years to attack Gotham?
- Since Talia is the one calling the shots, I guess she was waiting for all the pieces to come in place. They had to wait for Bruce to sink his company into the building of a fusion reactor, and then become desperate enough to hand over control of the company to Talia. They had to get Bruce's fingerprints in order to sink Bruce's company. They had to spend time and resources finding the one scientist who could turn the reactor into a weapon, and locate Wayne's armory.
- She also needed time to establish her Miranda Tate identity, and work her way into a position to take control of Wayne Enterprises.
- Somewhat related: Why did they wait out the 5 months instead of detonating the bomb immediately?
- Bane explained that he wanted Bruce to see his city slowly destroyed. Blowing it up right away, while painful, wouldn't be as bad as watching it blow up after rotting away from the inside over the course of months, having millions die at their worst.
- Furthermore, Bane explained during his whole Pit speech that in order to experience true despair, one must have hope to be stripped away. The five months were meant to give people hope. Threaten them with a bomb, but give them a way that the bomb won't explode, and let them destroy themselves trying to reach a false promise of salvation, before taking that salvation away and killing them all anyway.
- Considering they had several sites of explosive-laden concrete around the city and the field and bridges, it may have taken that long to get set up without drawing attention.
- Um, awesome moment taking out those two guys by yourself, Gordon, but where the hell did you get that pistol, which was clearly not on the henchmen and clearly not by your hospital bed?
- Under his pillow. At least I thought it was implied, by him reaching his hand under the pillow when the power is cut.
Bruce's Offscreen Teleporation
- And how the hell did Bruce Wayne, with no money whatsoever, get back to Gotham City, which was LOCKED DOWN? How'd he buy a plane ticket anyways? He had to have gotten back in time to stop Bane, but the quickest ways to fly out of the Middle East are also the most expensive ways possible. Also, who says it's the Middle East? Do they actually show the location of the prison? The comic book Bane's origin story says his prison was in the Caribbean.
- It is specifically mentioned (somewhere) to be Uzbekistan (I think by one of the prisoners), though I believe it was filmed in India. And even if it isn't, its clearly not the Caribbean from the ethnicity and clothes of most of the prisoners, the vast desert surrounding the pit, the design of the fortress the warlord lived in, etc.
- Yeah this bugs me to no end too. I really thought it would eventually be a call back to Batman Begins, where Alfred would fly by and pick him up. But no, Bruce just teleports back to Gotham.
- He's Batman. That's how. Also, it's mentioned before Bruce gets back that the bomb goes off in 21 days. When he gets back, it's a day. So I guess Bruce got back using normal means and sneaked in over the ice at night. Or another way, he had twenty days to do so I guess whatever he did took a long time. Perhaps a deleted scene will clear this up.
- He spent several years travelling the Earth, with no one to tell him from Adam. He knows how to get by without money.
- Exactly - Batman is shown in many continuities to be highly resourceful and fully capable of kicking ass even when operating alone and with not a wooden nickel to his name (Batman of ZUR-EN-ARRH comes to mind). For all we know, he may have stowed on a freighter ship like in Batman Begins and then snuck in on a relief aid truck like the spec-ops did.
- Wayne is also the definition of Crazy-Prepared, and knew for years that he might one day be identified as Batman and have to go on the run. He'd probably had secret bank accounts prepared that had nothing to do with his public identity, and could be accessed via any bank in the world using the right pass-code.
- Wait, at the end of the movie it was revealed that the auto pilot on the Bat had been fixed months ago. Maybe he just called for a ride.
- It's mentioned in Batman Begins that one of Bruce Wayne's ancestors used tunnels running under Wayne Manor to smuggle escaped slaves in and out of Gotham. He could have just used those to get in. As for how he got back from wherever the prison was? There've been at least two reality shows with the premise of dropping contestants off in the middle of a strange country with no money and following them as they try to get home, generally by convincing locals to help them. If reality show contestants can do it, so can Batman.
- His frequent-flyer miles. Plus, he's Bruce Wayne, no need of ID to corroborate his identity (and right to his accumulated mileage). As for how he entered Gotham, I guess the Underground Train tunnels his family built during the Civil War. Which raises a second question...
- With his emergency resources, a simple way of making the final step of getting in might have been to get hold of a glider/microlight that won't show up on radar, but would also be useless for evacuating anyone.
- If Bruce used the tunnels to get back to Gotham why didn't he tell John Blake to use the tunnels to escape Gotham?
- It's possible that the tunnels exit into the bay, which would be very convenient for escaping the island by boat. With the river iced over, we've seen how suicidal trying to get across the ice for an untrained man is. Bruce could manage it because, as we see in one scene in Batman Begins, there is a scene where he and Ra's are fencing on thin ice.
- However wouldn't Blake and company have a better chance of surviving the blast if they were underground in case the bomb blew up Gotham?
- Honestly, probably not. As powerful as the bomb is supposed to be coupled with the fact that it's detonating at ground-level means there's a really good chance that the explosion would collapse the tunnels, condemning them to a slow, horrible death by asphyxiation or starvation if the collapse didn't kill them outright.
Throw Me a Rope
- The prisoners in the pit HAD A MASSIVE ROPE. Why didn't they use the rope to get out and then overthrow the system that put them in a hole in the ground? A system that convicts children of their parents' crimes, locks them in a pit and forgets about them... Now that sounds like a society that could use a Bane-takeover and a nuclear bomb, never mind Gotham.
- I think I'll keep my eye open on my second viewing tomorrow, but I don't think the rope goes all the way up the pit. It's just a safety rope nailed around the halfway point, so they can't just climb all the way up. In fact Bruce did throw a rope down after he escaped.
- Correct. That's also a major difference between him and Talia. Then again, I don't recall if Talia had a rope.
- Neither Bruce Wayne or Talia use a rope when they climb out the pit. The rope Wayne sends down appears to be attached to a water bucket or similar.
- Sorry, I meant the rope Bruce tossed down. I don't remember if it was there when Talia left. Then again, there was only one guy Talia would want to save.
- And a mob of enraged rape-monsters she did not want following her. Heck, if they hadn't been kicking Bane around directly beneath the opening, she'd probably have started chucking rocks down into it to kill her mother's murderers.
- Speaking of the rope. The prisoners are more or less left to their own devices, to the point where they take care of things like medicine themselves. They have access to ropes, beds, even televisions, and come and go from their cells as they please. How is it that they haven't already built a ladder or a platform and got out of there?
- After Bruce successfully climbs out of the pit, he throws an extra-long piece of rope inside. What I don't understand is how that was supposed to be helpful (even if people could then be able to climb out from the "Jumping Platform" spot instead of making that deadly leap) if he did not tie the other end of the rope onto anything?
- That extra-long rope was the one the guards use to enter the prison. It definitely was already tied to something, because they wouldn't have wanted it to fall in.
- It also begs the question of how the prisoners get supplies as they're clearly not starving. Now maybe the jailers simply throw stuff into the pit, but they can't do that for new arrivals. It might not have worked for Bruce (since he had a deadline) but why don't they simply wait until a new arrival is delivered and then try to mob the guards? It's a potentially fatal risk, but so is climbing out of the pit!
- Did anyone other than Bruce have a TV? If not, he was definitely a special case; Bane wanted him to see Gotham's downfall. And if you bring enough armed guards down into the pit, the danger of being overwhelmed goes down quite a bit (it'd be trouble, but not any more so than constructing such a prison in the first place). In the present day anyway, Bane is the one in charge, and if we assume he brings new arrivals down personally, anyone stupid or desperate enough to rush him wouldn't last long.
- It's actually be really simple to prevent; whenever you take someone new down there, you leave some guards topside. If the prisoners try to mob the people you send into the pit in an attempt to escape, the person at the top simply cuts the rope, trapping them down there and leaving them to starve.
Cops vs. Mooks
- 3,000 angry, pissed off cops. Maybe 3,000 of Bane's henchmen, and three Tumblers. ONE Tumbler gets disarmed by the Bat, NOT ALL THREE, JUST ONE, and only five cops get gunned down by Bane's henchmen before the brawl begins. LOL, wut. Also, WHY DID NONE OF THE COPS PULL OUT THEIR GUNS! THEY WERE CLEARLY ARMED AND FACING TERRORISTS! Not petty criminals, TERRORISTS! Terrorists who locked down Gotham City and turned it into a post-apocalyptic warzone. There had to have been at least SOME cops itching to shoot some of those assholes, right?!
- With regards why the police didn't open fire, think about how many of them there are. Now imagine you're there and you would probably notice you have absolutely no clear line of sight between the mooks and your buddies (unless you're in the frontline). Add to that all the chaos that's going on, it's very likely that your shots wouldn't land on your intended targets at all. This is precisely why CQC still exists to this day and why there are so many friendly fire incidents.
- But they did open fire. I imagine it just didn't work very well, because Bane's men were wearing body armour. A better question would be: Why didn't the cops exhibit more self-preservative instincts? Even ordinary cops should know how to take cover. And whatever happened to all those SWAT officers who would be better equipped and trained to deal with the situation? Also, why did the cops march in one giant, obvious, exposed column, and why didn't Bane's men open fire way before they got to the prison/courthouse? I'm just chalking it up to adrenaline on both sides so I won't get too annoyed with the film.
- Bane's crew was clearly and dramatically outnumbered during the final battle - the film implies that he has a few hundred fighters at the very best. And the cops were not armed: They'd been captives for three months, and presumably had to turn over their weapons in exchange for food and water.
- Pretty sure the cops were armed. Some of them were pointing handguns at the tumblers when they drove off to escort the truck.
- I'm surprised the 3,000 cops were in any condition to fight after five (three) months of living underground, even with food and water. And not even any rickets or anything!
- You're not the only one. The special forces soldier scoffed at the idea that they'd be of any use.
- Probably because they more or less had nothing else to lose; in their mind, either they went down fighting or a nuke took them all out.
- In that case, why bother fighting at all? Call me cynical, but I find it incredibly hard to believe that they would go directly from the tunnels to fighting the mercenaries, rather than immediately racing home to their families for a precious last few hours.
- Some probably did. Others probably decided that if you're gonna go, go out fighting.
- Three months to get really angry.
- Also, it may be just my imagination, but Batman only took out the gun, the Tumbler as a vehicle should still work, so why didn't they just run the cops over?
- Because they didn't have time. By the time they backed the Tumbler up, the cops would've reached it and started fighting the mooks.
- The Tumbler is practically a tank, it would not matter if the cops had reached it because the tank would still easily run over them.
- It was also a neat reversal of most confrontations between the police and the mob.
- The cops were also awfully clean and groomed after living underground for several months. Did they all get regular haircuts and shaves?
- I know they chose not to mention him, but for the sake of Fanon, where did The Joker go?
- I like to think the Joker was staying in his prison cell when Gotham turned into No Man's Land, mumbling to himself "this guy's doing it all wrong..."
- I would think that the Joker would be in Arkham, not Blackgate.
- Seems possible that Bane didn't liberate Arkham precisely because the Joker and his ilk are poor followers.
- Considering how Scarecrow acts as "the Judge" he was probably meant to be the Joker. About a year ago there was an interview with Christopher Nolan where he mentioned possibly having the Joker appear using a mixture of CGI and deleted scenes from the Dark Knight, but wasn't sure if Heath Ledger's family would approve. I guess they didn't.
- I really don't think that the Joker would cooperate with Bane for five seconds. Despite similar tactics, those two are polar opposites, ideologically speaking. Bane wants to "restore balance", while Joker wants to wreck shit up. I wouldn't consider it impossible that Bane might have just shot the Joker in his cell, unfortunately.
- The Joker wanted chaos, and Bane created chaos. He might even go along with the whole nuke thing since that might lead to global chaos. The fact that he and Bane wanted and set out to achieve different things is irrelevant- Batman was no different, but the Joker felt that Batman was responsible for creating chaos even if he never intended it. He probably wouldn't have been the judge, though- he would have had a bigger role, and might have even been the one to kill Bane (like the way he shot Two-Face in Dark Victory). He'd probably have the devil on Bane's shoulder, providing running commentary on the whole thing, mocking his plans (at least as far as thinking "Batman is taken care of" goes) while pushing for more extreme actions.
- I still don't see it. The Joker is not a follower for anybody, and I doubt that Bane would want an Ax-Crazy loose cannon anywhere near his complicated scheme. Joker would probably force a number of people across the bay just to see if Bane would really make good on his threat to nuke the city on the spot.
- In relation to those two, I feel that Bane would either leave the Joker locked up (assuming he was, indeed, still alive & imprisoned in Gotham), or kill him outright. Bane's more than smart enough to recognize the threat the Joker would pose to him (on an intellectual level if not a physical one, and even then, Bane knows he isn't bullet proof), and unlike Batman, would have no moral qualms about eliminating that threat.
- There is no continuity where Bane regards the Joker as a threat. In Knightfall, he had zero qualms about busting him out of prison; in No Mans Land, he pretty much kidnapped him (Joker- "Oh, this is gonna suck"). Bane would give the Joker free reign and / or keep an eye on him, but he wouldn't be averse to letting him run rampant. In the Kangaroo Court scene, Crane said that Bane had no authority there- not really true, but the court was free to do as it pleased, along with everybody else. Bane is planning to kill himself and millions of others in a nuclear holocaust- he isn't afraid of some psycho clown.
- Bane may not be afraid of Joker, but every criminal in Gotham is still freakin' terrified of the guy. Which would give Bane another motive to have the nutbar shot dead in his cell: it means that, when he marches into Blackgate to release the prisoners, he can proclaim to them that, whatever B.S. he might feed the populace about "liberating Gotham's masses", in reality it's BANE and Bane alone who calls the shots. No matter how tough, ruthless, scary or unpredictable the other criminals might consider themselves, none of them will live to regret it if they refuse to obey Bane ... and here's the Joker's decapitated head to prove it.
- On a related subject, did anybody do anything about the Scarecrow? I mean, Bane was a more serious threat, granted, but you'd think he'd have been given some closure (dying somehow maybe, or at least someone punching him out).
- We don't see it, but considering he's a fairly high-playing figure in Bane's system and considering that the worm is clearly turning at the end of the movie, it's not hard to speculate that he got a suitable comeuppance.
- There's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot of Gotham police having taken over the Scarecrow's courtroom. They have several captives kneeling with their hands on their heads, although the scene went by so fast I didn't spot whether one of them was Crane or not.
- It's entirely possible the Joker was meant to be the Judge. If nothing else it would be a funny Mythology Gag.
- I doubt the filmmakers were planning on wasting the Joker on a small bit like the courtroom scenes.
- Here's another fan theory: Joker was executed by the state for his crimes and the Dent Act waived the usual excuse present in the comics (insanity).
- With Nolan's vision of realistic Batman world is very possible that the Joker got electric chair for his actions in the "Dark Knight". The man is not only serial killer but an terrorist who blows up hospitals. It's hard to imagine a court that didn't gave him the death panelty...
- Or we could just go with the theory that the Joker was a sinister, dangerous terrorist in the post-9/11 world and was too busy locked in his cell at Guantanamo Bay to make an appearance.
- In the real world, there is no such thing as "Joker Immunity." Batman would have to spend literally all of his time keeping people from trying to kill him, assuming that he didn't give in to the temptation himself. Although the Nolanverse Joker hasn't done as many heinous things and pissed off as many varied people as the comics counterpart, I expect if Joker wasn't executed he was likely assassinated.
- So many people default to Joker Immunity for why the clown is still alive, forgetting that even without it he's still NOT easy to kill.
- "Death or Exile?" "Hang on, what kind of court lets the prisoner choose his sentence? You people are ''crazy''!"
- It's a Kangaroo Court. Besides, it's more psychologically destructive to make someone choose how they die. Kind of like punishing yourself.
- The joke is that the Joker is calling someone else crazy.
- The Joker only likes causing trouble if Batman is around. Batman wasn't around for over eight years, and once he was around again, he promptly disappeared again. Then, once he came back again, it looked like he got himself nuked. Joker is probably in a cell somewhere mumbling stuff about how it wasn't fair that he couldn't play his game with Batman again.
- Also this world's David Letterman had the good sense of not inviting him to his talk-show.
- On the other hand, the Joker really likes having Batman around — messing with the DK to see how far he'll go is, by far, the most fun he ever has — so he wouldn't think much of Bane's plan to remove his nemesis from the game altogether. In which case, the Joker might actually sabotage Bane's schemes to ensure Batman remains on the loose, free to act as well as react.
- Seeing as how Bane created an environment fueled by panic, anarchy, destruction and all around misery, it's possible the Joker just kicked back and enjoyed the show.
- Maybe during the eight years that Batman disappeared, the Joker killed himself.
- That makes sense. The Joker didn't care about his life at all. With both Two-Face and the two ferries defused, and unable to play games with the Batman forever as he was hoping (since he disappeared for eight years), the poor bastard probably cut himself to death.
- According to the novelization, the Joker is currently the sole patient at Arkham (everyone else being unable to plea insanity under the Dent Act, and thus moved to Blackgate), although he may have escaped — no one's really sure.
- I myself think that the whole plot of the movie (appart maybe for the nuke) is very Joker-ish in nature and may have been written with The Joker as the Big Bad in the first place. And then Real Life Writes the Plot and he has been replaced early on by Bane, who do fit really well and enabled the possibility of closing the League of Shadows related plotlines.
- Maybe he didn't use enough hand sanitizer coming out of Gotham Central Hospital and caught some disease.
- Joker is (pun fully intended) the ultimate wild card. Whether his goals align with another villain's or not, he could still turn on them at any moment for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
- I like to imagine that one of Bane's goons found the Joker and straight up shot him in the head, Possibly on Bane or Talia's orders, simply because he was such a threat, and Bane and Talia couldn't have a crazy madman changing or ruining their plans.
- So wait. After the climax, Batman is presumed dead and Bruce's will is left to various things. When did he set this up? After coming back to Gotham, before he got ready for the final battle? If so, it seems weird that he would trust Blake with the entire freaking Batcave given that Blake hadn't truly proven his worth until the final battle. And on a side note, how is Blake going to live up to the mantle without any prior training? He's a cop, not a martial artist/stealth agent like Bruce.
- For now, I'm gonna justify that first thing with the clean slate (specifically, some unknown function Bruce uses to alter his will before the authorities get around to collecting it. As for the side note, Blake had some pretty badass disarms, and he has all the time in the world to grow into the role in full, assuming the bad guys lay low for a while after their city was nearly blown up.
- The only significant changes to the will that we see is that heirlooms from the house are sold off to cover any existing debt, and the estate is given to Gotham to be used as a home for at-risk youth. Considering these developments occur early in the movie, it wouldn't be hard for Bruce to revise his will once he decided to be Batman again. The debt part of the will could put the rewrite after he goes broke, but it also could have been a standard "in case of" clause in his original will. Bruce could have written the note to Robin about the Batcave around the same time and it would have been less about finding a suitably skilled replacement and more about finding a kindred spirit. Not being a ninja, Robin would definitely be a different sort of caped crusader, of course, but we may never know what type...
- It was specifically mentioned that the will hadn't been updated to account for his "more modest assets"; i.e., he changed it before he lost everything. Apparently Alfred was right and he was a Death Seeker up until the end.
- It could be that he did update the will, but only after faking his death, and thus in secret. It's a clue that he's still alive (that Blake seems to pick up on).
- It's also possible (probable even, given who we're dealing with) that Bruce didn't just leave him the cave. Bruce probably left him with intricately-detailed workout regimens, required readings in the form of war journals and case logs and a network of contacts for everything from tech wizards and martial arts/other skills trainers needed to turn Blake into a proper Batman. Probably left Blake with untraceable bank accounts and all that good stuff, too.
- This is pure WMG. Bruce's "tech wizards" was one man at Wayne Enterprises and his "martial arts/other skill trainers" was Ra's al Ghul, who is dead. The Bruce we saw in the film had no network of contacts, and at no point are we given evidence of untraceable bank accounts (we are, however, given evidence to the contrary when discussing how to purchase Bat tech without drawing attention in Begins). This Batman is not the Batman you think we are dealing with.
- Er nope. Bruce had had sufficient training before he ever met Ra's, evidenced by the prison fight. In fact when he picks the blue flower and brings it to the League of Shadows, Ra's calls out about half a dozen martial arts that Bruce knew as Ra's kicked his ass. There was also the skyhook, the suits, explosives, computer systems and the like that Fox didn't build all of. Fox and Ras were his best options they weren't his only options. That's no WMG.
The Magic Thumb Drive
- This is only a minor thing, but how is the clean slate supposed to work? Considering Batman hands Selina something that looks like a pen drive, it looks like it's supposed to be a virus that will wipe out the computer records of its target. But that doesn't account for the paper record, esp. when Blake is holding Selina's paper file when he catches her.
- Maybe Selina, being who she is, can deal with the paper record herself. But without the expertise she cannot overcome the fact that "a 12 year old can go to Google and find out your whole past".
- The truth is that paper records are relatively meaningless without computer records when you consider national and international movement. Before the days of accessible national databases, for example, it was not particularly hard to move to a different state and start a completely new life if you had to. This was because there was no accessible record of who you were unless someone knew where you had been.
- A girl ran away from home, and authorities couldn't find her, leaving her mother distraught. She turned out to be working as a waitress in the very next state, though I can't find the specific story.
- The simple way for a computer virus to eliminate hard copy trails is for the virus to also issue computer memos for the hard copy files to be destroyed.
- Where does Bane carry the supply of gas that his mask constantly pumps into him? We've seen him shirtless many times, and there never was a tube connecting to his mask, or anything.
- It's a filter?
- I assume it's integrated into the mask somehow, so no smart-Alec can pull on the conspicuous tubes coming out of the mask. That, or the thing on his back is a subcutaneous tube running down to the supply in his "weight belt". Wait, that actually makes sense.
- There's probably no gas, but some sort of powder dispenser inside the mask that lasts for the whole day or more.
- Word of God stated that it supplies him with knock out gas to keep him from feeling the pain. Also, when Batman broke the pipes on his face, you hear hissing.
[[folder: Somebody Set Up Us The Bomb]]
- Going along with "How did Bruce Wayne get back to lock-down Gotham", I have to ask how he knew the bomb was due to go off in one day. Even if Bane casually mentioned that the fusion reactor had a half-life of five months (I do not recall him doing so, by the way) there is no way Bruce would happen to know how long it had. In fact it bugged me that the moment the reactor was reclassified as a time-bomb by the plot EVERYONE knew how long it had left to blow. The secrecy of the bomb's nature was integral to Bane's plan and the reason why the bridge police did not let Blake and the orphans cross.
- As far as I can gather, Bruce Wayne built that thing, and he knew about Dr. Pavel's report about re-purposing it into a bomb. So he probably can figure out the time it has left when he saw the stadium attack on TV. As for how everyone knew when the bomb is going off, I guess Blake told them. (Everyone relevant to the plot, at least.)
- The problem is how did they know exactly (or close enough, some tropers have suggested the timer is and estimate but if it was it was damn close) when the bomb would go off? I'll admit I'm not an expert on nuclear reactions so maybe they are unique but most things that become increasingly unstable do just that. They become unstable. It might break today, tomorrow, next week, next month or next year. You can't chart on a calendar when exactly it's going to happen because that's the nature of something being unstable.
A Bridge Over Troubled Waters
- Why can't the prisoners in the pit make a bridge across the gap instead of jumping? It's not like they don't have enough time to make something like this. Bruce was able to carry some supplies on his back while climbing, couldn't he have strapped on a wooden plank as well? Or even have more than one person go up at once to help each other.
- The nature of the mythos is that they jump. Alone. So the prisoners jump. Alone. It's psychology, not physics. The pit is as much a prison of the mind as anywhere else. By escaping, Bruce became a symbol. And by turning back to throw the rope down, he became a reality.
- Eh, the psychology isn't that strong. It's not like the prison is populated by religious fanatics who believe it would be sinful to build a plank across the gap. They're just a bunch of guys who desperately want to escape. They may get stuck on the "climb alone" concept for awhile, but eventually someone is going to get creative. Then pretty soon you'll have everyone thinking the same way, trying to engineer a way to get out rather than simply climbing. But the movie ignores all this, because it would really mess with the symbolism.
- And the rope is too short. The reason the only people who escaped did so without the rope is because the rope is too short to allow them to make the jump.
- If the rope were too short, Bruce Wayne of all people would notice his jump being impaired by it—if not the first time, then definitely the second. So it really is just the psychology of the jump.
- With the rope, the jumper feels a bit 'safe' and subconsciously holds back, but with the fear of death, they'll give their all to make the jump.
- Also, ropes are heavy. A long, thick rope like that one? Bruce made the jump with a little food and water, not fifty pounds of rope.
- You guys are focusing on the rope and not what the OP was asking, which was why didn't one of the prisoners who was trying to escape just bring up something like a plank to act like a makeshift bridge to cross the gap. My opinion is that as far as I observe in the background of the prison, there were cloths and rags and mattresses, piles of stone slabs and metal rods, but nothing that resembles a wooden plank basis. Stone slabs would be too heavy for the prisoner to even be lifted off the ground, and metal rods would be too unstable to act as a bridge. Also, the pit is cylindrical; given that the space for even standing is very little, it would be extremely difficult to place a straight bridge across a curved gap and have it at all stable.
- The gap is far enough that it is essentially impossible for a human to jump that far. Maybe six to eight feet? It would be quite impressive for someone to climb a thirty-foot rock wall while carrying a plank longer than they are tall and thick enough to support a man's weight. Additionally, said plank would be almost as difficult to maneuver while balancing on a narrow ledge. Try holding a plank of that size by one end while balancing on a ledge. As for how the child and Bruce both escaped, a human body has natural limits imposed, so that it doesn't destroy itself. In life-or-death situations, such as jumping off a ledge with no rope for safety, the adrenaline rush causes your body to override those limits. What the man in the prison said about fear? That wasn't him being all Obi-Wan, that was the actual physical explanation.
Bane and Talia, Death Seekers
- Did Bane and Talia plan on dying when the bomb went off? They were clearly in the radius of the explosion when Talia fails to make the detonator work.
- Yep; they were fanatics, and had no plan on continuing after bringing Gotham down.
- How on Earth were all (or even most) of the cops trapped in the tunnels? Even if they were crazy enough to send literally everyone they had, what about the off-duty cops? Being a cop is a 24/7 job, so most cops aren't on duty at any one time.
- It's mentioned at one point how Bane's men are hunting cops on the streets like dogs. We even see a couple of uniformed officers around after the bombs exploded. Not to mention all the people that Gordon recruits during the siege, implicitly mostly police. Not all the cops were down in the tunnels, but all the special forces were. And when the bulk of their numbers are gone, with no help arriving, and hundreds of fanatic paramilitaries along with thousands of converted citizens to deal with, they are hopelessly outnumbered, and most either get taken down on their own or choose to lay low.
- The cops were also being targeted, not because they were trained and a threat to Bane's plans, but because they were a symbol of the government. Punishing them for being seen as heroes and upholders of justice, when really Bane and his men see them as blind followers.
- Any mass uprising by the cops who weren't imprisoned would probably have caused Bane's men to blow out some more walls in the tunnels and drown their fellow-officers via the water mains. It wasn't worth risking the 3000 hostages' deaths until they knew for sure the bomb was going to blow.
Bane's Master Plan
- In a city with millions of people, someone would have made a run for it. (Sure, it's an island, but people have boats/helicopters.) When, inevitably, someone succeeds in escaping, what is Bane gonna do? Blow up the city? So much for his master plan, if he obviously has to blow it up six hours after taking over. Do nothing? Then why is his threat credible, especially once the media finds out?
- I'd wager the outside authorities & media would be pretty keen to keep any escapees there were under wraps, so as not to give Bane an excuse to set off the bomb.
- Yes, Bane would blow up the city, that's the whole end goal anyway. He'd prefer to wait and watch the city destroy itself first, but he doesn't seem the sort to mind being ahead of schedule.
- It would be pretty hard to live with yourself if you were the one person who escaped from Gotham in your secret boat...and then Bane blew it sky high behind you. Self-preservation is one thing, but humans are built to think for the greater good. Not to mention that any average citizen would have to be pretty cowed by Bane's tactics; the guy showed up from nowhere, took over the city in a very short time period, and displaced all government agencies, even going so far as to convince the Military to help him keep people in. His hooligans are armed and roaming the streets and hunting cops. As, what, some middle-class citizen with a boat? Yeah, you're not going to try to make a run for it. No way.
- Especially since the boundary created by the blown bridges lay within the six-mile radius that the blast would cover, so the ones who crossed it wouldn't get out of range anyway.
Bombing the bomb
- If they know that the bomb is being carried in a truck, why not get a bunch of fighter planes, and blow up all the trucks simultaneously? Sure, it may cause a few casualties, but that's way better than losing the whole city.
- Let's think about your logic there for a moment ... Blowing up all the trucks patrolling the city, with the bomb being transported in one of the trucks, would certainly activate the bomb, therefore destroying Gotham. Secondly, any outside interference by the government would lead Bane setting the bomb off early as specified at the football match. Either way, you appear to have no Gotham by the end of the equation.
- But that's not the way nuclear bombs work. A nuclear bomb is not like some lump of explosives that can go off if set on fire, there's actually a very precise series of events that need to transpire inside the bomb in a specific order in order for it to initiate. Damaging the casing in any significant way would probably just leave Bane with an expensive hunk of radioactive metal.
- Consider also that while the bomb is being carried in a truck, those trucks are driving around inside a major metropolitan area. You essentially got skyline in the way of a rapid air strike. Add to that the fact that you need to hit all three trucks to be certain, and that if you don't do it fast enough you risk having the bomb detonated by the trigger-man. If they knew the bomb was going to go off regardless, they might have tried it in the final hours, but they were only aware that it was being used as a deterrent, not as a time bomb.
- The only people who can visually confirm that the bomb is being rolled around the city are Gordon's men. The Special Ops guy even says that they can't locate it via satellite. For all the military know, Bane lied, the trucks are a decoy, and blowing them up will only cause Bane to detonate the real bomb, stashed somewhere out of view.
- Probably for fear of setting the bomb off.
- Bane mentioned that he'd set it off if the outside world interfered, seeing a fighter plane might be taken as 'interfering'
- The outside world had no way of knowing the bomb was on those trucks and the police inside the city ha no way of alerting them (one has to assume cell phones are down, etc). The audience is only informed at the same time the Special Forces are, and it took the resistance some effort to figure out that much as well as the routes.
You Fail Economics Forever
- Stock markets do not work like that. Even if Bruce Wayne "made" a bunch of really bad trades, no one can just force him to pay immediately unless his money is already held by the brokerage he owes (and a lot of it obviously wouldn't be). They can sue, of course, but then it would get tied up in court for years.
- Lucius Fox said they'd be able to prove fraud but it would probably be years. I imagine that, since Lucius Fox and the other investors will be affected even if Bruce doesn't care, they will prove fraud.
- Given that the fraud would have been proved eventually, one has to wonder how Daggett planned to keep his crime a secret after taking over Wayne Enterprises.
- I think this is almost exactly how Rocky lost his fortune in Rocky V. They even made a similar claim that it can probably be proved fraud in the long run.
- Stock market trading doesn't work that way, but futures trading does, and that's what the movie says they were doing. Remember Trading Places? That was based on a real life case; two wealthy twins tried to corner the silver market and wiped out their family fortune in one day.
- You would think they would consider the stock exchange closed at that point and roll back everything that happened during the attack. If that happened IRL it would probably be second in severity only to 9/11.
- I can't think of a legal system in the world that would uphold any trades made after terrorists shot up the stock exchange and plugged into the main computer in front of hundreds of hostages.
- This article goes into some detail about the problems with Bane's plan (read the comments section at the bottom for the real meat of this). Suffice to say, the fact that the stock exchange probably wouldn't count business conducted during a terrorist attack- especially one that left someone bankrupt- isn't the only problem with that idea. Although, indeed, the fact that fraud would have been proved "eventually" is one of those problems- it would have been proved instantly, had the Real Life Bane been stupid enough to try something like this. Even if he didn't stage a terrorist attack in a counterproductive way to conceal his crime, fraud that costs a millionaire absolutely everything is so obviously fraud that nobody would by it or waste time trying to prove it "eventually" rather than "immediately".
- How did the Bat survive the nuclear blast? It's clearly the same one that Batman piloted since the Wayne Enterprises technician said the autopilot was fixed on it.
- It could be a copy Bat that just had the same fix that Bruce made.
- Correct. Maybe Bruce even patched it in specifically so Lucius would know, and it could be used for future pilots.
- He'd probably tested his software patch on the one he wasn't using, before he tried it on the black Bat.
- Except it's a camo colour, so it ISN'T the same one that Batman was piloting.
- Since it was a software patch, he wouldn't have been working on the machine itself anyway, just sitting at his computer and then uploading the new firmware to the maintenance system for all of the Bat vehicles.
- Ra's al Ghul wanted to destroy Gotham because of its corruption. Why does Bane want to destroy Gotham? The Dent Act had already ended all the corruption in the city. He clearly isn't doing it to "give the city back to the people", either, since "the people" will be killed along with everybody else by the fusion bomb.
- They're honoring Ra's Al Ghul with no real care to what he would actually have wanted. Ra's Al Ghul was insane in his own way, though.
- Not insane, just dogmatic. And from Bane's perspective (or Talia's), Gotham is as corrupt as ever because the only peace it could ever achieve had to be based on corruption (Gordon's lie).
- Corruption clearly hadn't ended. The Dent Act just took out the mafia.
- It's clear that Bane and Talia consider the Dent Act corrupt in itself, since it was nothing but a conspiracy and a lie.
- But the film seems to suggest they only found out that the Dent Act was a lie after taking Gordon's speech from him. Their plan was in motion long before that.
- Either the League of Shadows has a different idea of what constitutes the corruption of civilization, or Talia and Bane care less about Ra's reasons for wanting to destroy Gotham and more about the fact that he died trying to accomplish it.
- I, personally, am a little confused as to why they felt the need to destroy Gotham at all, even for these reasons. Talia didn't care enough about Ra's to stick around, but enough to avenge him anyway? Please quell my confusion.
- "I didn't care for my father... until you murdered him." Neither Talia nor Bane is doing any of this for the sake of the League of Shadows or to make a statement about Western civilization. They're destroying Gotham to make Bruce suffer. No more and no less. Every time they say they'll fulfill Ra's Al-Ghul's destiny it's just to convince Bruce that, in the end, he failed to stop Ra's.
- I think part of it also has to deal with the notion that the upper class in Gotham are really selfish and indulgent. Corruption extends beyond just the law system, into Moral Corruption, which Gotham seems to have plenty of still.
- That's correct. In the first film, Ras mentions that one of the many cities the League of Shadows destroyed was Rome, which was infamous for having a corrupt ruling class. The post-mafia Gotham elite weren't guilty of letting the mob fun free, but in Talia and Bane's eyes, they certainly were guilty of hoarding their wealth for themselves.
- Also keep in mind that the upper class is proven to be capable of corporate corruption. Daggett did, after all, hire Bane under the pretense that the whole plan was about monopolizing the city's financial cornerstones.
- Bruce's hallucination of Ra's also mentions that despite Bruce believing he could save Gotham, "the only victory you achieved was a lie." Thus, Gotham may have changed in terms of power, but it is still seen from that point-of-view as diseased land that must be destroyed in order to bring back balance ("When a forest grows too wild, a purging fire is inevitable and natural", as Ra's says in Begins).
- So John Blake has inherited the Batcave. But he isn't a billionaire, and Wayne Enterprises is broke, so Lucius Fox won't be able to support him as Nightwing/Robin even if he asked him to.
- Wayne Enterprises isn't broke, it was doing poorly. Bruce Wayne was broke, he is not the only shareholder in the company.
- Also, Bruce had to order thousands of copies of each piece of the suit to avoid detection, and probably lots of the other equipment, too. There are backups.
- Related headscratcher: Blake doesn't have the League of Shadows training that Bruce has, so how could he possibly live up to Batman's legacy?
- Blake may not be an uber-ninja, but he's definitely street-smart and is a trained police officer. Cops generally have to have some form of basic hand-to-hand training in order to do his job properly. Furthermore, this training that Blake undoubtedly has can be expanded upon through further training and expansion of his knowledge.
- Another related headscratcher: Where in the world is Blake going to live from now on and is he going to have a secret identity or is he going to be Batman 24/7?
- He can always go hook up with Gordon's daughter, currently residing in Cleveland. In fact he already have a very valuable skill - moving around a heavily guarded city without getting caught (almost). Also he is a very good detective.
- How about he works at the orphanage Wayne Manor has been turned into? It gives him a good excuse to be in the area often, a steady job, and he can get to know Alfred, all while working in an environment he'd be familiar with and probably enjoy working in. He could train in the caves, probably get a connection to Fox/Wayne Enterprises via knowing Alfred, and might even be offered a place to stay in the Manor. All totally guesswork, but it just seems like it would be the best fit.
- As said above: It's also possible (probable even, given who we're dealing with) that Bruce didn't just leave him the cave. Bruce probably left him with intricately-detailed workout regimens, required readings in the form of war journals and case logs and a network of contacts for everything from tech wizards and martial arts/other skills trainers needed to turn Blake into a proper Batman. Probably left Blake with untraceable bank accounts and all that good stuff, too. And Blake has the clean slate to erase his identity in a time when scads of Gotham's population are dead or missing. And Blake was just an ordinary GCPD detective.
- See above, re: this Batman is not the Batman you think it is.
- Importantly, bear in mind that Wayne Enterprises would likely get back a large portion of the money that Bane rigged to make it look like Bruce had been speculating poorly on the stock market. Lucius notes early on that it's obvious this isn't something Bruce has done and that fraud can be handled, but Bane strikes before they can get to the bottom of the matter.
Don't Break the Ice
- I can understand why the normal citizens of Gotham can't cross the ice, but shouldn't police - the people who usually do a lot of rescuing and are the first responders in situations - know that the way to cross ice is to spread out your body weight by lying flat and sliding, instead of concentrating it all on your feet by walking upright?
- Weren't they handcuffed? (plus scared out of their mind anyway)
- I'm pretty sure Gordon and his men weren't handcuffed. He was able to bend down and pick up the flare, remember?
- I'm pretty sure that the first time it was done, the henchman made it clear to Stryver that if he tried anything that might actually work, they'd just shoot him.
- No, he said that if he tried to swim, he'd be dead in minutes. Not because they'd shoot him, but because he'd freeze to death.
- Note that in Gordon's case, he was sentenced to "death by exile". So he probably would have gotten shot anyways if he made it too far.
- This may seem stupid but was Bane a prisoner or a guard? In the flashback his outfit did not match what the prisoners wore when Bruce was there and it's referred to as a guard on the main page.
- I was under the impression that there is actually no guard in the pit. The old man told Bruce that "This is Bane's prison now" probably implies that after the League of Shadows took over the pit, they put Bane in charge. Also Bane does wear the same clothing of the other prisoners. The only distinction between them and Talia is that she did not cover her face.
Bruce's Magic Vision
- So, Bruce knows that Ra's al Ghul is the soldier whose wife ended up in the prison because of a hallucination. What?
- He knows the following: a. Someone who was born in the prison was strongly connected to Ra's al Ghul. b. That someone's mother was put there because of an affair with a mercenary. c. Ra's al Ghul lost his wife to tragic circumstances. He just put two and two together.
- It's like how Britt Reid unfurled Scanlon's plot in the Green Hornet movie by having a mental conversation with his dead dad. It's just his thought process.
- His subconscious mind made the logic jump using the pieces of information it had present, and the hallucination of Ra's was formed based on that logic jump.
- How exactly did Bane break Batman's back? Batman was heavily armored, and Bane's knee was just a fleshy knee. And since he wasn't a huge, mutated muscle monster like in the comics, and was more or less the same size as Bruce, his leg should have broken in two.
- Batman isn't as heavily armored as he looks; Fox specifically mentioned that the tradeoff for flexibility in his new suit meant it was less durable. Also, Bane's knee is a focal point for pressure, where as Batman's back is segmented and spread out; the knee is what will be doing the damage there. And even if Bane isn't as hulking as he is in the comics, he's still an extremely well muscled individual, moreso than even Batman during his peak. Also, most importantly, Batman's back isn't broken, he just has a dislocated vertebrae.
- Furthermore, recall the final brawl between Batman and Bane on the stairs of the city hall: Bane is, during the fight, easily capable of smashing through concrete columns with his bare fists. Bane's raw brute strength is very much real, so it's not illogical to think that even through Batman's armor, he could still damage the body inside it.
- Forget about the armor. There is no way Batman should have lost that fight — in Dark Knight, he has the pneumatic mangler, which enables him to bend gun barrels and tear sheet metal. In TDKR, he has powered leg braces that let him kick through brick walls. Bane may feel no pain, but unless he has hyper-alloy endoskeleton, Batman should have crushed and snapped many of his bones. (Unlike the work that the movie mostly draws inspiration from, where Batman must prove himself stronger in front of the Mutant gang, Batman has no reason to fight fair here, especially once Bane broke into the armory.)
- Batman was only seen using the pneumatic mangler in his very first scene of TDK, in which he's using his older, more sturdy Batsuit that also curtailed his strength a bit thanks to its rigidity, hence why he went for the more maneuverable Batsuit of TDK and TDKR, which allowed him to use the full extent of his strength and flexibility. Furthermore, while his brace allowed him to kick through brick, we only see him using it for that once, which looked to me more like he was showcasing just how powerful it was so he could show Alfred that he had a means of making his worn-out joints still work like they did in his prime, to an extent. I doubt he had it on that setting the whole time, as that sort of force would probably snap his leg in two pretty quickly.
- By the point at which Bane showed himself breaking into the armory, Batman was already beaten so there was not much that could be done there. Batman went into his first fight unprepared and without certain pieces of information. He didn't know that the mask had any kind of pain-killing function. For all he knew, it was just a mask. He's also not at his physical peak anymore, after having only got back into the game very recently. What was his "pneumatic manger" going to do? Rip off Bane's hand in the fight so Batman makes him bleed to death? Bane isn't letting him get any major hits on that will totally snap him. He allows Batman a few free hits at the beginning, to make Batman think they're having no effect and have him lose morale. Bane will be getting injured, he's just not feeling it and he's far stronger than Bruce is at this point. It's not until Batman comes back, in a good physical and moral/psychological condition, and with knowledge of needing to take the mask out, that he's in an a position of advantage.
Bane and Talia's Relationship
- The problematic assumption that a man and a woman cannot care for each other platonically coloring a lot of the Talia and Bane discussion makes me scratch my head. If they were lovers, wouldn't the moment when Talia very specifically calls Bane "my friend" have been the perfect opportunity for a twisted Mythology Gag where she finally calls someone who isn't Batman 'beloved'? Especially when we have an established example of a older (British) man caring for a young child without any parents and loving that child above all else: Bane isn't Talia's boyfriend, he's her Alfred.
- I thought I'd misheard the explanation (there were two "Twilight Girls" behind me who kept talking whenever Batman was offscreen). I mean, I've heard of May-December Romance, but, guys, Bane was an adult when he looked after little Talia. If, after that, he loved her as anything but a daughter, that wouldn't that just be a bit awkward?
- Their relationship could have eventually evolved from child/guardian to romantic over the years. Say Bane was 20 and Talia was 11. Not cool. But fast-forward ten years— Bane is 30, and Talia is 21. Nothing wrong with that.
- Talia specifically says that the reason that Ra's kicked Bane out of the League of Shadows was because Bane loved Talia.It frankly does not make sense that Ra's would be that upset over that if we were talking about a platonic devotion. If anything, Ra's would have seen that as a good thing.
- Didn't Talia specifically say before that Bane was a constant reminder of how Ra's had been unable to protect his wife and child? I'd argue that a platonic devotion would definitely agitate that: Bane was the father to her that Ra's couldn't be. When Talia would look at Bane, she'd see a protector, a guide, everything a father should be. Looking at Ra's, she'd see at best the man who runs the League of Shadows and at worst the man who abandoned her and her mother to the Pit. They're evil counterparts of Bruce and Alfred, so put it in Wayne terms: imagine Thomas was neglectful, only to find that (in his absence) Bruce had grown to consider Alfred his father. Even a good man would be wounded and Ra's... wasn't.
- I think it's worth pointing out that neither Bane or Talia are very psychologically healthy people. Awkward and problematic to us non-villains, yeah, but to them—who knows?
- Villains are people too, with human emotions, human motivations, human desires, etc. "They're villains" is not, and never shall be, an acceptable justification for anything.
- Why did Bane go through with the whole "people's revolution" when he had the bomb if he was just going to detonate it anyway?
- Two reasons: 1) he wanted the people of Gotham City to be seen as having devoured each other as a message to the rest of the world and 2) Talia wanted to make the man who killed her father suffer as much as she possibly could. Part of the scene where that was spelled out is in the trailer - "Your punishment must be more severe."
- This is rather specifically explained: Bane was giving the same treatment to the people of Gotham that the people of the Pit endured: They could see the exit, they knew it existed, but they could not reach it. He was doing the cruelest thing of all: giving them false hope. He was showing them that if they just abided by his rules, did what he told them they should do, then the bomb wouldn't go off. That's the hope. The fact that the bomb would kill them all anyway was the false hope: by making them believe that there WAS a way out, when in fact there was NOT, he was inflicting terrible mental torture, making the people suffer even though they didn't know it.
- Also, if he hadn't fed them some kind of story that at least suggests the bomb won't go off if they comply with his demands, the whole population would've tried to flee and/or attack the League forces en masse, no matter what threats he might pronounce. Pretending it's a revolution and not a slow buildup to annihilation was just an excuse to draw things out for the news cameras.
More Tunnel Cops
- Why, oh why, did they send in such a mass amount of cops into the tunnels? And why in that formation? They were walking shoulder-to-shoulder in an enclosed space. Even if there hadn't been such a well-timed ambush, just how were they planning to fight stacked like a bunch of sardines? Hollywood Tactics?
- We were told that the tunnel network was enormous, and they didn't have any idea exactly where Bane's men had their base, and how far they were spread up. The forces would have thinned out considerably as they spread scouting into different tunnels until they found what they were looking for.
- It's even worse at the end when the cops approach Bane's army in a packed mob. Bane could have lobbed a couple of mortars (or even grenades!) and taken out most of the cops.
Talia and Bruce, Sitting in a Tree
- What is Talia's goal in having a romance with Bruce? She goes as far as to suggest they run away together. By that point she owns the company and hence I wonder why she would even bother if she was just going to do away with him later.
- To make the "slow knife" all the more painful for him, I'd guess. And judging by his agonized facial expression when she does it, it worked.
- But Bruce would never have known the painful truth about Tate unless he had escaped and hence ruined the plan, hence any romance would have had to be for different reasons.
- I saw it more as Mythology Gag - any doubts I knew about her identity were dispelled during that scene. In-universe, I see it as a combination of twisting the knife (part of Bruce's torture is knowing his lover is trapped in Gotham) and being Crazy Prepared (deflecting any possible suspicions about the identity of the holder of the trigger and getting close to Bruce Wayne in case they needed extra emotional leverage - and it worked, since Bane knew he would try to locate her when he came back).
- I had assumed that Talia had intended to escape Gotham before the nuke went off and kill Bruce in the prison. When it was clear Batman had returned, they nixed that plan.
- The "run away together" thing was a ruse. If he had accepted, Talia would've probably delivered him straight to Bane, just like Selina did, except that Bruce would've been suitless and unprepared.
- It was purposely to get closer to him as well as to give him hope. Also, by Talia portraying a love interest (and a seemingly more "available" choice than Selina at the time), it gave Bruce the idea that he could possibly move on from Rachel and perhaps start a new life with her (e.g. "I won't forget you, Miranda").
Born in the Dark
- How was Bane so good at seeing Batman in the dark, which he claims is because he was born in it, when it's so light in the prison? The hole's so big that during the day there's plenty of light.
- He's being metaphorical. The darkness is a state of mind. He was born in the darkness, namely in a place of evil and despair, and when he got into the light, the world of the normal people, it blinded him; he couldn't fit in. Of course it's unclear whether he actually was born in the prison or not, considering that the backstory was Talia's, not his, but it still works because he wouldn't have been born to a nice place, regardless of how he ended up in the prison. Anyway, he is just being poetic, and he can fight in the dark as well as Batman because he was trained in the League of friggin' Shadows.
- Also, it's a clue to the fact that Bane isn't really the child who escaped.
- It could technically be true as well, the man he was, who was a good man who saved a child died there, and the injuries he received and her coming back for him was the moment 'Bane' was created.
- So, philosophical darkness allows him to physically see in the dark well enough to catch Batman sneaking up on him?
- No, training in the League of Shadows does. What Bane is saying is that as badass as Batman is, he can never be as good as him because he's ultimately just pretending to be a creature of darkness, while Bane is the real deal.
- I got the impression that Bane was born and raised in a different prison. His musing on the pit he threw Bruce into made it sound like he had experienced multiple similar prisons. So he was raised in a mostly dark pit, then ended up in the bright one somehow, and noted how the false hope of the sunlight was much more effective than the total darkness he was raised in.
- I assumed that Bane was referring to how he was "born" as Bane, rather than given birth to: still trapped in the prison, knowing he'd failed to protect Talia's mother and uncertain if Talia herself had survived to reach safety, deprived of the child's affection that'd made his own captivity bearable, abused by resentful fellow-prisoners, in constant physical agony, and denied even a glimpse of light because of the bandages swathing his mutilated face. Who can even blame the guy for wanting to bury his old identity, becoming someone new, strong, and imperviously Badass, under those circumstances?
No More Supervillains?
- This one is more of a general story thing, but in the 8 years after the Joker's capture no other villains appeared? And Joker and Scarecrow never managed to get out again? No Riddler, Penguin, Hush, or Hugo Strange? No equivalent of Clayface, Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, or Mr. Freeze? I think it's the writers who held the Idiot Ball on this one. They have to explain how a guy is far more injured 8 years after we last saw him than he should be, and they need to explain what he's done for 8 years, and the guy's known for having a variety of colorful enemies, and what happens? None of them appear or break out (yet), and he just sat around on his butt letting the costume collect dust while his injuries were somehow worse. (And also, if he's been sitting around because his knees are so bad he can't walk, why isn't he fatter?)
- Er, this answer to these are pretty simple. It's not the comic book universe. Villains don't just show up in Gotham like clockwork (except for Joker). The eight years have been spent getting rid of basic crime while Bruce wastes away (he wouldn't get fat, he's become a recluse, not a slouch: he has an archery range in his room). In this universe, he's not known for a variety of colorful enemies at all, and eight years without a costumed villain actually lends some credibility to the world they've set up. Finally, the injuries, I would imagine, are a mix of crimefighting wear and tear, damage from his fall at the end of The Dark Knight, and perhaps his crippling psychological damage.
- At the end of Batman Begins it pretty much states that such eccentric villains are as a result of Batman (escalation). So no Batman, or much major crime, wouldn't leave for much opportunity for colorful villains to come about in such a reality grounded universe.
- Also, Killer Croc showed up before the Joker did, if one takes Gotham Knights as canon.
- Why does everyone seem to believe that Batman retired after the second film? It's only stated in the movie that that was the last "confirmed" sighting- suggesting there were rumored ones.
- Because everything else in the movie about Bruce's condition pretty much spells out that he has not been Batmanning for a good long time? You know, him being out of shape, his knee being destroyed, Alfred outright saying that it's been years since he put on the suit?
Why John Blake?
- Why the name change from Dick Grayson?
- Simply a practical one. There's no simple way to hide a full name from the audience, plus the reveal would not have been as generally recognizable. Interestingly "John Blake" and "Tim Drake" do at least rhyme...
- Because he isn't Dick Grayson and was never supposed to be Dick Grayson. He's an amalgamation of all Robins past (and arguably, Terry McGinnis). General audience also would have no idea who Dick Grayson is, so it would be less of a Wham Line to them.
- The name comes from a really old comic strip where the Joker stole a boy's report card, it's a small Mythology Gag to hide his identity for the big reveal at the end.
- However why would the lady clerk need to know his first name in the first place, everything in documents are sorted by last names.
- Presumably, even if they're sorted by last name, the first and middle names are still there.
- And they'd be there and she might need to know them in case of the hugely unlikely scenario that, in a city with a population in the millions, there happen to be two people in those files with the last name 'Blake' and (or) first name 'John'.
- Can someone explain the timeframe of Batman's "return" to me? The Stock Exchange opened for business in the morning. Minutes later, it's stormed by Bane. Then Bane and his men escape, and after they leave the tunnel it's already nighttime (and only eight minutes passed, even the application's upload bar says so.) Then he goes to help Selina, only a few minutes after escaping the police. When Bruce returns to the cave, and has his falling-out with Alfred, it's morning again! And it's not like Bruce stopped by the grocery store or took the scenic route coming back, since he had smoking-hot evidence that needed to be traced ASAP. Even if it was an evening shift at the Stock Exchange, that was a half hour-long night.
- You're assuming that Bruce's search for and finding Selina was that short.
- Selina watches live news coverage about the police chase while cracking Daggett's safe. She opens the safe and sees it empty (which should've taken her a minute, otherwise what kind of cat burglar is she?) Daggett comes into the room almost immediately afterwards. She attacks and absconds with him. Once on the rooftop, it is maybe one or two minutes tops and Batman is already sitting there.
- Daggett doesn't come into the room immediately afterwards. There is a scene just before he gets jumped by Selina where his Dragon relays Bane's message to not worry about his men being caught, so the heist is comfortably finished with. This could have been several hours after the heist, it seemed to me that Selina had simply been waiting in hiding until Daggett let his guard down and left himself open to some "alone time".
- That makes it worse. If Selina waited "hours" for Daggett, then Batman, right after flying away from the police, decides that the best use of his time is to wait for hours as well so he can find her —-all while sitting on the "smoking hot evidence" mentioned above?
- Having watched the scene again, the sun is setting just before the robbery goes down, it is getting progressively dimmer as the cops were setting up outside, and the street lights are coming on as the chase began. It doesn't get really dark until after they get out of the tunnel.
Mugging a Monster
- So, back when Bane was in the pit, why'd the other prisoners attack him to begin with? When Bruce goes in, they all seem decently supportive, giving him advice and healing his back. They're a bit rough around the edges, but they're not vicious. They even gather and chant support every time someone tries to climb out. I realize Bane was likely dealing with an entirely different populace, since it was so long ago, but then the head-scratcher becomes how convenient it is for Bane to get the brutes and Bruce to get the doctors.
- Bane killed the brutes, and left the doctors. The League of Shadows came to the Pit to basically clean it out, but when they got there it was just Bane and the prisoners/doctor who helped him.
- Where do you think Bane got the beginnings of his army from? Anyone not killed by the League of Shadows and able to fight was most likely taken with him.
- The prison was under Bane's control. He ordered the people to take good care of Bruce...or else. He wouldn't want him to die before his psychological torture is over. Most likely after the bomb had gone out, a prisoner would have shanked him to death.
- But that just raises even more questions! If the prison was under Bane's control, and Bane's plan was to have Bruce helplessly watch Gotham burn or else, then why did the doctor even bother fixing Bruce's back? Why did the other prisoners not stop him from climbing the rope? Why did they cheer him on when he climbed out?
- Because they don't like Bane. They'll follow his orders under threats of violence, but'll cheer on and help the guy who stands a good chance of beating him if he shows the desire to do so.
- That would be fine, except they don't mention that AT ALL in the film! It's just Epileptic Trees unless they actually show some rebellion on-screen.
- When Bane was an inmate at the pit, the prisoners attacked him because he came between them and a potential rape victim.
- We rather clearly see the League of Shadows killing everyone in the pit when they rescue Bane. After that, he likely repopulated the place with people who are in his eyes guilty. So while the prisoners might be of dubious character, it's highly unlikely they are the same folks who are in the habit of killing people for the lulz. Also, the doctor more or less states that he is required by Bane to heal Bruce.
- Which is entirely the point. Even at his best, Bane doesn't believe that Bruce can make it out of the pit. Talia was the only one to have ever done so. Since Bane believes himself stronger than Bruce, and Bane was never able to make it out by himself, despite generally being Dangerously Genre Savvy, Bane lets his pride take the better of him on this one. It makes sense that Bane would want Bruce healed to his best, because that increases the false hope. In Bane's mind, the stronger Bruce gets, the more he's going to try to make it out of the pit and the more he'll fail, thus destroying his morale. It's the perfect mental torture that Bane was going for all along.
- Why were the citizens of Gotham once again allowing a mad man note to take over things and indiscriminately kill/destroy? Wouldn't private gun ownership have skyrocketed in the years since the terror attacks of The Joker? Admittedly, the first time was just street enforcers in mass numbers, and these were highly-skilled mercenaries, but the 2nd in Command himself admitted they didn't have enough men to really keep everyone from doing what they wanted (fleeing). I'm amazed more folks didn't take the streets and just bull rush any assembled League of Shadows goons.
- Paraphrased from memory: "And if the outside world interferes, or any of the people tries to flee, this unknown Gothamite, this unsung hero, will trigger the bomb!" Any organized resistance, armed or otherwise, from Gotham's populace would've been dealt with with a 4-megaton explosion. The only reason the police attacked en masse at the end was because Bats and Gordon were convinced Bane himself had control of the trigger, but the citizens of Gotham? Would anyone seriously risk themselves AND their families like that, when laying low meant they left you relatively alone?
- People are extremely unlikely to act that way if they're doing so alone; see the Bystander Effect. To have a reasonable chance against Bane's army they'd need to be able to organize and train, something that Bane's lockdown prevents (not to mention they think an ordinary person holds the bomb detonator; it's hard to plot when that could be anyone). Finally, even if they won, they knew they'd all be blown up.
- As far as private gun ownership goes, no, I don't think it would have gone up at all. The Joker's ancient history at this point, an isolated incident. Gotham's been at peace for eight years.
- Just a minor quibble here; Bane does NOT state that an armed resistance would be dealt with using the bomb at any point, and the quote that you referenced contains no words to that effect. Much more likely is the possibility that he would just have his men shoot the leaders.
- True, but that only means that Bane will not trigger the bomb if he can shoot the leaders, i.e. if the resistance has failed anyway. Think about what would happen if the resistance actually wins and kills or captures Bane. They still think that some unknown person holds the trigger, and they don't know where the bomb is. So it's only rational to assume that the trigger holder would blow Gotham up the moment Bane fails to uphold his reign. For the potential resistance this means that they either die fighting Bane, or die because they won.
- In short, private gun ownership is trumped by private nuke ownership.
Fistfights with Bane
- Why did Batman think his best bet to stopping Bane was to get into multiple fistfights with him? Batman's whole gimmick is using the shadows and being a ninja, and yet he does very little of that in the movie, instead becoming a straight up brawler for most of it.
- Being a Ninja is roughly one third of Batman's gimmick. The other two thirds are being The World's Greatest Detective and gadgets. Also, the entire sequence of Batman and Selina storming the sewers is an extended montage of Batman being a Ninja.
- And the reason why he decided to just straight-up fight Bane the second time is very very simple: he wanted to beat the living shit out of Bane with his bare hands. Return the favor, so to speak. He's actively looking for Bane in the crowd for that very reason, practicality or efficiency be damned.
- Because the first time it was a setup, and he was led into a trap where a) Bane had terrain advantage and b) when he tried stealth and trickery Bane threw it right back at him. More than likely, Batman's plan was to have Selina point the way towards Bane, hide in the shadows and analyze Bane and his men from hiding, and take them out methodically and from concealment. It... didn't work out that way. He was locked in an arena-like pit with extremely limited mobility, and with Bane's armed guards perched in sniping spots. There WAS no choice for Batman but to engage in hand-to-hand combat. The second time they fought, there was no chance to lure Bane into advantageous terrain or to wait him out because the bomb was ticking away, and Bane had already proved that using the shadows and ninja techniques was useless because he was experienced in them himself.
- Batman could have killed the lights right away, like he does later in the fight, to take out the guards then deal with Bane. Does anyone else think it may have been Bruce trying to prove to himself that he still had what it took to take on evil after 8 years out of the game?
- No, he couldn't. By the time he realized he'd been set up, he was face to face with Bane. He didn't have time to come up with a plan or try to take out the guards; he had to deal with Bane right then and right there.
- Well, he could have flung a few Batarangs at him. And you don't have to be a Combat Pragmatist to wonder what might happen if you pull that breath mask off. OK, it might just be to cover a hare lip, but odds are it does something.
- First off, throwing a few Batarangs wouldn't do anything to Bane. The man is capable of shrugging off explosives. Second, Batman's priority was defeating Bane, not unmasking him. For all Batman knew at the time, it was just a mask and wouldn't factor into his battle plan.
- Bane shrugs off the flashbangs that Batman throws because he isn't deceived by their actual innocuousness (he presumably recognises them from his League of Shadows training). He might shrug off having a pointy bat-shuriken stuck in him, but Bats doesn't even try it. And pulling off Bane's mask is worth trying because a character who is always wearing a mask may have a reason for doing so - say, it delivers an anaesthetic gas. Now while I know this and Batman doesn't, it makes sense to do what damage he can before closing in for fisticuffs, particularly when fighting a guy who is bigger and younger then you. You might as well argue that Batman might as well not fight Bane because even if he succeeds, he's still stuck in a trap and surounded by armed Mooks!
- The problem here is that you're able to make these decisions, logical as they may be, in the comfort of your home in front of a computer screen. Batman had to make them on the fly with a mild concussion from being punched in the head repeatedly while still getting the shit kicked out of him by a man almost twice his size who doesn't exactly give him much room to breath. That and you're forgetting that, like in one of the film's primary inspirations, Batman didn't do any of that specifically because he's trying to fight like he's still a young man, trying to match Bane's ferocity. It's only when it's clear he's losing that he tries his usual tricks, but the few that he has the time to pull out simply don't work on him.
- Well I was going to argue that Batman is always The Man With a Plan (so he should be able to come up with the plans that I come up with calmly in front of my computer) except he's out of practice, having not done this for 8 years. I still think he should have attacked the mask earlier, though.
- And as I said before, he didn't do that because he wanted to prove to everyone, especially after Alfred warned him against it, that he was still physically capable of taking out Bane on his own, without resorting to tricks. He gravely underestimated Bane, believing him to be just another thug like the ones he fought and defeated constantly nearly a decade earlier, and that he could match Bane's sheer strength with his own, and both lead to him getting the shit kicked out of him. It's only after he escapes from the prison and confronts Bane again that he fights with more precision to compensate for Bane's sheer physical advantage.
- And even when fighting with precision, he very nearly loses. This is all kind of the point of Bane as a character; not only is he physically stronger than Batman, not only is he roughly as skilled a fighter as Batman, he's also every bit as smart as Batman. Just about everything Batman can throw at him, Bane has a counter for. And Batman, for reasons already mentioned, severely underestimates him because he's never come up against someone physically superior to him to the point where he doesn't think a person fitting that description can possibly exist. It's one of his main flaws as a character, which is itself mirriored in Bane's underestimation of Batman and his belief that no one can make it out of the pit(though really it was more an underestimation about how helpful the doctors would be towards Bruce, but stil.))
Rosseau Was Right
- Didn't Bane kind of prove The Joker right? Under his reign of terror, the people of Gotham really DID eat each other. So much for the Rousseau Was Right theme of The Dark Knight.
- Most of the internal violence seemed to be coming from the full prison's worth of armed criminals running around with zero law enforcement, rather than what you would call the ordinary citizens.
- The only reason the people of Gotham started to devour each other was because of Bane's quasi-communist rhetoric. He was actively encouraging them to rise against specifically Gotham's upper crust. The Joker, on the other hand, sought to prove that everyone can become a sort of monster or horrendously selfish being in times of chaos and fear. He intended to take over Gotham solely so he could throw into chaos and prove himself right (as with the ferry scene). His plan was essentially the opposite of Bane's in spirit; where Bane wanted the "regular joes" of Gotham to destroy the privileged in order to further his own goals, the Joker wanted everyone ripping each other - and themselves - to shreds just because.
- Though in a more specific, individual sense, both Bane and Talia prove the Joker's point about how bad experience can bring any given individual down to his(and Batman's) level, just like Harvey.
- And yet Selina's example proves that bad experience can also affect people the other way around. Neither outcome is inevitable; it's What You Are in the Dark that determines whether you'll wallow or rise.
- I kinda assumed Joker was already right. Sure, the boat thing failed, but he still corrupted Harvey Dent. Hell, I always thought of Joker turning Harvey into Two-Face as "What If? The Killing Joke happened, only the Joker won?"
Fire and Ice
- A rather small point, but after Batman saves Gordon and the cops on the ice, he asks Gordon to use the flare to light up the beacon. Via a trail of gasoline fire on the ice. Considering they are already standing on thin ice, should they really start lighting fires on it?
- It was at night time in the dead of winter. It's a common occurrence with cold winters near bodies of water, the ice is thickest at night, and slowly thaws during the day. Still, gasoline fires do burn very hot.
- I assumed Batman had done something to the ice and got a message to Gordon somehow. He seemed very calm and the police are standing AND stupidly close together on the ice, so either they're all morons or they knew something we and their captors didn't.
- Rule of Cool, nothing more.
- That, and they could probably smell that there was gasoline on the ice. Not so hard to deduce what the flare was for, if so.
- It's unlikely that Batman got a message to Gordon. If he had, Gordon would have chosen exile when he was at his sentencing. He flat out told Crane that there was no way he and his officers were going out on that ice. He couldn't have seen Crane's "death by exile" coming, and probably expected to get shot to death defiantly standing up to Crane.
- I am from an area where ice fishing is common. Many people stick fire barrels directly on top of the ice in ice shacks and let them burn for 5+ hours. This ice was thinner, but the fire that was actually near the ice only lasted a few seconds. It's possible.
- They used to have "frost fairs" on the River Thames in London, when the ice was so thick they could light bonfires on it all night. Sure the river in the movie won't be anything like that thick, but if they're on a spot thick enough to walk on (all the exiles should have stuck close to the bridge uprights for this very reason), it'll survive a brief flash of gasoline flame. The flame on the ice would've gone out fast, too, but by then the beacon would have been lit.
I Am Justice
- I kind of understand Bane's motivation in setting free the prisoners - creating more chaos and all that, but doesn't it go against the League of Shadows' entire philosophy for Justice? The league pursues Disproportionate Retribution to crime. And now they are setting free a whole bunch of criminals, who might be in jail because of the Dent Act, but are still basically guilty.
- In Bane's opinion, just like in R'as al Ghul's, everyone in Gotham is guilty, and needs to die to teach the world a lesson. R'as had his men set insane murderers from Arkham loose to hasten the city's fall, and Bane does the same with the Blackgate convicts. He wants to show how Gotham descends into an insane mix of people's tyranny and total anarchy before it gets wiped out, both to torment Bruce Wayne and to set up his example upon the world. The Blackgate convicts would die with everyone else once the bomb went off.
- Is anyone else not seeing any Occupy Wall Street parallels? Bane's talk about how the system is corrupt is in keeping with the League of Shadows' beliefs, Selina's warning about the fate of Gotham's elite could easily just be her venting about her life so far, there's no proof the looting and evictions were by the people of Gotham and not the mercenaries/Talia's inferiors in the League of Shadows or the convicts Bane released...
- We do see that some ordinary citizens from the lower classes aren't entirely horrified by Bane's actions, and no-one certainly gathers the courage to speak against them. Some parallels do exist, but in a very exaggerated form, and they are not the only ideas represented in the film.
- Of course, do keep in mind that the movie was written and partially shot before the Occupy movement ever emerged. Yes, everything is perfectly in-character for Bane and the League and Selina, because that's how it was originally written, just as part of their characters. It's just funny looking back how what was written for their characters happens to coincide with the Occupy movement's values.
- We have clear evidence that Occupy was very much on the film's agenda during production: http://www.avclub.com/articles/this-is-why-batman-never-showed-up-to-occupy-wall,65184/
- "Thought about using stock footage" =/= "on the film's agenda." The Occupy Wall Street movement produced big crowds of angry people. They wanted footage of big crowds of angry people. It doesn't necessarily mean they had some political message in mind when they conceived of the plot.
- And doesn't the fact that they decided not to do it (if we take Modine at his word) specifically because they didn't want to trivialize the Occupy movement suggest a kind of sympathy for it? At very least, it proves that Occupy was ongoing while substantial decisions about the film were still being made, so you can't just claim "it was too late to have any impact on it." It doesn't take a genius to notice that the film is full of the same sorts of themes and imagery of class revolt that Occupy invoked as a matter of course. Whether this is a matter of conscious or unconscious parallelism, but denying that it exists is impossible. Incidentally, they weren't going to use stock footage, as you put it — they were contemplating shooting new footage.
- So what they decided to not put in the movie proves the parallels? From a certain point of view, all populist movements are going to sound alike and parallel one another, but the movie has far more parallels in literature than it does with a movement that started after the script was written and has a couple of similar talking points.
- It proves that the Occupy movement was clearly on their minds and in their thoughts as they were making the movie. Obviously, the movement took off well after the movie's production was underway, but that doesn't mean that changes couldn't be made to make the parallels even clearer; the script might have been finished years before the movement emerged, but that doesn't mean it's set in concrete and unable to be altered to incorporate some small reference to them at least. Plus, it might just be 'a couple of similar talking points' that Bane's movement shares with Occupy, but you don't exactly have to read very deeply into the text to see them. Obviously the movie's making a more general comment on populist movements and the dangers of mob rule — if it was released a few years earlier we might have been talking about it in terms of the Tea Party instead, for example — but just because the parallels might not have been intended doesn't mean they're not there anyway.
- Nicely said. I'd add that, if any individual viewer finds that the film resonates with Occupy, who is to say that they are wrong? It's his or her interpretation, and it shouldn't be too surprising that age-old themes of class conflict should get filtered through its most contemporary iteration.
- The Dark Knight Rises is definitely a look into American social class and society - it isn't just by chance that Bane decides to announce the bomb after destroying the football stadium, nor the Stock Exchange robbery (even if he was gaining funds to do so). The movie is about class, it doesn't mean all people of a lower class want the world to fall into chaos but - when people started connecting Romney to Bane (and Bain Capital), the connection isn't true but people who live in the super class can't sit through a film like this without getting squirmy. The big houses get looted, the big, corrupt businessmen are put on trial. The Dark Knight trilogy has always played on peoples' fears and one of the fears of America is losing 'control' over the lower classes and a giant fear of communism and the fall of government. The movie makes a strong statement about class, even the pivotal hero is linked to class, Batman himself is a man of privilege who decides to dedicate his money to the betterment of the world. Privilege comes up multiple times during the film, a comparison between Bane who sees himself as a man of nothing and Batman who mocks for his upbringing. The movie may not be a direct response to Occupy Wall Street but it's very internally linked to the matters of it.
- And when the lower-class get their revolution, they turn out to be just as corrupt as those they "depose". Let's leave aside the fact that the revolution was being "led" by armed criminals who had been sprung from jail and were only able to operate due to the neutralization of the city's democratically appointed authority, and that rich people go to jail all the time. The movie even goes out of its way to point out that rich people are just as human as everyone else.
- Except that Bane didn't care about a revolution at all, and he did arm and release all the criminals from the prison. Bane was using class frustrations to try to get people to join him, and was actually heartening by how little chaos in the average streets there seemed to be- the boy's home still gets food and TV, when Gordon goes to chew Foley out for not coming out of hiding to help support an attempted resistance, we see that Foley's neighborhood is more or less intact. We don't know how many regular people fell for Bane's rhetoric and how many of the people we see committing violence are former Blackgate inmates.
- It's basically "A Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens — class warfare set against the backdrop of the French Revolution.
- It also has many similarities, broadly speaking, to the rise of communism in Russia (and the actual French Revolution, of course). A lot of talk about rule by the people and equality and casting down the corrupt wealthy... but when you look closely, you notice there's one guy and a group of people following him who are giving the orders (it's just a different guy than before, and his instructions are different and more harsh... but he keeps talking about how he's making things more equal, and gives you unimportant equal rights in exchange for the important things he's taking!). It emphasizes the most important lesson that the Occupy crowd needs to remember: just because somebody preaches something doesn't mean they'll practice it, and it's important to be sure that populism isn't used as a veil for hostile takeover by a dictator.
- For anyone interested, Nolan speaks to these parallels in this interview..
Ice at Night
- Why did they send Gordon and crew across the ice at night? That's a terrible idea if you want a death sentence since the ice is thicker at night and it's cold enough that more of the river will be frozen too. This especially doesn't make sense because Gordon and the other cops are probably the best trained to deal with that crap.
- I have a feeling that the guys with guns would eventually just shoot Gordon if they managed to actually make it a decent distance on the ice without falling through.
- Remember the finale with Blake on the bridge? Even if someone had been able to cross the majority of the river, they'd in all likelihood be shot by the US Army or remaining local police officers sitting on the other side who were worried about giving Bane an excuse to trigger the bomb.
- Given the love of Bane's forces for the taste of theatricality and deception, it doesn't make sense to send Gordon and the others out at night. They'd want everyone to see the former Gotham Police Commissioner get his comeuppance, preferably in broad daylight with a bloodthirsty crowd.
- Bane's forces weren't in control of Gordon's trial. Crane specifically states that even Bane has no power in his courtroom. More important than that, however, is the fact that the entire point of sending Gordon out onto the ice to die becomes moot if Gordon actually makes it across the ice, and if they wind up having to shoot him to keep him from making it, then they all look like massive hypocrites. The benefit of having the event in broad daylight is that Gordon and his crew can actually see the ice, and would be able to identify weak points in it more easily. In the dead of night, they're crossing blind.
- Are we really supposed to take Crane entirely seriously when he says that, though? Bane might have no official power in that courtroom but he's seen sitting in a rather prominent and noticeable place in the courtroom nevertheless, and the court's verdicts seem to serve his interests as much if not more than anyone else's. As for looking hypocritical, Gordon himself points out that the whole trial is a sham so obvious it can practically be seen from space, so I doubt they really care that much by that point, especially since they're going to blow the entire city up in less than a day anyway.
- Could be just the way things worked out; they only managed to catch Gordon barely a few hours before the bomb was due to go off anyway, so they might not have had time to make a big production of it, and decided that the risk that Gordon could somehow affect their plans made it worth bumping him off sooner rather than later. Bane might have simply decided that practicality trumped theatricality in this case.
- When Batman captured the GSE robber and discovered that he was making encrypted transactions, the reason he does not go to the police (thus giving them the evidence that there are frauds) is that Bruce claims "the police does not have the equipment" to decode them. And he does not give the police the equipment because he worries that it can be used as a weapon. Ahem, I assume it's supercomputers he was talking about. What Could Possibly Go Wrong?? (No, seriously.)
- That's kind of the point. In that exact scene Alfred calls Bruce out on his paranoia and arrogance. He even says that in Bruce's mind, it seems everything can be used as a weapon.
- Also while Batman took the transmitter, he did leave the robber's computer behind. I'm sure Fox will be more than happy to decode that for the police.
- The people in the Pit are mostly pretty helpful to Batman. However, they would have been a whole lot more helpful if they'd mentioned the child who escaped from the pit was a she.
- They would have been, yeah. But to be fair, they had no idea her gender would ever be relevant to him, and technically, they might not even have known. "The child who escaped the pit" seemed to be something of a legend by then.
- And even if they had, Bruce wouldn't have known that the child was Miranda.
- Goodness knows, if I were that child's mother, I'd make damned sure all the other prisoners thought the baby was a boy.
- Furthermore, given the location of the pit, which suggests somewhere in Asia (India, or Afghanistan), many Indo-Asian languages are gender neutral. When they speak of the child, they're translating from their native language, which makes no distinction between gender.
- It is possible that they just didn't know it was a girl. It is heavily implied that when Talia and Ra's rescued Bane from the Pit, the League of Shadows slaughter all the prisoners in there and begin replacing them with enemies of the League (which makes sense considering that the men in there murdered Talia's mother/Ra's wife and tried to rape Talia so they probably would both want revenge). The story of the child that escaped could have been passed along, but no one necessarily could have mentioned that the child was Talia, only that the child's protector was Bane, the man who is now in charge of the Pit. So like a former Troper said, it was legend to them. True legend, but legend nonetheless.
- That doesn't work; the doctor( that is, the guy slumped up against the wall/bars the whole time who tells Bruce to jump without the rope) is specifically pointed out as the guy who delivered Talia as a baby, the guy who forgot to lock the cell door leading to her mother's death, and the guy who botched Bane's surgery. The other guy(the one who punches Bruce's spine back into place) may have not been there at the time, but the doctor was.
- "The guy who forgot to lock the cell door leading to her mother's death". Why would a prisoner have the keys to the cells? The doctor was probably a prison guard, not a prisoner; it's not unthinkable that after the explicitly stated massacre of the prisoners, the guards and propagators of the prison were the first enemies of the League of Shadows to be imprisoned. Ra's al Ghul did seem a little fond of bitter irony; it's the prison's equivalent of using Bruce's father's monorail to kill Gotham.
- Anyone else find it odd that Bruce just assumed that the League of Shadows ceased to exist after he defeated Ra's? He knew they had existed for centuries, yet he thinks one defeat and the death of their leader ends the whole show?
- Maybe he just thought Ra's Al Ghul was lying out of his ass. Or maybe the failed attack on Gotham exposed them and America and the rest of the world decided to make them Public Enemy #1 and hunted them into (supposed) extinction. Also, it might not have been a very big organization and the majority of the membership might have been in Gotham and caught or killed, or broke up afterwards. Likely a combination of all three.
- The structure of the League seemed very much to be a mass of generic (though skilled) ninja, with leadership being groomed when a suitable candidate was found. There was Ra's, the guy pretending to be Ra's, and the heir. Bruce was the heir, killed the guy pretending to be Ra's, and then killed Ra's. Without the leadership, you have a bunch of fanatical ninja trained to follow orders and seemingly no one to give them.
- Not to mention he killed a lot of them when he burned their headquarters to the ground. I'd assume the guys Ra's brings with him when invading Gotham were just mercs (and the same seems to apply for Bane's version of the League), rather than trained League members. And with most of the League dead, and their ongoing plan regarding Gotham stopped, any remnant wouldn't be much of a threat to anyone, considering the League's MO was to target entire cities.
- Which is all well and good up until he is informed of Bane's existence. That he seems reluctant to believe in the return of the League up till its new leader is literally beating his skull in goes beyond skepticism and into denial.
- Considering his dislike for guns, Batman seems to have few qualms about heavy artillery. I know he probably needs it, but it's still funny.
- I'd assume that just as long that his heavy armaments doesn't straight up kill anybody, Batman would have no issue with using it. Notice he doesn't exactly shoot to kill with the heavy weaponry.
- He shot the Bat's forward-mounted machine guns straight into the truck's driver seat. And he probably did kill the driver with them.
- How 'bout that. He broke his one rule. Admittedly, in the most desperate situation in the entire series.
- One of his main concerns with breaking it is that he would attempt to justify it at other times. He ceased to be Batman after this and can as such not break it again.
- How does Batman know about Selina's situation on top of Daggett's penthouse? He loses Bane in the chase following the Stock Exchange attack, so he wasn't following him there, and he got the necklace back, so he couldn't have been tracing Selina.
- He didn't. He was originally there to interrogate Daggett and just happened to be there when Selina needed help.
- I thought he didn't know Daggett was involved at the time.
- Before he makes his return as Batman, Bruce finds out from Alfred's research that Daggett was the one who brought Bane to Gotham. Bane was involved in a mercenary mission that involved securing diamond mining rights in west Africa for Daggett.
- Batman was there to get information from Daggett, who had hired Bane to secure mining rights in some other country and then brought him over to Gotham. The novelization actually fills in one of the film's plot-holes, which is how Bruce Wayne knew that Selina Kyle was looking for the clean slate. He eavesdropped on her and Daggett.
South Dakot'a NFL Franchise
- A very minor one, but how the hell does Rapid City, South Dakota have a professional football team? Is it somewhere in the comics?
- Tell me this: why does Green Bay, Wisconsin have the Packers? Maybe it was grandfathered in the same way, or maybe the city is larger in the DCU.
- Do they say explicitly that the team is a professional football team and not a development league team?
- Rapid City sounds like the sort of fictional city name in the DCU (Think Coast City), except is distinctly not a name previously used in the DC canon. To me, it seems like this is part of Nolan's determined refusal to fit his Batman into a wider continuity. Surely another director would have had the Gotham Rogues be playing, say, Metropolis, Coast City or Star City as a cute shout out. I'd wager that Coast City is a big place in the Nolan-verse, big enough to have a professional team, and not the same one as in South Dakota.
Economics Don't Work That Way
- Everyone except for our heroes seems to automatically buy and act on the story that Bruce Wayne wiped out his own fortune as if it was unquestionable; shouldn't someone have considered the huge and very public armed assault on the stock exchange by a terrorist in broad daylight literally the day before as maybe having something to do with it instead? I mean, I can understand how things might get out of control because things get set into motion automatically and he'd lose everything anyway, but this was hardly a subtle operation or anything. You'd think someone might suspect that there might be a bit of dodginess surrounding the whole thing.
- The people that Bruce lost money to would certainly have wanted that money in their possession. His lawyers might feel certain that they could prove the fraud, but nothing is certain until it gets ruled on and (though I don't pretend to know the nuances of the law) could be tied up in litigation for years. The thumb-print backed trades passed most peoples' common sense threshold of evidence, and the action (fraud or otherwise) did wipe out the Wayne fortune, so the end result was "Wayne loses entire fortune betting on the futures market."
- Absolutely, I understand the process of what happened — it's just the whole 'assault on the stock exchange' seems to be completely forgotten by everyone. Even if he still loses his fortune, you'd think that someone would acknowledge the possibility that it might have something to do with it. I mean, the 'common sense threshold' about the fingerprints is all very well, but it's equally commonsense to suggest that 'armed attack, robbery and kidnapping on the stock-exchange' + 'billionaire suddenly loses his entire fortune apparently personally playing on the stock exchange the very next day despite having shown no interest whatsoever in playing stocks for the previous eight years' = 'there might be a possible link here'. It's not like how Bane and his men ended up fiddling the stock markets required any kind of subterfuge or anything outside of acquiring Bruce's fingerprints; they basically went in there guns blazing, openly messed around with some stuff in front of everyone in the room, and then led the police on a chase until the Batman showed up. You don't exactly have to be the Batman to see that there's a possible connection.
- When millions/billions of dollars are at stake, you don't just shrug your shoulders and say "something is obviously up; let's just give him the money back." There'd be, at the least, a long, drawn-out investigation.
- As Bruce is leaving the board meeting where he turns over power to Miranda, someone (I think Fox) points out they should be able to prove it was fraud in the long run, but in the short term Bruce is screwed.
- Well, in Real Life, yes the attack on the stock market would probably have overruled Bruce losing everything, so ultimately it is just Critical Research Failure / Rule of Drama, and not the first in this series either.
- They didn't attack the stock market, they attacked a stock exchange. From the looks of it, they didn't actually do any major financial damage to anyone but Bruce Wayne. Fraud could be proven by showing the time coinciding with the moment the first bullets are fired inside the exchange, and that the options were input by the application recovered from the laptop—but like real life identity theft (which is what this boils down to) it takes time and one generally isn't immediately given the benefit of the doubt by the institutions that have to cover/recover the defrauded funds.
- A stock exchange is part of the stock market. You really think if, say, someone attacks the New York Stock Exchange, the other stock exchanges in the country and around the world are just gonna keep going on as normal? They're all interconnected.
- Imagine you're with the Securities Exchange Commission, and a man who just ruined himself through thumbprint-verified risky futures transactions comes into your office. He explains that the transactions were fraudulent, and he explain how his thumbprint got on there. You see, a high-class thief posed as his maid and stole his fingerprints (in a burglary he didn't report to authorities) in order to give them to the masked terrorist who attacked the stock exchange specifically to make these transactions. They were hired by a business rival, one of the city's richest and most connected citizens, in order to make the man in front of you poor. The man in front of you is Bruce Wayne, who dropped out of college and disappeared so completely for seven years that he was declared dead. Upon his return, he showed highly erratic behavior: Buying a hotel just because he could, drunkenly chasing the Gotham elite from his home before burning it down, taking the entire Russian ballet out on his private yacht, crashing his fancy sports car into a police convoy, etc. Most recently, he funneled almost all of his company's R&D budget into a save-the-world vanity project in alternative energy and turned into a total recluse for two years when it failed. In short - it looks like a man with a record of reckless and highly costly behavior is spinning an unbelievable, highly paranoid story directly relating to a tragic terrorist attack in order to get out of paying money that his thumbprint (far more unshakable than a signature) says he owes. You'd either toss him out on his ass or call the men in white coats.
- Which is all very well and good, except that there's still the matter of what exactly the terrorists were doing to explain away. Even a stopped clock can be right twice a day, after all.
- Which is why they could probably prove fraud—eventually. After an investigation into what exactly the terrorists were doing. In the meantime, Bruce Wayne stays broke, because there is no benefit of the doubt for this sort of thing.
- 'Eventually'? It seems to me like any officer of the SEC who refuses to consider the possibility that the two events are linked even in light of the above will probably not be keeping hold of his or her job for very long, and will probably face an entire barrage of lawsuits and investigations into his / her own conduct on top of it.
- Even if everyone refused to give Bruce Wayne the benefit of the doubt that the massive terrorist attack didn't have anything to do with him losing his fortune, wouldn't Bruce's own lawyers be immediately filing some kind of legal injunction or block that would prevent anyone from taking a goddamn thing until they'd gotten everything sorted out? It's not like they don't have a particularly compelling case, after all.
- Where is Gordon's family? In the first two movies he had a wife and kids. In this movie, they don't show up anywhere. And when Gordon confronts Foley about keeping his head down, Foley said something like "If you still had a family then maybe you'd understand." Are we supposed to infer that Gordon's wife divorced him, took the kids and moved away? If so, why didn't that detail get any more focus?
- Someone mentions at the party at the beginning of the movie that Barbara (the wife, not the daughter) left him and took the kids with her to Cleveland.
- Imagine your family is kidnapped, and a madman threatens to kill your son, who you learn your spouse loves most. Then the madman is stopped by a heroic stranger. Then your spouse says you can't tell anyone, and publically declares the madman a saint and claims the heroic stranger murdered this great man. Wouldn't you leave?
- I always assumed that she left because she couldn't stand seeing her husband kill himself inside defending a madman while badmouthing a hero. She left him more because she loved him TOO much in my opinion.
The Dent Lie
- They say the Dent Act was "based on a lie". And yeah, it's connected to the Big Lie that Harvey Dent was a hero when in fact he had recently turned evil. But the concepts of the law still ring true, because apparently it's done wonders to reduce Gotham's crime rate. So why is the law itself portrayed as being morally ambiguous after the lie is revealed?
- Much of that ambiguous feeling comes from Bane's claptrap about city officials (such as Gordon) being corrupt, when in fact they're not corrupt.
- In all likelihood, the law oversteps or assumes authority in a big way. In a less reactionary time, it would probably have never been passed. With Harvey Dent as both an inspiration and a martyr, the city was able to convince the people that the Act was a necessary emergency power. Think of it like this: imagine an alternate universe where 9/11 was an inside job. Once that came to light, chances are there would be a massive outcry to repeal the Patriot Act (reactionary legislation granting far-reaching emergency powers that never would have passed without the tragedy that it followed.)
- The Dent Act, from the way it's described, does sound a bit extreme—it seems to deny those imprisoned any sort of parole, meaning that committing crimes could become a life sentence.
- It's more than that- if Harvey had survived and been arrested at the end of the previous movie, the entire case against the mobsters would likely have collapsed, in the same way if a police officer is arrested for a crime- especially a serious crime- then all previous cases they have worked on would be reviewed. The defence for the mobsters could suggest that all of the evidence Dent gathered was suspect because Dent turned out to be a crazy murderous maniac who held a gun to a small boy's head, so who knows what else he had been up to, or what laws he was willing to break to gather evidence (case in point- holding a gun to a suspect's head to find the Joker, when said suspect was wearing his girlfriend's nametag). That's the whole reason Batman took the fall for Harvey in the first place, in fact.
- According to the novel (and quick lines in the movie that are easy to miss), the Dent Act gives the State a number of extraordinary powers, including but not limited to: eliminating parole and insanity pleas, the ability to hold felony suspects indefinitely without a trial, and the authorization to place women prisoners into the general male population. It'd be pretty easy to set people off about all that, especially those with friends or family imprisoned under the law (which, given that it's aimed at crime instead of terrorism, would be more people than you might think).
- At the beginning of the movie the mayor mentions that there's some drive to repeal the Dent Act. They are using Harvey Dent Day to in part drum up more support to keep the Act from being repealed.
- In retrospect, doesn't it seem like the Big Lie from the previous movie was kind of unnecessary? It seems like they just could've told the truth, and passed the same law, only they would have called it the Batman Act rather than the Dent Act. Yeah, Harvey Dent was a symbol of Justice, but so was Batman, to the point that he had fans who dressed up like him and tried to do his job.
- Some people thought Batman was a hero, some people thought he was a menace. (Remember those people who insisted that he be arrested?) They wanted a more pure example to inspire the city.
- If the truth about Harvey Dent came out, it would cast a shadow on all of his previous convictions. Those clean streets he fought for would be flooded with mob members that he helped put away. Passing the law also probably required that a powerful symbol like Dent be a martyr rather than disgraced and a villain. I doubt anyone had a stroke of brilliance in coming up with the new law; it just authorized powers and measures that in more peaceful times would have been considered going too far. Measures that sound much more reasonable in wartime.
Bane, Man of the People
- Why did Bane bother with all that communist-sounding stuff about overthrowing the elites and restoring the power of the people? (Another communist-sounding bit is when Selina remarks "this was somebody's house" and her friend responds "Now it's everybody's house".) Bane doesn't believe in any of that; he plans to kill friggin' everyone regardless of their ideals. So...does he say all this stuff to become popular? Good luck with that, considering that you're holding everyone hostage with a friggin' nuclear bomb! Does he say this stuff to make the people more docile? Maybe. But I think the whole "Don't move or else I'll kill everyone" thing is a pretty powerful motivator already. He doesn't need propaganda to bolster his case.
- It bugs me because not only was it unnecessary, it actually made the bad guys seem a little more sympathetic, in a confusing way. Like, take that one businessman they forced to walk over the ice. On the one hand, I feel sorry for this guy, because he's being tried by a Kangaroo Court. But on the other hand, he seems to be a wealthy asshole who deserves some punishment (though not death), so I find myself sympathizing with the villains a little bit. It just felt weird. I'd prefer it if they'd tried some guy who courageously spoke out against Bane or something.
- Because Nolan's Batman movies are all about this ambiguity? Ra's al Ghul, the Joker and Bane were all, in their own way, homicidal zealots. But what made them great characters was how right they sometimes turned out to be. How uncomfortably close the things they said and did are to thoughts most of us have had at some point. Bane does not climb those stairs and declare himself the Emperor of Evil, because that's not the type of story we are in. He declares himself a revolutionary giving power back to the masses (even though we later know that this was never his intention). And the fact that this somehow resonates with the audience shows us how easily a movement for equality can turn into a Reign of Terror. To me the movie's message was not "that's what the Occupy movement truly wants". It was "if we don't fix this broken and corrupt political and financial system, this is what the next Occupy movement WILL look like."
- And because to some in the audience, the one-percenters are the heroes, and the Occupiers are the villains.
- It's because Bane wants to give people false hope, as he explicitly tells Bruce. He paints himself as a hero and liberator, then makes things go from bad to worse, then blows everything up anyway. He wants the people to think that he's someone with a clear, comprehensible, even sympathetic goal so that if they do what he wants, he'll let them survive. Then he snatches that away at the last minute.
- He is also explicitly trying to bring out the worst in Gotham's citizenry. The populist rhetoric whips some of them into a looting frenzy. The kangaroo courts appeal to those of the lower class who felt wronged (been fired? downsized? can't afford to eat?) by the ruling elites. The rest of the citizens keep their head down and just try to survive. Bane wants them crawling over each other like rats in a slowly sinking ship.
- The goal of the LoS was to bring balance to the world at large. The destruction of Gotham was meant to be symbolic of this as Gotham is believed to be the most morally-corrupt city in the world. Bane wanted the world to see the spectacle that transpired when the sins of the government were brought to light, he wanted the world to see the rich and greedy and indulgent ripped from their privileged lives. Moreover he wanted the world to have hope that Gotham could be saved, then when he obliterated it he would crush those hopes, and the world would see what becomes of civilization that devolved into what Gotham had become. The end goal was move the world into revolution that would reshape society in a way where the rich could not oppress the poor, and where government was transparent and held accountable again.
- And he's the villain how, again? Sounds like a noble goal, that.
- The League of Shadows are Well Intentioned Extremists. Their end goal is noble by definition. The problem is their methods, specifically the whole "willing to kill millions of people'' bit.
- He's a villain because he was willing and planning to blow up an entire city full of people to achieve his goals. To transfer it to a real-world example, reforming the modern American political and financial systems is a noble goal, but does that mean that everyone in New York City should die in a nuclear explosion in order to do so? Does every police officer deserve to die because there are plenty of corrupt ones? Does everyone who works in a bank deserve to die because big banking caused the Global Financial Crisis? Don't confuse the ends with the means; bad things tend to happen when people do that.
You Fail Medicine Forever
- From the main page: "Bane fakes the death of his associate Dr. Pavel by taking a blood transfusion and injecting it into a corpse that's about to be mangled beyond recognition in a plane crash." So a blood transfusion replaces your DNA completely?
- Yup. Dental records too. Didn't you get the memo?
- Dr. Pavel was a Russian (IIRC) citizen who was supposedly killed flying over (IIRC) a foreign country. Why would they have his dental records or DNA, or bother to ask, especially given this is a CIA flight, and everything was probably cloaked in secrecy? (Then again, in that case, that would raise the question of why the need for the transfusion in the first place, and how the world would come to know of Pavel's supposed death.)
- They may have pulled the corpse's teeth and mutilated its fingerprints before bringing it on board the plane.
- The point wasn't to replace the DNA of the corpse. The point was to provide DNA evidence that Pavel was actually aboard the plane when it crashed.
- OP here - I know it was supposed to look like Pavel was on the plane, what I don't get is how this is supposed to work. Do they only check the blood & not the teeth? Wouldn't the lack of circulation be a problem?
- I agree with your point, being that blood isn't actually the only way to check DNA, but the teeth may have been mangled enough to hide the fact it wasn't him, and re: the circulation... They were explicitly showed giving the corpse CPR. I was wondering why they were trying to resuscitate him, but i realized that they were basically trying to pump the blood through his system. Although it doesn't make sense.
- To quote one of this work's primary inspirations: The impact is tremendous. Even bone is turned to powder. Not much of a corpse left. Mostly liquid. Problem is...there might not be any fingerprints. Even dental records would probably be useless.
- So, after such tremendous impact, the resulting fire, and the days it would take the investigation team to reach such remote location, the blood would be intact and perfectly fine for testing, but not other tissues?
- If I took your body and liquefied it, then wouldn't the parts that already started out as liquid be the most intact parts left, by definition?
- The blood transfusion isn't a guarantee that Pavel's DNA will be identified, but it's a chance. If it works, it pretty much guarantees that nobody will suspect that Pavel might be alive, if not, it doesn't make the rest of Bane's plan any less likely to work — so why not try for the extra insurance?
- Exactly. If the corpse is so vaporized that they can't even get DNA traces off of it, then they durn sure aren't getting intact fingerprints or dental work either. It's a win-win scenario for Bane.
- Two questions. One, why were there no guards at the prison where Bruce was taken? Two, how did he get back to Gotham in the short amount of time the film showed, even though Gotham was completely sealed off?
- The fact that a guy like Bane can simply waltz in and out of the place to me implies that it isn't a prison in the official sense; it's a place that was built by whatever nearby warlord there is as a dumping ground for people they don't like. The only way in or out is through the top, itself only accessible via an extremely treacherous climb up. They don't have guards because they figure it doesn't need them. There have been a grand total of two escapees ( Bruce included), and they were both under extraordinary circumstances, and I highly doubt they give two shits about the well-being of the inmates. As for your second point, although the film may not convey it too well, the whole second act of the movie takes place over a five month period, there's a good chance that Bruce actually escaped a good while earlier than the film implies, they just kept it around the same speed for the sake of pacing.
- Bruce escapes about 21 days before the bomb goes off, giving him about 19 days to get back to Gotham since he arrives with ~18 hours to go, meaning he spent 4 and a half months in the cell training for the climb.
- Well that sounds difficult, but far from impossible for a guy like Bruce Wayne to pull off in under three weeks, and although this delves a bit into fan wankery there's always the added probability that he planned his escape further ahead off-screen; probably asking his doctors where the prison is roughly located and if there are any nearby settlements for him to go to for further navigation.
- He's the goddamn Bruce Wayne, people! He was probably Crazy-Prepared to all kinds of scenarios, including being dumped in the middle of nowhere. What I think happened was, he headed to that town that was plainly visible from the top of the Pit, found out where he is, then phoned one of his numerous international contacts. I imagine that even as a former owner of Wayne Enterprises, given all the stuff he pulled off previously under his public persona, he'd have no shortage of people who owed him a favor — such as airlifting him to America.
- Sorry, but Bruce's disappearance at the end of the movie is justified by saying he died in Gotham during the chaos. During the entire five-month period Gotham was under Bane's rule, Bruce Wayne could not have been seen by anyone, otherwise that explanation would not work; since he was outside of a city no one could go in or out of, him being outside the city would shoot a massive hole through the official cover. Therefore, Bruce Wayne could not have used any means that involved being "Bruce Wayne", and had to find his way back and into the city without using his identity (or even being recognized).
- IMDB says the exterior shots of the pit was in India. Bruce spent some time in India in Batman: Gotham Knight.
- If Bruce was so paranoid about the fusion generator being used as a nuclear weapon, why did he keep it around? Why not just destroy it? This isn't the first time that Wayne Industries tech has been used as the centerpiece of an evil plan.
- Because as he explains he's still trying to develop the device in a way that it cannot be converted to a weapon.
- It was also Wayne Industries that made it...not Bruce. He has shareholders he must appease. To destroy something they sunk how many billions of dollars into would cause an uproar. Quietly shelving it...less so.
- It must be hard, trying to convert a power source into something that can't be made into a weapon all by yourself in a isolated wing of your mansion.
- Doesn't mean Fox wasn't still working on it.
- It was very implied that bruce had a lot of hope in the reactor
GCPD's Skeleton Crew
- Gotham City proper is apparently home to 12 million people. The major metropolitan area surrounding Gotham is apparently home to 30 million people, according to the Dark Knight. And yet GCPD only has 3000 cops or so on the payroll? NYC has, last time I checked, 8 million people and 38-40 thousand cops. I understand that crime has gone down significantly, but even with lay offs you should still have over ten thousand cops on payroll and tens of thousands more ex-cops making up the citizenry, leading to the above questions of why there wasn't more organized resistance.
- Simple, the Mafia and organized crimes probably paid the Justice Department to have less cops around the streets. That and the League of Shadows have them all killed.
- It's possible that they might have been just the City of Gotham (covering just the island) police, whilst there might also have been the Metropolitan Gotham City police who covered the surrounding area of Gotham. In fact if you look closely, the cops Blake encounters on the bridge are wearing Gotham PD badges, so there were Gotham Cops on the other side of the bridges. Quite a lot must also have been killed in the blast, with a token amount kept alive to show Bane's 'Mercy'.
Bruce the Recluse
- From what I understood Batman disappeared 8 years ago after taking the fall. About that same time Bruce Wayne becomes a shut in. Did NO ONE put this together?
- I got the sense that Bruce became a recluse after losing his ass on the fusion generator project. Miranda even says something to the effect that "nobody who didn't care about the world would spend so much money to save it, and then go into hiding when he failed". Not sure about the exact time frame, but the impression was that the generator had been completed 2-3 years prior and had then been shut down. After a massive R&D allocation with nothing to show for it, that's when Wayne Enterprises took a downturn.
- Batman has been missing for 8 years, Bruce has been missing for two since the failure of the energy project. Daggett and Miranda discuss this at the start.
- Bruce Wayne didn't disappear at the same time. He spent an undetermined amount of time doing charity after he quit being Bats, but after awhile he felt like he failed in that regard, so he isolated himself from the world.
- Batman disappeared the same night Harvey Dent died? If I were a Gotham citizen, I would find this more suspicious. Actually, I think there is a video where Dent admits that he is Batman, in front of a lot of witnesses.
- Except by that point, there was substantial evidence that Batman and Dent were in two different places at once—such as Batman being called in to interrogate the Joker on where he put Harvey Dent. Or Batman literally pulling Dent out of the fire. Or, most importantly, Batman showing up to stop Joker attacking the convoy that Dent was in, and was seen by the press getting out immediately after Joker's capture.
- Or, y'know, Harvey Dent's clearly identifiable body.
- The night Dent died was also the night Rachel Dawes - known to be Bruce Wayne's childhood friend - dies. It's not too far fetched to imagine that he was carrying a torch for her all that time, even if most people don't realise why Bruce Wayne takes her death so hard.
- No, it wasn't. There was a solid day of daylight between one and the other.
Let Them Eat Blake
- Okay, so you have a city of 8 million people, isolated from the world for 5 months. What the fuck did the people of Gotham eat for five months? We saw a few trucks bringing in federal aid when the special forces guys arrived but there is no way you could bring in enough to feed 8 million people. There are other logistical nightmares related to operating a city, who maintains the sewage systems for those five months? (The cops, not like they had anything better to do.) What about power? Fresh water? What happens to the trash?
- I think Bane mentioned at one point that he'd make sure food and supplies got into the city, but absolutely no other outside stuff was allowed in. Given that it was Bane saying it, I may have misheard, though.
- We are not only told, but also shown how they negotiate about sending supplies to the city! We see trucks rolling over the only open bridge under the supervision of Bane's men. We see people lining up for supplies on the street. It's all shown and explained.
- You need to eat approximately 2 pounds of food a day to be above starvation rations, given 12 million people in Gotham that's 24 million pounds of food a day. A shipping container can hold up to 53,000 lbs of food each, which works out to 452 containers (trucks) a day. Or 9 trucks an hour, or one truck every 6 minutes and 40 seconds. Given the small size of Bane's force, he couldn't be reliably checking one truck every six minutes 24 hours a day for 5 months, he just doesn't have the man power.
- Bane has hundreds of men at his command, potentially thousands after the takeover, counting converted prisoners and citizens. He has the manpower to keep an eye on all the entry points on the island, and no-one dares to provoke him, since if he did find out people sneaking into the city, he would set off the bomb. The risk is too great to try and trick him like that. So yes, there is a constant stream of emergency trucks to the city.
- And anyway, who's to say some people didn't starve or half-starve? Bane wasn't likely to care.
- You guys are factoring in the foodstuffs already in the city, right? i know it's only a few weeks, but the larders of thousands of people are going to be emptied when they're killed by the rebels. That's, what, a couple weeks? A month?
- There were 12 million people endangered by the blast, not necessarily 12 million people in the modest portion of the city which Bane's forces had cut off. We see how far the ring of explosions extends, and it doesn't look like a six-mile radius.
- There's no way you can bring in enough food to feed the people on that island? How do you think they got fed during normal times? There aren't any farms or other food sources on that island, the only way to get food there is from trucks. Normally these are private trucks owned by stores that sell that food. Instead, it's federal trucks looking to distribute the food equitably.
Bruce the Celebrity
- So Bruce Wayne is declared officially dead at the end of the movie, and Bruce moves to Italy with Selina. Great wrap-up ending... until someone with a camera phone sees arguably one of the (in-universe) world's most famous men hiding in plain sight and snaps a photo. Whoops.
- And then can't sell it to anyone besides a seedy tabloid because really, it's just someone who looks like Bruce Wayne, see, there are records that say he's dead and everything and this guy's named Matches Malone, just check his passport.
- Yeah, it's not like anyone would believe him, I mean that entire idea sounds way too far fetched since his death was confirmed and they held a funeral and everything. Also it's not like he would be any more famous than he already was before, since it doesn't seem like anyone revealed who Batman was and it would be really easy to just say Bruce Wayne died during the revolution. So yeah, a guy who looks like Bruce Wayne turning up in Italy really doesn't make much of a stir (there are plenty of people who look weirdly like other people, a local dog trainer near where I live looks almost exactly like Bill Murray, but I really doubt Bill Murray is moonlighting as a dog trainer in middle-of-nowhere America).
- Actually, that sounds suspiciously like something Bill Murray would do.
- That's Michael "Matches" Meloni. No relation to the actor, but they both have family from Sardinia. Just taking a tour of the old country for his honeymoon, with his wife Luna.
- Heck, lots of people in-Verse have probably noticed how Wayne looked an awful lot like that actor from The Fighter.
- Wanna bet Bruce's Clean Slate app can be targeted to delete only those pics that were taken after a certain date?
- In addition to all the above, Bruce has spent the previous eight years as a reclusive shut-in, only had a handful of opportunities to be cornered by the press prior to his disappearance and 'death'. There's a good chance most people outside of Gotham have forgotten what he looks like.
- "Oh, what's that? A picture of Bruce Wayne, the dead billionaire? The guy they've got official records for his death and everything? Hold up a second, let me fire up Photoshop, and I can make a picture that looks even better than this crap you're trying to sell me. Get the hell out of here."
- The same way that most people don't believe Elvis is alive despite regular pictures of him turning up in the less respectable newspapers?
- Oh yeah, I'm sure no one has ever fake their death before, especially if the guy is smart and has powerful friends. If I saw Donald Trump eating a burger in France, I would approach him or at least try to catch him on video. Mr. Trump could call himself "Billy Bob", I would still get suspicious and follow him.
- Except that (a) Donald Trump is someone who actively seeks the spotlight and (b) there's not a copious amount of evidence to suggest that Donald Trump's dead. Also, (c) whether he's Billy Bob or Donald Trump or what, you keep following that guy when he wants you to go away, there's a good chance you're facing a harassment charge and a restraining order.
Rocks Fall Talia Dies
- OK, so I accept that Talia dies as a result of that truck crash, but not Gordon? He's in the cargo bay with a large bomb (that is admittedly most likely secured somehow) when the crash happens. Talia had the benefit of being able to brace for impact while Gordon was effectively blind.
- Gordon had the advantage of not taking multiple near-direct hits from anti-vehicle artillery.
- There's some comic book physics in there, but I can see it: the truck's front got crumpled, protecting the back from the worst impact.
The Man With Two First Names
- "Leonid Pavel". Aaaaargh. Why does he have two first names instead of a first name and a last name? 23 years since the Berlin Wall fell, and Hollywood filmmakers still can't get Russian names right, even despite the TDKR crew doing plenty of research otherwise. At least the Russian dub corrected it...
- Do you have any idea how many people actually have two "first" names in the real world? There's a lot more than you think.
- For example, Bruce Wayne. Or... James Gordon. Hell, Robin John Blake has nothing BUT first names!
- It may be relatively common in the United States, but it is almost unheard of in Russia, which is where the doctor is from. The Russian dub changes it to the much more realistic surname "Pavlov."
- Having two first names is extremely common. What isn't common is having two first names, and no surnames. Or having people refer to you exclusively by your first names and not your surname, especially by professional reference (a "Doctor John Richard Smith" would be called Doctor Smith, not Doctor Richard.) You probably meant that it's common for some names to function as first names as well as surnames.
- Possibly his real last name is something English-speakers can't pronounce, so he uses his second first name as his surname for publications in that language.
- To clarify, neither family names that sound exactly like first names nor multiple given names in addition to a family name are terribly common in the Russian Naming Convention. A Russian name consists of one given name, one patronymic and at least one family name (if a person chooses to use two they get hyphenated, but that's very rare). "Pavel" doesn't work as either of the latter two - the patronymic form dervived from "Pavel" is "Pavlovich", while likely surnames derived from that given name are "Pavlov", "Pavlovsky", "Pavlovskikh", "Pavlenko" (likely to be of Ukrainian ancestry), Pavlich (ditto for Belarusian) and possibly others. Family names without any familial suffixes are not very common in Russia, even less so for family names derived from proper nouns. In short, you can safely bet that there isn't a single person in RL Russia with the last name "Pavel". If you need an in-universe explanation, it could be that he simplified his last name upon emigrating from Russia, or simply that their universe's Russian naming convention works differently.
- [Same user as above]...aaand one Google search later, I stand corrected. According to the website there is an old aristocratic family who was given the surname "Pavel" by Ivan the Terrible; at least 12 of their descendants are alive right now. Reality Is Unrealistic indeed.
- Sounds like a case of Accidentally Accurate.
- It may be a subtle reference to the Hush storyline, where Thomas Elliot first starts a conversation with Bruce about how they both have two first names. At first I handwaved it as too ridiculously subtle, since who would remember a scene from one out of a thousand possible storylines and then research russian first names to make a reference that no one would notice? The only person I could think that would go to that kind of research depths was...well Batman.
How Many Bats?
- I may be misremembering the details, but it goes like this: when Lucius presented the Bat, he said that "it does come in black". Which means there was more than one Bat, and that leads to the question: why didn't Bane's mooks use them when they seized the Batstuff?
- That may have been a joke on Fox's part (being an obvious Call Back to when they were first assembling the Batman persona in Begins). They might've just painted it.
- Or they're just a filthy disorganized rabble and none of them can figure out how to fly a super-advanced VTOL hovercraft.
- Or it got damaged when they blasted their way in through the floor.
- We do see a glimpse of a camo-painted Bat at the end of the movie. But yeah, flying an experimental aircraft isn't something that just anybody could do. In fact, the real VTOLs that the Bat imitates haven't taken off the ground commercially speaking because they are flying deathtraps until we can develop computer-guided controls advanced enough. As it is, they maneuver like a brick.
- When Bruce pulls up her record on his computer, it quite clearly says that Selina Kyle has no fingerprints on file. How is that possible, if she has as extensive a police record as they say she does (and when she gets in prison, they explicitly state that she had been to prison before when she was 16)?
- We see her using some sort of fake fingerprint trick that leaves the prints of a completely different person at the scene. Presumably she could cheat the police fingerprint procedure the same way, especially if they weren't prepared to the possibility that a 16-year old girl might have fake prints, and only wised up much, much later.
- Her prints might've been expunged when she turned 18 and was no longer a juvenile.
- Not since 2001. One of the things the Patriot Act did was ensure that your juvenile record followed you to adulthood. So unless Selina is 30 or over, she'd still have her record.
- Anne Hathaway is 30, so if we assume her character is the same age (or slightly older, depending on your view), this would work.
- If you look closely, when Bruce brings up Selina's file, it gives her date of birth as 1985, which would have made her 16 in 2001.
- So maybe the Patriot Act doesn't exist in the Nolanverse. If Gotham City takes the place of New York, then the League's attack from Batman Begins could've been its version of 9/11.
- The plane "crash" from the beginning should look slightly suspicious to any investigators, given how explosives were used on the aircraft in several places and the fuselage ends up at least a few miles from wings and tail. Of course, it being involved in a covert CIA operation, there might not actually be much of an investigation at all.
- I don't think Bane intended it to look or be confused for a random plane crash, they just needed to fake the Doctor's death.
The Exile Option
- Wait, how did the "exile" option work before the river froze over?
- The "court" sessions may not have begun until then. If they did, they could be given a chance to swim across the river, only to be shot if they made it far enough.
- In TDK, the river was apparently too wide to swim, given that the Joker was able to trap everyone on the island with his threats.
- In TDK, the "river" was the Chicago River. Gotham in TDKR is represented by New York City, and the condemned are sent out onto the East River, which you certainly would not want to try swimming across under normal circumstances.
- Nolanverse Ra's, lacking the immortality of his comic book counterpart, can't be the League's founder, since it existed centuries before he was born. Which brings up the question: is "Ra's al Ghul" his real name in this universe, or an alias like "Henri Ducard"? He's already been shown to choose a new decoy Ra's when the previous one is killed, so perhaps the name "Ra's al Ghul" is part of a Legacy Immortality plot, being passed through generations to whoever is the new leader of the League?
- If you assume Ducard wasn't the first Ra's and that he succeeded Ken Watanabe's Ra's (who presumably succeeded somebody else) added to the fact that he isn't exactly a public figure, you can go a long way to making a myth of an "immortal" Ra's. And bear in mind that when Bruce has his vision of Ducard/Ra's he talks about how "There's more than one form of immortality" - and an hour (film time) later, we see that Robin is taking over the mantle of Batman.
- And that's assuming the League is really as old as Ducard said it was. He could have been lying, or relating false history a previous incumbent invented to impress new recruits.
- Who is the man Bane refers to as "my brother" in the plane crash scene? Is he significant in some way, or is he just a member of Bane's army?
- He's just another member of Bane's army that Bane is inspiring camaraderie in so he'll go along with getting killed.
A Mook's Loyalty
- How does Bane inspire suicidal Undying Loyalty in anyone? Did all of them just work for the League of Shadows already? At least Joker had the excuse of hiring crazy people and threats of violence.
- It makes more sense when you think of the League of Shadows less like a highly organized ninja assassin group and more as a fanatical terrorist organization. Each member of his original army is a highly trained mercenary, so for training alone you're talking about months of indoctrination into the belief system. It's also suggested that Bane recruited from the pit, in which case his followers might feel indebted to him for getting them out of there. But more than anything, it's the way Bane builds himself; he's not just a big guy in a mask, he's a legend to them, he's a symbol.
- Even beyond the built in army Bane might have had from the Lo S, just listen to the way he talks. He's very enigmatic, and very eloquent. Historically, that's a huge part of how a person can amass a devoted following. Bane tells people what they want to hear, and he sounds good while he's doing it. Add to that the fact that he's physically impressive and has genius-level intelligence besides, and you have basically have a magnetic personality for the exact type of people Bane would want to follow him. Not to mention, all of that means more than a few of his men probably sided with him because they figure being on his side is better than being against him in any capacity.
- How did Blake know not only that Gordon was going to dive into a sewer pipeline and spill out somewhere, but what exit he is going to come out of?
- He knew that a teenager from the boys' home had died in the sewers while doing work for someone hidden down there, and his corpse had come out the same pipe. He took a guess that Gordon (whether alive or dead) might turn up at the same spot, and got lucky.
- Is a length of rope really going to make that much of a difference in a jump?
- He was only missing by inches so the weight of the rope could have easily played a part (it was damned heavy looking rope), but the movie suggests it was more psychological. With the rope Bruce had no fear of death as he knew the rope would save him. By jumping without the rope Bruce had the fear of death and so unconsciously gave everything he had in the jump.
- I don't know much about rock climbing, but shouldn't the prisoners have been able to improvise tools to help them climb? Even something as simple as a crude hammer and spike could have been used to secure a handhold into the stone and make a huge difference, right? They could have used the metal bars of the cells to do it.
- Using the metal bars of the cells means being able to break the metal bars free of the cells. Did you see an overabundance of masonry tools and loose cell bars in the prison? All of these "They could have used this or that to climb out of the pit" questions on this page presume that they had the items in question to use.
It's Bigger on the Inside
- Is it just me, or did the prison's 'hole' look much bigger from inside? Inside, it looks like a huge pit with a diameter of fifty or even a hundred feet. But when Bruce climbs out, the well doesn't look that big.
- Things look bigger from below. The camera looks up at Bane a lot for the same reason.
- So, Ms. Kyle is trying to escape Gotham to get the hell away from Bane and whatever he has planned. To do this she tries to take the train (or a plane, I can't remember if it was an airport or train station she got caught at), knowing that with her record it would be nearly impossible to slip through security. Why didn't she just steal a car and drive out of town?
- She may have thought it wasn't fast enough. Driving off of a densely populated metropolitan island with a limited amount of bridges couldn't have been done quickly. Also, she may not have been able to get a car. She probably couldn't rent a car if there were warrants out for her arrest (not sure how thorough car rental agencies are, but they at least do some kind of credit check), and pilfering a rich man's diamonds is probably easier than taking off with his Jaguar.
- She doesn't need a nice car. She just needs something that moves. In fact, an economy car over ten years old would be ideal, as it would blend in better and wouldn't have gps or top of the line anti-theft protection. And it would have taken her a few hours to drive out of the city; this was at least a few days before Bane enacted his plan.
- Or perhaps she thought that the government was the lesser of the two dangers. Bane obviously knew her, and he may not have let her skip town if she tried to drive out. He would have had, at that point, less ability to stop her if she tried to fly.
- She's just seen Bane beat and probably kill Batman, plus the revelation that Bruce is Batman and on top of that, Bane may still want to dispose of her. Not thinking clearly, She probably just wants to get out of Gotham as fast as possible.
- She also doesn't want to get out of Gotham — she wants to get far out of Gotham. Much quicker to get as far from Gotham as you possibly get by jumping on the next plane to wherever than it is to hire a rental car and drive.
- I know it would have really killed the action climax but why didn't Batman or Fox install non lethal weapons on the Bat? There are some very effective crowd control non lethal weapons out there. If batman would have riddled Bane's side with rubber bullets before the cops charged it would have saved a lot of lives and wouldn't have violated Batman's rules.
- "Non-lethal" is...a misleading term. While that would have likely caused less deaths than actual bullets, it still would have caused several from shots to the eyes, the throat, the chest. Rubber bullets are hard and hit with a lot of impact, and are meant to be fired via ricochet. More over, most of Batman's vehicular weapons are used more for anti-material purposes rather than anti-personnel. The idea of Batman ever having to fire on a large mob like that probably never crossed their minds when ordering or installing that many rubber bullets was still feasible, and by the time it became apparent that there would be a large scale battle, getting the supplies for that was no longer possible between the blockade and the time limit.
- The original loadout for the Bat was for anti-vehicle work. Bruce didn't have time to refit it when he returned to Gotham.
- You know I suspect far more people would escape the hole if they just gave a running start to their jumps, the platform was big enough and it shows everyone who attempts it starting that jump from a static point. I dont know much about gymnastics but isnt it common knowledge that a running start generally allows you to jump further?
- The platform was big enough for maybe two or three steps before falling off. Once you're that high up, you probably don't want to risk just running out of room or something. Plus it looked like the main problem wasn't distance but height, so it wouldn't have made much difference.
- Exactly why is Bruce in such poor health at the beginning of the film?
- Mostly it's just a bad knee, I think. That said, he just hasn't been taking very good care of himself.
- Alternately, he may have gotten into the habit of playing up how impaired he was, both to allay any possible belated suspicion of him having been Batman, and to keep people in general at bay, since many folks are still a bit uncomfortable around the disabled.
- Bear in mind that at the end of the last movie he got SHOT and then fell at least two stories. Sure, that was 8 years ago, but still.
- He's still able to run to escape the cops at the end though. The damage likely caught up with him afterward, but the fall didn't immediately wreck his knee.
- Adrenaline, plus he didn't have to run very far. He had parked the batpod a fairly short distance away.
- Exactly how old is Bane? His comments on Batman "fighting like a younger man" refer more to Batman's relentless effort despite being out of the game for eight years, but it's implied that he's younger or the same age as Batman. Yet Miranda/Talia is shown to be close to Bruce' age (who's pushing 40 at the start of the film), and Bane looked to be at least 20 in the flashback showing a no-older-than-8 year old Talia.
- I got the impression that Bane is older than Batman but the movie deliberately misleads us as to his age to make us think he's Ra's al Ghul's son, as a Red Herring to cover for Talia. That mask covers so much of his face, and distorts his voice so much, it's hard to tell how old he really is.
- I got the impression that Bane is in his late forties to early fifties. His comment about Batman fighting like a younger man is in direct reference to Bats taking an eight year break; Bane's been active as a mercenary full time since being kicked out of the league of shadows. He aged while still fighting, so he learned how to pace himself better. Bruce stopped cold turkey and when he got back into it, he was still fighting the same as he did eight years ago, even though his body could no longer perform at that level. Bane's demonstrating that he's Older and Wiser.
- There's really nothing set into stone, but let's think about the timeline we're working with here. Talia escapes the pit at 8-10 years old, while Bane can be assumed to be about 20. It's implied that the two of them trained in the League of Shadows for an extended period of time, but we're also told that Ra's got sick of seeing Bane, who reminded him of his guilt concerning what happened to his wife, and realized that he loved (whether platonically or otherwise) Talia to an extent that he couldn't allow. So, with this, the largest time gap that would work is probably about 10 years, when Talia would be 18-20 and Bane would be 30. At which point Bane is excommunicated and Talia leaves with him. Now Ra's is looking for a new heir, and Batman (if you'll excuse the horrible cheesiness of this) begins. Next comes the time gap as dictated by canon. BB and TDK together are meant to constitute a good year or so of time, so when you add the eight years from TDKR onto that you get about nine years of time passing, but we'll round up to ten to keep things clean. This makes Talia about 30, and Bane in his early 40s, twenty years, give or take, having passed since they were in the pit together. So Bane could easily be about the same age as Bruce. Of course, this is all conjecture, so Bane could also be older, but my point is just that it's entirely plausible that he's not.
- I too wondered about the "You fight like a younger man" line since Bane seemed to be mocking Bruce's age and I couldn't imagine how he could be more than a few years younger at most. Even if Talia is ten years younger than him (30ish) and Bane is only a few years older than her (Like maybe she was 12 when she escaped and he was 16) the age difference can only be a few years. Then I thought that maybe when Bane said that comment, he didn't mean it in a positive way. As in, "You fight like you are young, naive and inexperienced, compared to me" as opposed to "You have the strength and endurance of somebody who is younger than you are."
Talia's Death Wish
- Why does Talia want to die with Gotham City? It seems she has become the leader of the League of Shadows after her father died, but the League's mission still continues after Gotham is destroyed. Yet she makes no effort to get out Gotham during the 5 months before the nuke blows up, and during the climax she's about the set off the bomb while she's still within its explosion radius. She isn't depicted as a suicidal person or anything, and the League would still need a leader, so why doesn't she just get out and let someone else detonate the bomb?
- Talia explcitly states that she didn't care about Ras' mission until he died. Having not quite bought into his philosophy, it seems likely that she was just in it for the revenge and didn't really care what came after.
- If he didn't even care about Ras' mission, why was she willing to die for it? If it was just revenge, why didn't she leave the city before the bomb went off? The revenge didn't require for her to be in Gotham while it happened.
- I figure that plan A was for both Bane and Talia to skip town shortly before the bomb went off, stop by the Pit to finish Bruce off so that he'd die knowing he'd failed utterly, and then go on to do League-of-Shadows stuff (whether fulfilling Ra's vision for the League or simply reordering it in accordance with their ideals). That plan gets shot when Bruce escapes the Pit and Batman signals his return to Gotham; now, to make sure they get him, they need to stay in Gotham to do it. Of course, considering the hell both of them had been through and how screwed up they were, add League of Shadows training on top of that, we've got two people who don't particularly care if they die, so long as they die accomplishing their objective. In this case, revenging Ra's on Batman. So in short, they probably didn't set the whole thing up intending to die, but dying was something they found acceptable, so long as they died victorious.
- I don't think it goes like that. First of all, even though Bruce was back in Gotham, Talia didn't have to personally be there to kill Bruce. All she would've needed to do was give the remote control to someone else (like Bane), escape Gotham, and then, immediately when one of her henchmen spots Batman in the city, the guy with the remote presses the button. Bruce would've died with Gotham. And it's not like she wanted to face Bruce herself and reveal the truth before escaping, because she had a chance to do that too. After she'd stabbed Bruce, he was at her and Bane's mercy, they could've killed him there and then, and Talia would've still had the time to escape, leaving Bane to detonate the bomb. But she chose to press the button instead, so clearly escape was never an option for her, and she just wanted to die for no discernible reason.
- I think she did, always, want to face Bruce and reveal who she was in person; in the Plan A scenario I imagined above, she would have simply done it in the Pit, maybe even allowing him to believe she'd come to rescue him before sliding the knife in. It's not just about killing him, it's about breaking and then killing him, and as the events unfold in the movie, the first breaking didn't stick, so Talia pulled the backstab/reveal of her true self to try again, followed up by the "poetic" touch of Bruce dying in the explosion that kills Gotham. Bane is more pragmatic about it; once Talia's out of sight, he goes for the kill anyway, so he would seem to partially agree with your assessment of what should be done. And while I don't particularly think either of them was a Death Seeker per se, neither of them had any problem with dying either. After all, we're not talking calm, rational people but a couple of deeply emotionally (and physically, in Bane's case) scarred people who've spent years nursing bitterness and anger. I think "twisting the knife" is a higher priority for Talia in particular than "escaping with my skin intact".
- I don't disagree, but the fact remains that Talia managed to act out his poetic revenge, revealing her true identity and stabbing Bruce, and after that she still would've had the opportunity to escape before the bomb goes off, but instead she chose to activate the remote control, thinking that the bomb would go off. Remember that Talia didn't know about the jamming device until after she pressed the button, so at this point, if she didn't want to die, she could've tied up Bruce, leave the remote to Bane, escape Gotham and watch the broken Bruce die with his city. But instead, by pressing the button, she chose to die with Gotham, and the reason for this is never explained.
- She had just over ten minutes to get over six miles away from an island that was under lockdown and blockade. Escape wasn't really viable at that point. The only readily available transport that could get that distance was the Bat, and she A) didn't know it's full capabilities as far as speed goes, and B) didn't know how to fly the thing.
- Well, since it was that hard to leave Gotham, why didn't Talia leave sooner? Like the day before the bomb was gonna go off? At that point she still thought Bruce was in the Pit, so what reason did she have to stay in Gotham until the very last day? Surely she had enough faith in Bane being able to carry out the plan that she didn't have wait until the last possible moment to escape?
- Also, I got the feeling that Bane, at least, was intending to stay until the bomb went off. I got more of a "true believer" vibe from him, compared to Talia who seemed to be more in it for the revenge. Just my interpretation of the film, though.
- Firstly, the League of Shadows was probably pretty badly crippled after the events of Begins, so there probably wasn't much of a League to lead beyond whoever Talia and Bane brought with them to the city, which could be partly, mostly or even entirely new recruits. Whoever hadn't had their ass kicked by Batman first time around might have been hunted down by the UG government, who don't take kindly to attempts to gas their cities- think of this movie as the last hurrah of the League. Secondly, and on a related point, if the government thought the League of Shadows or anyone connected to the much worse attack in this film was still out there, or had so much of an inkling that the League survived in any form, they would destroy them. And thirdly, escape was not a possibility because Bane and Talia had made sure that Gotham was totally locked down. Bane and Talia are both pretty depressed people who haven't enjoyed their lives all that much up to that point, and if they survived or escaped they probably wouldn't get away with it as there would be a massive investigation into the single-worst terrorist act anywhere in the world, ever, one that probably started when Bane first took over the city if not earlier. This is about revenge, its about power (that it, excercising power- the bullied becomes the bully), and its about proving that Ra's Al Ghul was right but didn't go far enough. It was never about surviving, but dying for ideals- extremely screwed up ideals including vengeance, but ideals nonetheless.
- And "she isn't depicted as suicidal" goes out the window when she tries to commit suicide. Everything we've known about her up to The Reveal has been a lie, or a flashback to years before (which gives her plenty of reasons to be suicidal), and besides that there are plenty of suicidal people out there who hide their suicidal tendencies perfectly, and furthermore the mentality of a suicide bomber is often very, very different from a normal suicidal person. And neither are restricted to a single uniform type of person or motive.
- Bane and Talia both seemed to be in it for the long haul. As was mentioned above, with how effectively they had Gotham locked down, it would have been very difficult for either of them to leave. Likewise, no mention of an escape plan is ever made, and no evidence of any such plan exists. Destroying Gotham seemed less to do with "Continuing the work of the League of Shadows" and more to do with "Completing Ra's Al Ghul's last project", and they were both ready to give their lives in service of that goal. Ra's was a visionary leader with grandiose plans. Bane and Talia were, by comparison, playing a game of follow the leader, and seemingly had no plans beyond "Destroy Gotham, destroy Batman, victory is achieved". Talia didn't come off as suicidal because she wasn't suicidal. It wasn't about suicide. It was about self-sacrifice; she was prepared to die in service to her goal.
- Also remember that nothing that happened after Bruce escape the Pit was in the plan. Talia revealing herself to Bruce only came as a necessary consequence after she stabbed him to protect Bane. Pushing the button also came as an immediate consequence of that, and in her position, it's an understandable decision. The most important thing to her was that Batman and Gotham be destroyed; at that moment, she had Batman right in her face. For all she knew, he was about five seconds away from summoning up a great well of strength, kicking her in the face, grabbing the detonator from her, shoulder-throwing her into Bane, and vanishing in a puff of theatricality, then hunting down the reactor core and ruining their plan forever. With that as a very distinct possibility, the alternative of "blow it now" becomes very appealing to someone who values their endgoal over their life. If she just wanted to die, she would have pushed the button a long time ago. That wasn't a suicide attempt, it was a last-resort effort to win the game.
- Why does Bane keep grabbing his lapels? Is he insecure about his swag?
- Just a habit of his. I know a guy who constantly tips his hat to people even when he isn't wearing a hat, which is more than half the time.
- He's cold.
- Just saw the film again with a buddy of mine who played high school football who commented on this; he assumed that those straps/suspenders are likely rather heavy, and Bane(or more likely Tom Hardy while rehearsing the role) developed the habit of grabbing them and pulling them off his chest slightly to make it easier to breath. My friend noted that he would do the same thing with his shoulderpads when he played ball, and that it became such a habit for him that he'd do it even when just wearing a jersey.
- All There in the Manual. The injuries Bane sustained included a crippling back injury, and the suspenders are what let him walk around like normal-he holds them that way because it makes it slightly easier still. Leads to a bit of Fridge Brilliance when you consider Bane crippled Bruce in a similar fashion so he likely did it on purpose, and the symbolism of Bane as his Evil Counterpart since Bruce needed that leg brace to get over his own injury.
- Why does Batman fly around for two minutes trying to lose the anti-air missiles? Did it not occur to Lucius to put flares into his aerial combat vehicle?
- The vehicle was meant for urban riot control. Evading missiles was probably not part of its intended design.
- The Bat does drop flares at the beginning of the missile attack. They diverted all but two of the spread of missiles.
More on the Rope
- How is it that no one deduced that the rope actually pulls the climber back when making the leap to the next platform? Especially after Talia figured it out by accident and made a pretty fussy example of herself?
- The rope doesn't actually pull anyone back. Fear is what limits people's ability to jump to the next platform, and the rope is a safety measure to keep the prisoner from falling to their death. Discarding the rope doesn't increase the range of your jump, discarding the rope is an indicator that you are not afraid of dying in the leap.
- No, fear is diminished by the presence of the rope, because the rope would break such a fall. That's why the doctor tells Bruce that he fails because he isn't afraid of death. You have to be paying attention to the rope and not the climber, but it actually does tighten mid-jump.
- No, look closely at the rope. There's still slack in it when the jumpers fall short.
- The rope doesn't tighten. It is stated several times that the psychology of the jump is what is holding everyone back. With the rope acting as a safety net, the jumper subconsciously holds back. When the jumper is risking their life, they give it their all. If the rope were physically holding them back, don't you think the jumpers would have realized that after an attempt or two?
- On that note, there could well have been many, many jumpers over the years who tried it without the rope- and, well, SPLAT! You should be afraid to jump without the rope, after all.
- When Bane slams Bruce's back over his knee, shouldn't Bruce's vertebrae have gotten crushed, not dislocated? Also, later on, a fellow prisoner in the Pit punches Bruce's spinal column back into place. Is that even possible?
- On the first, not necessarily. Vertebrae and intervertebral disks can shatter, yes, but the conditions depend on more than just the strength of the blow. In order for something to be crushed, it must resist the opposing force so that it crumbles under the stress; in the case of a spinal column, the vertebra would be crushed if it were stressed past the flexibility of the supporting structure, which would then begin to "push it back." Bane's knee pushed against the vertebra, applying a force equal to the weight of Bruce's body and armor accelerated by gravity and Bane's upper body strength. But the armor absorbed part of the force (this is the same armor Bruce used to fall off a building and land on his back on top of a cab in the previous movie) so the only issue was that the force was concentrated on a small surface area, pushing the vertebra out of alignment but not so far inwards that it would be stressed past its "crush" threshold. As for the second: yes, it's very possible. Dislocated bones can be reset just by "popping" them back into their correct position, so long as the surrounding tissues allow this kind of motion (if a muscle or cartilage gets in the way, it WOULD require surgery.) The problem would be that vertebrae are separated by disks, and if THOSE pop out of alignment along with the vertebrae, then Bruce would either have to be incredibly lucky or he'd be screwed until he could find a hospital.
- I can accept that Bruce's armor absorbed part of the blow, but shouldn't his vertebra have been pushed inward, not outward?
- Depends on where Bane brought his knee down on Batman's back. According to the doctor, the dislocated vertebrae was located in his Lumbar arch; So when Bane broke Batman's back, he used force to shift Bruce's upper back out of alignment with his lower back and the doctor corrected it by simply realigning the vertebra that were sticking out.
Resignations Not Accepted
- Didn't Fox resign at the end of the last movie? Why is he still running the company? He made it pretty clear Bruce crossed the line, even if it was a one time thing.
- No, he didn't resign. He made it clear that he didn't approve of Bruce's sonar technology, but-since it was a one time thing-he didn't go any further.
- He was going to resign until Bruce gave him a code that would destroy the surveillance contraption that he disapproved of. We see him using it at the end of that movie. He explicitly said that he wasn't going to stay in the company if the machine stayed.
Why Don't You Just Shoot Him?
- Why didn't the CIA agent on the plane just shoot Bane when he had the chance?
- Any number of plausible reasons present themselves. Maybe he wanted him alive for questioning on League activities or for government credit, maybe he thought he'd have time later when he wasn't in a plane, maybe he was not actually authorized to kill at all (note that he threatens Bane's men, but never actually dispatches any of them). As with many headscratchers, it's open for interpretation but thankfully not a plothole.
- Because he was under the impression that Bane was one of the prisoners and he didn't need to shoot him. It wasn't until Bane's para-commandos suddenly dropped in and started shooting through the windows that he realized how serious the situation was, and by that point Bane was standing up, shrugging off his restraints, and kicking the crap out of the CIA agents.
- The CIA's purpose is to gather information, not to assassinate people willy-nilly.
- Why don't the prisoners team up to reach the ledge, such as forming a human chain or something?
- Honestly, I find it hard to believe that the prisoners would attempt crazy acrobatics with other prisoners when they risked violently falling to their deaths. There are a number of hypothetical escape routes (i.e. building a bridge, making climbing tools, etc.) that are discussed in different entries above, but I think the blanket answer has to be that methods other than climbing have all been tried by the prisoners and don't work.
- It's possible that the place does have guards, but they only come to look down once or twice per day, so they wouldn't be likely to see a climbing ritual, but would notice any more complex (thus time-consuming) escape attempts.
- They only have one rope, so only one person would survive if they mess up.
- ^ Combine this with the simple fact of prison grudges and the possibility that whoever's tied to the rope my deliberately sabotage the attempt to screw you over, and nobody's going to be willing to try crazy acrobatics that depend on being able to trust everyone around you.
- For the original prison at least, the reason they didn't co-operate more was that they were all a bunch of utter Ax-Crazy bastards and you would have to be crazier than the lot of them to think they could be trusted all that much. Or that it was a good idea to let them out.
What Does He See In Her?
- What made Bruce fall in love with Selina? She stole from him, then sold him out to Bane, indirectly setting in motion the events in the second half of the movie. Are we really supposed to believe her change of heart at the end was enough for Bruce to forgive everything and elope with her?
- Firstly, Bruce sees a kindred spirit in Selina: a woman who has risen from a very bad situation and made many mistakes along the way, but never let her anger make her a monster. She wants to be free (much like Bruce, although free of her record, not her emotional/superhero baggage) and by the end of the movie she has acted selflessly and redeemed herself. Secondly, who's to say that Bruce is automatically "in love"? It's not like they are shown to be married or anything. Seemingly Bruce is dating her because of her afore-mentioned redemption. And we can hope things go well (I hope they have have four kids who they name Dick, Tim, Jason, and Carrie).
- Plus at this point, she's pretty much the only woman he knows well enough to spend his life with.
- By rights she should feel insulted if Bruce ever compared his life to hers. He grew up rich and became Batman because he wanted to. Selina took to thievery to survive, and with her criminal record she couldn't get a legal job if she wanted to. Don't get me wrong, Bruce and Selina are one of my favorite comic book pairings, but the movie doesn't sell their romance nearly as much as Bruce and "Miranda", so it felt very Strangled by the Red String.
- "Should" feel insulted? How about she is insulted? When she and Bruce are talking at the masquerade party, she outright tells him to not compare their lives because they're so different. But as the movie progresses, she warms up to him, particularly the fact that he did choose to become Batman and that for all his wealth and power he chose to spend it protecting people who didn't know him and didn't appreciate him. The fact that he wanted to be Batman - that he wanted to be a hero and protect Gotham, to the point of giving everything, including his life, for it - is what makes her love him.
- Bruce treats her with respect as an equal and never stops believing in the good inside her. Probably the first man do so. Bruce on the other hand spent a life time holding Rachel up as a paragon of virtue who was going to share the rest of his life with. Her demise leaves Bruce stunted Loving a Shadow of a woman who could not possible lived up to his fairy tale ending. Selina (Directly in their conversations and indirectly by inspiring him to investigate her break in) breaks him out of this and inspires him to pursue a life outside of his shell. Coupled with the shared desire as stated above to seek a fresh start. Its not love on his side straight away. But he is probably attracted enough to at least see where it goes. with all the new free time on his hands.
- Christian Bale stated in an interview that he believed Bruce was attracted to her because she makes him laugh, and he finds her fascinating.
- She's really, really freakin' hot.
- Selina, you might notice, is the one ally who learns his secret, yet never criticizes him to his face about it. Alfred tells him over and over that it'll get him killed and is an unhealthy obsession; Fox argues that his gadgets give him more power than any man should have; Rachel rejects him because his crime-fighting alter-ego had displaced the younger Bruce she'd remembered. Even Blake, who empathizes with Bruce's vendetta against criminals, was disappointed that his hero walked away from his crusade for eight years, allowing himself to be vilified. But Selina doesn't see anything about Bruce's crimefighting deeds as wrong; she's a self-justifying lawbreaker herself, who might quibble over his tactics for logistical reasons or doubt that Gotham itself is worthy of him, but won't condemn him for his choices.
- In addition to the above points, well, what makes anyone fall in love with someone else? The heart wants what the heart wants.
Faking the Dead
- Why does Bruce fake his own death? The Batman part makes sense, but why feel the need to fake Bruce Wayne's death and traumatize Alfred? He could make a clean start without doing this, or at least without hurting his faithful butler so much. Heck, he could live in Wayne Manor while the city rebuilds and leave at his leisure.
- Because he wants to cut all ties to his former life. He's unable to quit being Batman unless he also quits being Bruce Wayne.
- In two of the three films, the villains have known his identity and it's cost his friends. He did have to "kill" Bruce Wayne to protect Alfred, Gordon, Fox, etc. But he did try to ease Alfred's pain, it wasn't a coincidence that he chose to have breakfast in the exact same italian cafe that Alfred mentioned earlier in the film.
- Bruce thought he had already retired the Batman then one day some random cop showed up telling him to get back out there. That cop is still in Gotham. Gordon knows his identity so do any number of Bane's followers. He would not have been able to stay anywhere as Bruce Wayne without knowing that it was only a matter of time before either somebody would knock on his door asking for Batman to come back or somebody would knock on his door with an assault team there to kill him.
- TV footage of the Bat blowing up over Gotham Harbor would've been broadcast all over the planet within minutes of the event. Bruce didn't even know where Alfred was at the time, so there's no way he could have gotten a message to him before his butler saw the news story, and assumed that Batman had finally gotten himself killed in his crusade.
- Bruce Wayne's death was already faked when he vanished off the face of the Earth following Bane's takeover, and was never seen again. Batman's identity was on thin ice already in the previous film, when it was explicitly demonstrated that the paper trail connecting his tech to Wayne Industries could be followed. Having Bruce Wayne spontaneously return from the grave at the exact time that Batman returned to Gotham would have broken any illusions about his identity. Beyond that, Bruce didn't have a life to return to; he was bankrupt, he'd cut ties with Alfred, Rachel was dead, Miranda was secretly Talia, Wayne Industries had told him to take a walk...trying to put it all back together in a ruined city while trying to resist the urge to take up the Batmantle again would have been, in all honesty, more trouble than it's worth, and would also have forced him to either hold back Selina from her goal of starting a new life, or let her go without him while he tries to put together pieces of a life he never actually wanted to live in the first place, the billionaire playboy. Letting the people who loved him know that he was okay while, at the same time, leaving with Selina to start a new life for himself was the best decision he could have made at that point.
- Why didn't most, or at least a decent chunk, of Gotham's citizens evacuate the moment they heard that there was a masked criminal with rumors of terrorist planning lurking around? They've been through this twice, shouldn't they notice the pattern and get while the getting is good before the trouble starts in earnest (i.e., before the inevitable "trap them" stage)? I'd be halfway to Metropolis the moment I heard the words "mask", "terrorist", and an ominous codename. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, I have problems with pattern recognition.
- Because there was no talk of a masked criminal with a possible terrorist plot. The police completely blew off Gordon's warning, so that the only people who actually knew about the whole "underground army led by a masked supervillain" thing were a handful of cops with no incentive to talk to the press. The robbery at the stock exchange was pretty public, but as far as anyone knew, Bane and his men were just ambitious submachine gun toting robbers. The press was also distracted by the return of Batman, so that they focused on him instead of Bane. By the time anyone knew there was a bonafide masked supervillain running around, the bridges had already been blown and Bane had taken over.
- More to the point, why do they believe Bane when he says that the Mayor/Commissioner conspired to lie about who Harvey Dant was? Anyone who's seen the last film knows he's telling the truth but why the citizens of Gotham didn't see him taking Gordon's speech. I know there's nobody I'd trust more than a psychotic terrorist!
- Did anyone believe Bane besides the prisoners that obviously wanted to escape? Not really, no one wanted to question the crazy terrorist.
- Okay, imagine this. No one believes what Bane says. Everyone just outright tells Bane off and refuses to believe a word about his "speech" regarding Gordon and Dent. What does this do to Bane's plans? ....not a damned thing. He still has Tumblers and an army of angry convicts with guns at his command and a disaffected lower class he can whip up into a murderous riot and a nuclear bomb. The speech was completely irrelevant. It was all theatricality and deception.
- He doesn't have to make every single person in the crowd believe him 100%. All Bane has to do is plant the seeds of doubt. At least one person in that mob probably walked away thinking everything they had ever believed in for the past eight years was a complete lie; that there were no white knights, that there was no good to be found in any part of Gotham. If one person believes that, others will follow. It's all downhill from there.
- What sort of injury could a person be inflicted with that would leave them in constant pain (enough to be a serious disability to the likes of Bane) yet also leave them ambulatory?
- Oh, I don't know... Maybe HIS NOSE AND LIPS RIPPED OFF???
- But would that cause him to be in constant pain? I can certainly see that injury in particular being painful to receive, but eventually it's going to heal - granted, heal in an unsightly way - but wouldn't necessarily leave him in a permanent state of agony. Plenty of people receive severe facial injuries and aren't in perpetual pain.
- Someone pointed out that there's actually a large scar along his back down his spine, indicating that his injuries were far more extensive than just those to his face.
- You forget the story the doctor gave about operating on Bane and messing up his spine. It was one of the first discussions bruce has with his cell-mates. Also, see this article for info on a cut scene that detailed it a bit more.
- I could be recalling things that never happened, but I thought I heard a line or two about the child of Ra's breaking out during a time of plague, or something like that. Because of that, I assumed assumed that Bane had a particularly nasty, plague-induced wound that will never go away. When your face (I assumed it was some sort of lack-of-nose) is bleeding 24/7 for your entire life, not only does it undoubtedly hurt, but could definitely use something to try and stave off extreme blood loss. Enter re-breather.
- Yeah, there's never anything like that said at any point in the movie. You're recalling something that never happened.
- Actually it is explicitly said that Bane was injured during a "time of plague"; when we're first introduced to the prisoners who care for Bruce and they give the explanation for Bane's mask; time of plague, flash back showing prisoners wearing cloth masks to cover their mouths and noses, shot of the doctor operating on someone, explanation that the doctor(the guy who tells Bruce how to make the jump) botched Bane's surgery after he was attacked, leaving him in constant pain.
- From the shot of Bane when he gets rescued by Ra's and the league we see that there's blood on the bandages on his nose and jaw, so I'm guessing he has permament nerve damage from the botched surgery.
- The impression I got from the film, Word of God notwithstanding, is that Bane's constant pain comes from the fact that he is addicted to whatever drug he's on, and not so much his original injuries. He probably wasn't really hurt that bad, but is now so hooked on the painkillers that being off them for a short time causes immediate, painful withdrawals.
Blake and Gordon's Drive
- There is a scene of Blake and Gordon driving about half way through the movie. This is after the Fall of Gotham montage, but well before Bruce comes back. As they are driving, there is a lingering shot of all the city lights and the car stalling in the way that was established by Bruce's/Batman's EMP devices. Except, as mentioned, Bruce wasn't even close to returning by that point and there were no other shots like that in the movie that didn't involve either Bruce's cane, the Batpod, or The Bat. So, what the hell was it? It was never mentioned in the movie by Blake or Gordon and there was no evidence that Bane's men ever had control of any of The Bats. I suppose it could have been just more destruction of the city causing it, but it was certainly shot to evoke the EMP device.
- I assumed it was power to the city failing/being turned off.
- It would certainly be in the league's favor if they held control of the Gotham City power grid.
- Bane had access to the entire applied sciences division; presumably he had at least one of everything Bruce had. He did have at least one Bat, but it's presumed elsewhere on this page that none of his men could figure out how to fly the thing. Presumably if the EMP device could be installed in a cane, the batpod, and the bat, it's an independent device that Bane could employ through other methods.
Going By Robin
- Why was John Blake embarrassed of his first name?
- Probably because it's generally a girl's name.
- I know a couple of boys who names are Robin.
- Some people consider that name to be "cute." In The Batman, before his parents die, Robin is an Embarrassing Nickname for Dick Grayson, for example.
- Blake also did a few years in the boy's home; it's rather likely that he would taken a less ostentatious name when around the other boys in the rough parts of Gotham.
- How did Selina manage to steal Bruce's car by claiming to be his wife? Bruce Wayne was one of the most famous people in the city, and judging by the paparazzi's remarks, still pretty well known. It would like one of us managing to steal Donald Trump's car by pretending we are Mrs. Trump. Wouldn't the valet would have questioned her, even if she had the ticket?
- Valets don't last long if they don't do as their rich patrons demand. Implied to have gone on off-screen: she presents the ticket, he goes and gets the car, and he doesn't ask questions.
- ...is Donald Trump not married?
- The only reason the average person knows what Donald Trump's family looks like is because he's an attention whore. The same could be said for any other rich/famous person talk and portrayed in the media. Yes Bruce Wayne is famous, but he's been reclusive for years. It's not that far of a stretch for Selina to convince the valet that she's his new wife who turned Bruce's life around and is bring him back into the `public eye or something along those lines.
- Also, she's a professional, highly-skilled conwoman.
Yet Even More Tunnel Cops Again Some More
- The film shows the cops being given letters or instructions through a metal grate. The grate couldn't be higher than ten feet off the ground and world definitely be big enough for a man to climb through if the bars were sawn or welded through. Why didn't someone get the cops a hacksaw or a welding torch?
- Bane's guards patrolling the area with assault weaponry, who would notice the cops trying to cut or weld their way free, for one thing. They didn't even risk trying to get a couple of the cops free through a manhole cover until the night before the bomb was to go off.
- When Bruce saves Gordon from his 'execution,' he throws his sharp bat thingys at a few of the mooks. They collapse instantly. How does that work? They might be modified with bat-tech, but drugs wouldn't work that quickly or probably even penetrate 90% of the time and I don't think an electrical shock would cause instant unconsciousness.
- This sort of thing happened in two of this film's primary inspirations. They're supposed to be drugs.
- Instant Sedation is a common trope.
- I'm wondering why the first guy had time to check the needle before passing out, while everyone out was down and out the second they got hit.
- Reality Is Unrealistic. This happens when you're using weaponry relying on the target's own body to distribute it. Sedatives can take varying times to affect different people based on things like body mass and genetics, especially when you're using pre-applied sedatives instead of specifically-tailored doses to their particular medical conditions. Unless Batman had the exact medical history and body weight of every one of those goons and had sedatives tailored to each man specifically (admittedly, this is Batman so that's not that farfetched) then there's no guarantee that all of them would go down instantly. The last goon was just hefty enough or tough enough that it took a couple of seconds longer to affect him.
- Also, whether the needles struck an artery, fat, or muscle would have an impact on how quickly the drugs they carried were distributed to the targets' nervous systems. Even Batman can't throw accurately enough to guarantee a hit on a blood vessel every time; the last goon could've gotten lucky about where the dart penetrated.
Bane's Plan Again Some More
- So Bane has literally no idea that the Dent Act and the peace of Gotham was based on a lie at all before coming into contact with Gordon and his letter. So what the hell was he planning on doing to break Bruce's spirit from the 8 years before the movie takes place? Seriously, what was the plan before they found that info out, because the whole speech before releasing the prisoners and placing Bruce in the prison to see his city destroyed simply wouldn't have been possible without knowledge of Dent being. It just doesn't make sense.
- Bane and the League at large believe Gotham to be hopelessly corrupt. They would not have had a problem finding an angle to exploit. The Dent Act just so happened to fall right into their hands and was the handiest to release a ton of prisoners out into the streets; without the letter's intervention, they presumably would have found some other way to justify the mass chaos. The overthrow of Gotham's wealthy and the mob rule all happened before Bane's reading the confession; that just had the added effect of screwing Gordon's public perception and providing an excuse to release the Blackgate prisoners.
- It has been stated that any organised crime is pretty much gone and there only remains a small amount of street crimes left. In other words Gotham has become a place you want your kids to grow up in the 8 years between films, what would their explanation have been to get people to riot?
- Probably along the lines that the rich is getting richer and richer while the poor is getting poorer and poorer. Most people go into crime out of desperation and now that organised crime is gone, it's even that much harder for them to make a living.
- The League of Shadows is a very dogmatic organization; once a city reaches a certain level of corruption, both moral and legal, they believe the only way to fix it is by destroying it. Their reaction to the Dent Act getting passed would be denial and disbelief; it has to be a fraud because Gotham's not a crater, so it has to still be corrupt. Also, Word of God is that the city still is very corrupt, just not infested with the mafia. It's idyllic on the surface, but you look below the surface and it all starts falling apart. The league was scoping out Gotham for eight years before enacting plan b, so they would have figured this out fairly quickly even without specific knowledge of the Dent cover up. Thirdly, the corruption of the city is secondary; Bane and Talia are destroying the city as one long, extended middle finger to Bruce Wayne for killing Ras. If they hadn't found out about the Dent Act they might have simply denounced it as a violation of civil liberties because that's what it is, but that doesn't matter.
Yet Again More With Bane's Age
- So was Bane like sixty or something at the time of this film? Because he was clearly in his mid twenties in the flashback sequence and Talia was like nine but is now in her mid thirties meaning at least something like three decades has passed, so how old was Bane? Also his speech to the Bat about him fighting like a young man thus doesn't make sense considering he's an OAP himself?
- Eh, the vague nature of the character's ages is probably purposeful. We know that Bane was probably at least twenty when he is injured in the pit. Talia could be as old as twelve. This could be a stretch, but Bane need not be more than a few years older than Batman really (we just don't know for sure).
- He very well could be sixty. Bane keeps himself in pretty decent shape. I've seen men aged sixty in as a good a shape that looked not a day over 45.
- He might have been a teenager, putting his age in his 40s.
- Bane was mocking Batman for fighting like a young man, not for being an old one. Bane, himself, is as old as or older than Bruce, but he paces himself sensibly and uses maneuvers which are appropriate for his age and fitness.
What a Twist!
- With the revelation of the twist, what on earth was Bane actually talking about for the majority of the film if he never actually climbed out of the pit? "Born in the Darkness" telling that devoted guy that the, "fire rises" and stuff? Was he just winging it or something and hoping it sounded cool?
- Well, the pit is referred to repeatedly as the place where Bane realized himself, realized the place of evil in the world, and generally became the angry badass he is throughout the film. So perhaps it's a rebirth if not a birth. Also, he could literally been born there like Talia which would explain his devotion to protecting her.
- It's metaphorical. He says he was born in the dark, etc., because he considers himself to be a man of evil (necessary evil, mind you). Bruce Wayne adopts the dark to do good, while Bane has the advantage in that he exists in darkness. The fire rises is both a catchy advertisement tool and referring to their greater plan having begun.
- In other words, theatricality and deception.
- He was born in Santa Prisca, as in the comics, which is much darker than the Pit. The fire rises thing was just his slogan.
- Er, no? That's where he was born in the comics, true, but Bane's past has never been confirmed to be the same past as his comic counterpart.
Bane the Believable
- When Bane reads out Gordon's speech about Dent outside the prison, why should anyone believe he's reading a genuine document, and not just something he made up?
- It's also funny to note that, during this speech, the cheering of the inmates was happening INSIDE the prison, while Bane spoke outside. For all his bluster, and rhetorical questioning, he would have received not a sound in response. Would have been quite sad to see.
- Why would people believe Bane's claims? Because of the large number of mercenaries with guns and the nuclear bomb he has that say you'd damned well believe it or otherwise. Either way, whether or not it was true was irrelevant. It just gave him something else to use, and it is obvious that he was not reading the exact words, since he only read a couple of sentences before moving to the next page. He could have stood in front of the prison and done the Macarena, and the outcome would have been the same, just with Ear Worm faux-Latino dance music instead of a populist speech. The prisoners would have gotten loose and Gotham's elite would have been ransacked.
- While I agree it probably doesn't matter whether the people believe it or not (he just wants to plant the seeds of doubt) it bugged me that Gordon acts as if he's been gut punched when he hears it, as opposed to saying "Like anyone would believe that".
- Why? Gordon is, at his heart, an honest man. This is something that had been bothering him for years and which destroyed his marriage. This is something he's been wanting to tell people for nearly a decade. What gives you any sense that he's that much of a practiced liar that his first reaction to hearing the truth that he knows is true and wanted out in the first place is going to be to dismiss it for anyone who's listening?
- In the movie, why did Bruce's charities only cover boy orphans? Why were there only boy orphans going to live in the former Wayne Manor, now a boy's home? It feels like a jarring gender inequality question.
- The boy's home we saw in the film was likely only one of the charities that Wayne covered. We saw it because Blake has a connection to it, and as for the ending, the manor doesn't specify that it only takes in boys.
- There's no evidence that Wayne Enterprises only funded boy's homes. The focus on boy's homes was because Blake specifically brought them up.
- It's also possible that there are more boys' homes than girls' homes that need Wayne's support. Statistically, orphaned girls are somewhat more likely to be adopted than orphaned boys.
- It isn't JUST the boy orphans, it's specifically stated that the house and grounds be used for one purpose and one purpose only for 'the housing and care of the cities at-risk and orphaned children'.
- Ok, here is the sequence of events in the Trojan Prisoner ploy Bruce uses. 1) Bruce Wayne has Selina pretend to capture him, and is brought to Fox and Miranda Tate 2) Selina takes Fox and Bruce out, then knocks out a couple of Bane's mercenaries, and take they leave right in front of Miranda 3) He rescues Gordon who tells him that Bane has Miranda 4) Cue finale. What gives? How did Miranda not escape with them? Heck, why do they act like Gordon is the last person to see her? Additionally, why does Miranda not prepare Bane for Batman's return. It's as if in scene 2) she was not intended to be present at all for the scene to make sense.
- Bruce could only get either Lucius or Miranda out to avoid suspicion. Because Lucius could actually stop Bane (or so Bruce thinks), he chose Lucius and was in fact encouraged by Miranda. When Bruce asks Gordon about Miranda, his original intent was probably to break her out as Batman. That does seem a bit of a Hand Wave and I've got nothing for the second point though.
- It doesn't make that much sense, but it would reinforce that Bruce Wayne and Batman weren't the same person since Batman is asking about something that Bruce would already know.
On Thin Ice
- I can buy Batman making a giant Bat symbol out of petrol on the bridge. I can buy the petrol being lit on fire on top of the ice. What I cannot buy is Batman standing perfectly still on the thin ice. With all of his armour and weapons. Can someone try to explain that?
- This one seems like either awesome Fridge Brilliance or simply a missed opportunity. Remember the ice trainig scene with Ra's in Batman Begins? Bruce has finally learned to mind his surroundings. Beyond that, I would assume he simply is close enough to the shore for it not to be that fragile yet.
- Plus that suit was designed to be a lot lighter than the previous one, and it was at night so the ice would be at it's hardest.
- I can't buy Batman making a giant Bat symbol out of petrol on the bridge. How does he find the time to do that, with the city in a really bad state? Doesn't he have more important things to worry about?
- He's Batman. He sure as hell can do exactly that, and it wouldn't take too long. Not to mention that the burning bat symbol is pretty important. He's a Hope Bringer, returning after five months to a city that needs him. He needs to make a symbolic statement that with bring that hope back, and a big, burning Bat Signal is just that. Theatricality.
- That bridge is where the special-forces soldiers were hanged. Of course he's going to announce his return by taking it back as a symbol of Gotham's liberation.
- If the OP doesn't mind, I'd like to emphasise that "really bad state" of the city refers not to Bane and his goons, and the general disarray, but to the frigging nuclear bomb about to go off in it. And all his hope-bringing-back would've done jack squat if because of his little decorating touch he would fail to disarm it in time (which is what almost happened).
- For the people of Gotham, it's a sign of hope. For Bane and his thugs, it's a sign that Batman is loose in the city and they'd better devote most of their effort to finding him ... and less to guarding the imprisoned police, watching over the trucks, etc. Theatricality and deception are tactics to Batman, remember? The more he can distract and demoralize the League rank-and-file, the better.
- Alternatively, Batman, being the schemer he is, had planned to fake his own death the entire time. To do that, he had to ensure that his leaving with the bomb was relatively last-minute. He knew when the bomb would go off, and knew the police's best chances of defeating Bane's forces would be during the day. Having a good idea of the amount of time he had, using the extra time he had to paint a bat on a bridge was one of the most effective things he could do to inspire fear in criminals and hope in Gotham.
Bane, Football Fan
- So, Bane's master stroke just happened to coincide with his plan for the football stadium? Or did the football game just happen to coincide with a major police operation?
- My guess is Bane timed his plan in accordance with the game, so he would have a huge audience for his big speech, and therefore more people within the city than on another day. He seems very skilled at manipulating people, and probably would have leaked something to the police so they would come down to investigate.
- And knowing this, I'm sure Bane and his men did go on the Internet to figure out which weeks the Rogues were going to be playing a home game and not a road game, and planned their attack around one of those Sundays.
- It is possible that Bane is playing some Xanatos Speed Chess, and that he blew up the stadium simply because there was an audience there when the police assaulted the tunnels. If they went in at a different time, he could have found a different public venue to attack and make his speech, like a different stadium or a museum. Worst comes to worst, he could just storm a TV station and make a public broadcast. Theatricality and deception are great tools against the uninitiated, but aren't the only tools in his arsenal.
- Possibly the football game provided a handy window of opportunity for the police to launch their sewer-manhunt, because a large fraction of the city's media would be paying attention to the game rather than the crowds of police gathering at the tunnel entrances. They wouldn't want news crews getting in the way or blabbing about how they were searching down there; Bane might be watching the news on them, after all.
- My biggest problem is the scene where Dr. Pavel, who just wrote a paper on how the fusion reactor could be turned into a bomb, can just roll up his sleeves and turn the reactor into a bomb in just one setting. Is he also an engineer or mechanic? He had no time to study it or look at blueprints, and he did so quickly, and without any tools.
- Presumably, Pavel's research included something similar enough to the reactor's design hat he could easily adjust it. Also, we can safely assume that Bane was able to get Pavel's blueprints, considering that Talia was directly connected to the reactor's development and also part of the Wayne Enterprises board - remember that Bane was also able to make calculations predicting precisely when the bomb would go off regardless. Any tools would be provided by Bane's people, based on the aforementioned blueprints he would have access to.
Who ya talkin' to, Lucius?
- When Lucius discusses the update to Bat's systems at the end, who is he talking to? Because he's basically admitted to whoever it is both who Batman was (or at least that it was someone with access to wayne technology) and what his own involvement was. He directly asks them if there's any way he could have prevented the crash, and is not bothering to hide the fact that he designed the ship that carried the bomb.
- Considering that everyone believes Batman to be dead, his involvement with Batman would be irrelevant at that point.
- At this point, Batman is a hero with his own statue in City Hall and probably a "Batman Day" to go with it. I doubt anyone is going to hassle Fox about his relationship to the greatest man in Gotham.
- Admitting things to a Wayne Enterprises tech, who'll be under several different layers of NDA and probably military oversight, is hardly the same thing as calling a press conference.
- The Bat was a distinctive aircraft. Those techs would have known exactly where it came from the moment it appeared on camera. Fox isn't admitting anything those techs couldn't have found out themselves.
- Is Wayne Enterprises still in business at the end of DKR? Many fans have discussed if the fake trade could be undone, maybe the money would go into Wayne Enterprises. Wayne Enterprises going strong is good for Gotham City, presumably.
- Considering there were still techs working on the Bat, those defense contracts weren't canceled, Fox specifically says that they'll be able to prove fraud, and the damage was to Bruce's personal accounts and not the whole of the company, it is safe to assume that yes, Wayne Enterprises is still in the green.
- Unless Gordon sits on the truth again, Wayne Enterprises built the nuke that was used to terrorize the city (and kept it in a populated area without telling anyone), and their interim Chairman turned out to be the terrorists' ringleader. They are in for one hell of an audit.
- Wouldn'd it make more scence to have Batman say "You have my permission to surrender". It just seems out of character for him to say "you have my permission to die".
- Bats was going for the Ironic Echo, nothing more or less. Since Talia interrupted (via backstab) we don't know if he actually would have been able to go through with killing Bane or not.
- Batman's already broken his rule once, admittedly by accident while trying to save a child's life. Bruce Wayne/Batman tries to avoid killing, but he's still human.
- Batman also tries to scare people. "You have my permission to surrender" isn't a scary threat, no matter how much Bruce distorts his voice. He wants criminals to think he either doesn't have the one rule, or he'll break it if pushed to far, and he wants Bane to think he's been pushed too far. Hell, he very well have been pushed too far by that point. Alternatively, you could look at it as Bats offering a Mercy Kill(bluffing); Bane's in excruciating pain at this point, to the point he can't even move. Batman isn't threatening to kill him, he's threatening to keep him alive and in that much pain until he talks.
- Batman doesn't kill but he isn't above death threats. In the comics he once threatened to destroy an entire planet to save Supergirl from Darkseid. He was probably bluffing but Darkseid believed him and let her go.
- How do the prisoners get TV reception from Gotham City, on the other side of the world? I didn't see any satellite hookup in there or anything.
- We don't see the entire prison complex or what their electrical setup is. There could have been a honking huge satellite farm a few feet away from the rim of the pit that was off-camera. Bane wanted Bruce to suffer, so he'd drop some money to get at least a basic satellite setup to make sure he suffered.
- Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think it was specified that the channel that was being shown was an English language one. What was going on in Gotham was probably being broadcast on channels around the world, just like if, in real life, New York City was in a similar situation. So unless it was very obviously an English language channel it could have just been a channel local to wherever the pit was located.
- I could swear it had Arabic script on-screen at one point, so considering the prisoners speak Moroccan Arabic, it was likely a local station.
- This parody video explains it nicely.
- You really would think that, having decided not to reveal the entire web of lies that the city has been living under for the previous years and how much both his moral authority and the morale of the citizenry of Gotham depend on said web of lies being maintained, Commissioner Gordon would take the incendiary speech that could if used right blow the whole thing wide open out of his jacket pocket and put it somewhere safer — like, say, a safe, or even a drawer in his private desk — before engaging in potentially dangerous operations against armed criminals who could conceivably overcome him and take the speech off him. Particularly given how potentially dangerous it is as a tool of blackmail even if there aren't devious criminal masterminds plotting to destroy the city running around. And, considering he had two whole days to do so, it's not like the opportunity didn't present itself. As potentially disastrous slips of the mind go, that's kind of a biggie.
- He was in the middle of a massive manhunt for a missing US Congressman. That kind of took priority. People have made comparably huge mental slips before and were carrying dangerous or sensitive materials on their person that they should have reasonably secured.
- But assuming the Congressman's disappearance isn't reported for, say, a couple of hours or so after the party, which is probably the shortest possible amount of time his disappearance is going to be noticed in, he could do it immediately when he gets back to the office or home, when it's still fresh in his mind and there's nothing to distract him. It's still a pretty big thing to let slip your mind. It takes, like, thirty seconds to transfer something from a pocket to a drawer. At minimum.
- Could be that Gordon felt like a bit of a coward for not having gone through with giving the speech, and so shied away from thinking about it at all. He's been weighed down by the burden of Batman's innocence for eight years, so must've had a lot of practice avoiding the entire subject by now.
- Maybe, but that would give him more incentive to put the speech somewhere else, surely; it's much easier not to think about something if it's buried in a desk drawer somewhere than if it's in your jacket pocket right next to your chest.
- Upon rewatching the movie, I think the problem is that continuity was altered in editing. Going by the day/night cycles and the way Gordon and Blake are dressed, I think the sewer chase sequence where Gordon is captured was supposed to happen to same night as Gordon's planned speech at Selina's theft of Bruce's necklace. Blake's discovery the orphan's body in the sewer and his subsequent visit to the orphanage seemed to happen a few days earlier.
Hit His Weak Point
- Why didn't Batman go for Bane's mask during their first fight? You'd think a mask that had a bunch of tubes running through it and affected the wearer's speech in a way that implies an aid in breathing might look a little important to his opponent.
- He didn't really know it was important, and he was preoccupied by the fact that he was betrayed, alone, and getting the crap kicked out of him after spending eight years not playing Batman. There's a reason why Bane notes that peace has defeated Batman.
- And technically he does go for the mask first. It's the first thing he starts punching when he initiates the fight, only problem is his punches do nothing to it.
- But then why don't his punches have any effect? In their second fight, the thing might as well be made of glass.
- Bruce used the spikey bits on the gauntlets to slice them open.
- I doubt he would have been successful. Considering that Bane is skilled enough at hand-to-hand combat that he actually beat Batman in a fight, he probably would have blocked any attempts to get at his mask with ease.
- Okay, this is probably a stupid question, but why didn't Fox activate the flood system when Bane brought him down to the reactor room and gave him access to the controls?
- There's these things called "bullets." They're very fast. Bane's man have lots of them, and would have shot Fox before he could flood the chamber. They already apparently possess intimate knowledge of the facility, so they would also undoubtedly know about the flooding mechanism and how to stop Fox from activating it.
- That theory doesn't work - Talia was able to set off the flooding mechanism remotely while only giving Fox, who was in the reactor room, a few moment's notice and no ability to stop it. Fox clearly seemed willing to sacrifice the life of the Wayne board member, so it stands to reason he would have been willing to die by bullets or flooding himself. It may be that he was rather trying to protect Miranda's life out of a sense of chivalry.
- It's possible that while he could flood the chamber, he didn't have the mechanism to instantly/remotely flood the chamber on his person at that particular moment. Alternatively, it could be that while he is willing to let himself get shot, to stand by and let another man get shot, he isn't willing to make the conscious decision to kill the other board member, Miranda, and commit suicide himself. He could rationalize that what Bane does is ultimately Bane's responsibility, but Fox flooding the chamber would be him willfully choosing to murder them.
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if Fox had the ability (access codes, biometrics, whatever) to flood the chamber. Bruce Wayne did, and upon losing control of the company he gave them to Miranda Tate.
- In her death scene Miranda/Talia states that Lucius showed her how to activate the flooding mechanism.
Bruce Declared Dead
- In the end, how did they manage to get Bruce Wayne declared dead without revealing he was Batman? Okay, Commisioner Gordon may have helped them, but I don't think even he could get a legal confirmation for Bruce's death if there was no identifiable body. And since there was no body, wouldn't Bruce have been considered a missing person, after which it would take a long time for him to be declared legally dead? Even though Bane's attack would probably have been considered as a likely cause of his death, it might still take years before he was determined to be dead in absentia (especially considering that he had a history of disappearing for long stretches of time); see the case of the supposed 9/11 victim Sneha Anne Philip for comparison.
- Precisely when the ending is shown in relation to the rest of the story isn't clear, so it could have been months down the line and he would have been declared dead in absentia with Gordon's and Fox's help.
- There were probably hundreds of unidentified millionaires' corpses floating out to sea in the aftermath of the Scarecrow's Kangaroo Court sessions. Under the circumstances, a coroner's ID is probably not going to be necessary to submit a judgement of "dead in absentia".
Leap of Faith
- How did a little child make that leap? Bruce was a full grown man with strength well past a kid's and even he looked like he barely made it.
- The child was also considerably LIGHTER than Bruce, and couldn't have been more than 12 or so. At that age, bones and muscles would be far more elastic due to them not being set in their adult configuration. Couple this with that the fact that the child just watched both mother and guardian both get brutalized by dozens of angry inmates AND knowing that the same fate (or worse) would await in the case of failure, adrenaline levels would probably be high enough to carry that far.
- Check out the Square Cube Law. A small child can potentially be stronger, pound for pound, than a large man.
- Blake figures out "Batman = Bruce Wayne" connection pretty early in the movie. However, he is unaware that Batman did not actually kill Harvey Dent until he watches Bane read Gordon's letter and is disgusted by the whole cover-up. This means that for a while Blake thought that Bruce Wayne was the guy who killed the heroic Harvey Dent for seemingly no reason and didn't bother to do anything about it.
- Blake probably figured that Batman hadn't really killed Dent, even if he didn't know the details.
- He does tell him after revealing he knows Bat's identity "I don't know why you've taken the fall for Dent's death." So he's deduced that Batman wouldn't have killed Harvey, he just didn't know that it was Gordon who framed him.
- Thing is, Bruce did kill Harvey, albiet unintentionally, when he pushed him off the ledge to stop him from killing James Jr. That wasn't the murder Bruce was taking the fall for, it was the people that Harvey killed.
- No, Batman IS taking the fall for Harvey's death AND the people Harvey killed. If Batman killed a handful of random people, it's horrible but could potentially be explained away. The whole point of vilifying Batman was to explain the deaths of Two-Face's victims and Harvey Dent's death, while painting the latter as a martyr.
- After Blake rescues Gordon from the sewers, he says: "Gordon is speaking of a masked man named Bane". But nobody called Bane by his name in Gordon's presence, so how can he know it?
- He may have heard the name off-screen when Bane's men were dragging him there.
- I seem to recall hearing that the novelization or a deleted scene from the script had them say "Should we bring him to Bane?" or something. Besides, Bane IS a known terrorist, and if you've seen his picture once, you'll recognize him instantly.
Blowing the Barricade
- What was the point for Selina to blow up that barricade, if the military was monitoring the exits from outside and was prepared to shoot tresspassers or blow up the bridges? Didn't Batman know that?
- The military was monitoring the bridge, not the tunnels.
- 1) Why not? Barricade is nice and all, but I wouldn't say it's impossible for a single person to get through. 2) In that case why didn't Blake bring the bus with children there?
- 1) I imagine Bane would have his men monitoring the barricade every now and then.
- 2) Because the tunnel would already be jam-packed with people trying to get out, so they needed every available means to escape.
- So does Batman break his no killing rule in this movie? It sure seems like he kills Talia/Miranda Tate after he forces her to crash while shooting her. And if you think that she crashed herself or that she isn't really dead, what about when Batman blew up one of Bane's Tumbler with the Bat? I'm pretty sure that guy inside died. And for Pete's sake, Batman knocked off Bane's mask! You know the thing that is keeping him alive and unburdened with pain.
- That Tumbler was killed by its own missile. He never actually fired at it, so it could count as a loophole.
- Upon rewatch, the guys in that tumbler don't die. They just get a hell of a jolt. They're still alive as the Tumbler crashes into a storefront or whatever it careens into.
- The other gripes are legitimate, but I don't think Bane actually needs his mask to live. Just to keep him from being crippled by pain.
- Has it ever been stated that the movie Batman even has a no killing rule? Sure, he saved Joker from death in the previous movie, but that was mostly because Joker's threat was over and his death wouldn't have helped anyone (unlike with Talia, whom Batman was forced to kill so he could get the bomb), and because Batman wanted to show Joker his moral view was wrong.
- Joker's death wouldn't have helped anyone? Joker has been shown to repeatedly escape prison to cause havoc and murders in Gotham so I think his death would've helped the whole city. Just a minor nitpick.
- Not in the Dark Knight Trilogy, he hasn't. Joker has escaped from prison one time, and then it seems he never escaped again.
- Yes, in Batman Begins. He even tells the Joker he has one rule, and Maroni remarks on how the mob has learned he won't kill.
- He was in a crisis situation. That bomb would kill around 12 million souls. He needed to stop that truck at any cost. And since this is a more or less realistic comic book movie there is no way to due that without somehow injuring the driver. Talia's life at this point is the least of his worries.
- Batman's "no killing" rule is an ideal, and the Nolan films make it clear how Batman has to compromise those ideals when they run into reality. And the reality of the situation is, if he has to choose between killing a couple of lunatics who are supporting a plan to detonate a nuclear bomb and kill twelve million people, or letting twelve million people die to uphold his own personal ideals, he'll throw out those ideals to save those people.
- One has to also remember that Batman's "No Killing" Rule applies more to direct killing, not indirect. So Batman will never actively stab or shoot someone, but if he causes a truck to tip over and the driver just happens to die from injuries, so be it. It was the truck tipping over and the resulting injuries that killed the driver, not directly Batman himself. Also, it's clearly stated in multiple movies (at least TDK and TDKR) that Batman doesn't kill. When Batman and Selina are fighting Bane's goons together on the rooftop, Batman knocks a gun out of Selina's hands and specifically says, "No killing."
- Plus, if she'd been wearing her seatbelt, she would have lived.
- So it's okay for him to indirectly kill people just because he's not doing it with his own hands? That honestly sounds like a cop-out to me. If I deliberately start a fire that leads to people dying (which BTW, is something Bruce himself did in Batman Beings), I'm not absolved of any responsibility for those deaths just because I didn't directly kill those people with my own hands.
- That would greatly depend on why you started the fire and where. If you lit an orphanage on fire to kill a lizard, the deaths of all the children are completely on you because you had a stupid reason to endanger people who are probably not capable of protecting themselves. The house Bruce set on fire was full of trained ninjas who were farther from the center of the blaze than him; if they died, it would have been their own incompetence that did them in. He's not indirectly killing people in the sense that he's pushing them off cliffs - people are dying as an unfortunate consequence of his desperate actions.
- The Editing Room put several lampshades on this.
How Many Tumblers?
- How many tumblers did bane steal from wayne enterprises? Promotional materials say three, but in the final battle there are three tumblers with the league of shadows and somehow 2 extra tumblers guarding 2 of the trucks while battle is taking place so how many are there?
- Five, obviously.
- At least one of the other trucks had a Tumbler in front of it too. Then again you can see a lot of them in the background when Bruce and Lucius go to the armory.
- ...So... Bane acts surprised when he sees the giant flaming bat symbol. Does't he have a very trustworthy source of information, one that had been, just a couple scenes earlier, in the same vicinity as one Bruce Wayne?
- You mean the "trustworthy source of information" that healed Wayne's back and helped him escape the Pit? Why do you expect him to warn Bane about the guy he helped?
- He/she is talking about Miranda Tate/Talia and I assume she didn't want bane to worry.
- Did she even know he was back yet? I can't quite remember the sequence of events after he got back, but even if she did, it's possible that she hadn't been able to get word to him yet.
- Or Talia didn't tell Bane because she wanted to wait for the right opportunity to strike - when Bruce thought he was on the verge of defeating Bane and finding the bomb trigger.
- Is anyone else extremely skeptical that John Blake would have what it takes be the next Batman (or Nightwing)? He's just a cop. A good cop, yes, with decent detective talent and trained to use firearms and he does have some basic hand to hand combat skills, however those are not enough to make him fit to be Batman. Blake would get killed even by the Joker in a hand to hand fight. Bruce spent several years getting inside the criminal mind and learning to fight to the point where he could take on six men simultaneously. This was even before he had his ninja training. Also Bruce's fitness regimen went far beyond what a normal cop would engage in. Just for starters, Blake would have to pump some serious iron to build enough muscle strength to be on par with Bruce. And taking martial arts classes for a few years might get Blake to the point where Bruce started when he met Ras in Batman Begins, but even all those things together do not a Batman make. Blake looks to be in his mid twenties, like Bruce was in the previous two films. He doesn't have many years to spend on training himself up before age starts to work against him.
- He is nowhere near as skilled at martial arts as Bruce was, but he personally may not have worried about that and decided to go into crime-fighting anyway, with or without Batman's blessing. Bruce probably knew that and just wanted to give him every advantage possible so he would be less likely to be killed immediately. That is, after all, why he let Dick Grayson be Robin in the comics: he knew that he'd be trying to fight crime no matter what and wanted to give him a chance to survive that.
- Training a sidekick who isn't as skilled as you is not even close to trusting your legacy to a man who simply doesn't have the strength and skills to adopt the role you played. Sure, Bruce left the cave to John with all its technology, but there is no more hardware to replace or add to any of it, unless Lucius Fox gets a job running a company that makes military hardware and starts "misplacing" company products into John's hands. Also, the problem of John's competency in physically fighting is never addressed. John doesn't know how to be Batman and there aren't really any resources he could draw upon to learn to fight as effectively as Bruce could. Getting a black belt in half a dozen different martial arts still wouldn't make John up to the challenge. I suppose if he learned Muay Thai, MCMAP and Krav Maga, he might be on Bruce's level of fighting skill but he still wouldn't know how to use theatricality, deception and all the other psychological weapons that Batman needs to be Batman.
- All of this is true, however the question remains: would Blake care about any of that? If so, the guy's not an idiot, he'd find a way to build up his skills. If not, well, Bruce tried to equip him as well as he could. It's also a possibility that Blake won't rely on hand-to-hand the way Bruce did; he may simply drive around in the tumbler every once in a while so people think Batman's still out there, meanwhile using his detective skills and legal knowledge as opposed to brawling the way Wayne did. Bane, Ra's, the Joker, and the mob are gone; he doesn't need to worry about them either. He's probably inheriting a pretty peaceful city and can more than handle what violence is left.
- Blake has one advantage that Bruce didn't—he doesn't have the hangups on using guns or killing. He's a cop, we see him shoot guns and kill in self defense.
- But he did dislike using them, as we see him throw his gun away in disgust after shooting two guys. Plus, killing had A LOT of repercussions for Batman as this film showed.
- A Batman who uses guns and kills is not Batman. He's just a guy in a costume, fighting crime in a crude and stupid way. That's why Batman stopped the vigilantes with guns in The Dark Knight: because they were trying to kill in his name and that is no better than criminal behaviour. Batman is above and beyond killing. That's what makes him a symbol of justice, and what gives him the moral authority to go out and make a difference.
- Never killing is a symbol of pacifism, not justice. Ra's al Ghul's plan was stopped when Jim Gordon blew out the tracks from beneath the monorail, destroying the car and everyone within it (Ra's himself, specifically). If Batman hadn't tackled Harvey Dent off a ledge into a lethal drop, Jim Gordon's son may not be alive. Catwoman openly tells Batman that his no guns thing is bullshit after killing Bane in one shot from the guns mounted on the batpod, after Bruce has been struggling with him the entire film, and Bruce himself shot down the truck carrying the bomb from The Bat, killing Talia in the process. Death is a side effect of using violence to stop criminals, and if none of the protagonists had ever been willing to commit a form of violence that may result in the death of their adversary, nothing would ever have been accomplished.
- It's true that in a more grounded, realistic take on a superhero, the idealistic concept of never using lethal force is implausible. However, Blake still can't be running around with guns either since a big part of the reason the good cops of Gotham tolerated and cooperated with Batman in the first place was because he didn't murder anyone. When the situation became very desperate, he did what he needed to do. But as soon as Batman was thought to be a killer, the police force was against him. So despite Blake not having the same psychological 'hangups' about guns that Bruce does, he would still be wise to avoid them (unless another full on WAR like the one in this film occurs).
- I think I missed something. After Selina betrays Bats, the next day Blake is out looking for him. While there, Blake just happens to see and recognize Selina and arrest her as she tries to leave the city. From what I could tell, he wasn't even looking for her, he was looking for Bruce. So where was it that Blake tripped over her and why was she there?
- My memory of the movie is fuzzy but I do recall that Selina is wanted by the police. Blake may have recognized due to her mugshot that he saw. Actually, I think he was looking for Wayne but couldn't find him so he went after Selina instead. Again, it's been awhile but that's what I think happened.
- Recall that Blake saw her at the bar fight when they were trying to rescue the Congressman. The Congressman identified her from her picture, as Blake says during the interrogation. Blake sees her again while looking for Bruce and follows her. After all, he's not allowed to believe in coincidence anymore.
- Upon re-watch, the answer is easy to miss. After Dagget boots Wayne out of his own board meeting, Blake shows up in his cruiser to offer him a ride. Bruce asks to be dropped off in Old Town, at Selina's house. Later, Blake is looking for Bruce, so after checking his house he goes back to the last place he saw him: outside Selina's apartment.
- In the Plane Heist Scene, the Government Agent announces that their listed flight plan includes the agent, his men, Pavel and only one of Bane's men, because he was going to kill all but the first one to talk. Bane accounts for this by leaving a double for Pavel and having one of his men stay on board to make up the numbers. Except that doesn't work, because the Agent was lying about killing his hostages. Surely that means his real flight plan would've included all of them, and therefore Bane didn't leave enough corpses on the plane?
- He only had one listed because he was only expecting one, while the goons brought two extra.
- That's... That's not how flight plans work.
- And even if it was, the goons brought three extra; Bane and his two lackeys. The only one he was expecting was Pavel. As for the flight plan, he was registering that with the agency (the CIA). So when they examined the bodies they would have checked it with how many people were listed on the flight plan. So this would mean that Bane knew that CIA man was going to try something like this instead of just being truthful (although even then, Bane would just tell some of the guys from the other plane to sacrifice themselves).
- I always just assumed that Bane figured the number of bodies didn't need to be exact... the only person who needed to be confirmed dead for sure was Pavel and it would just have seemed very suspicious if there was no sign of the prisoners whatsoever in the wreckage. Bodies get lost in plane crashes all the time.
- It was supposed to be an interrogation method to intimidate the three prisoners (as the CIA agent believed them to be)- he is announcing that two of them are expendable, only one of them gets to stay aboard, and then bluffs throwing the first out the door. Sadly (for him), Bane calls him on the bluff instantly- also, the guy's really not very good at this sort of thing, and one wonders what he's doing in the field in the first place. It seems like he was sent out on what was meant to be a milk run (transporting Pavel), then found himself out of his depth and decided to try to sound tougher than he really was. Maybe he was set up to be in charge of the flight, just as Bane got himself set up to be put aboard?
Yet More Thin Ice Again Forever
- This is probably really stupid and besserwisser-y of me, but I can't help thinking about this: When exiled, why didn't anyone think to crawl on the ice? Then they would have survived. That's how you move on thin ice; you want to even out the pressure over a larger area instead of a smaller area like your feet. Just adding in some short scene where someone tries to crawl and gets shot would have helped a lot. Gotham is a city where it freezes in the winter, surely they teach people how to get across ice?
- I wondered about this too. You think at least the policemen would have known about this.
- I think adding in a scene where they shoot someone for trying to crawl would actually have hurt the scene more than it helped. The impression we're given is that if they can actually make it across the ice, they're free to go. This creates a thin layer of hope that the people sent out onto the ice might actually make it out alive. It's probably a false hope and we can invent all manner of scenarios for ways it could go badly even if they make it across, but as it stands, the scene presents itself with that silver lining that both the characters and audience can hope for. Actually showing them executing people for doing a good job of crossing the ice would subvert that. That plays into the very important distinction between "near-certain death" and "certain death"; in the event of the former, the possibility of survival, no matter how frail, can hold an audience at the edge of their seats where the latter just leaves them waiting for everyone to die and the scene to end.
- Gordon realizes who Bats is SECONDS after Bats says his thing about giving young boys coats. This was at least 31 years ago. ...How?! Are detectives just that good?
- He'd remember it if the kid was Bruce Wayne himself. I'm sure you've, say, held the door open for many people but you'd remember one specific instance if the person you held it open for was George Clooney.
- Could be seen as an Acceptable Break From Reality, too... would you rather have have five minutes where Gordon lists every boy he's ever comforted in his forty years as the only good cop in the most violent city on the planet? "Steve Jones, no, he doesn't have the money for Tumblers... Bob Smith, no, he was kind of out of shape... Ed Connors, no, he was a black guy... Bill Johnson, no, I just comforted him because he dropped his ice cream, not really enough motive..." Then had a scene two weeks later where he wakes up at 2am, all sweaty... "Bruce Wayne?"
- It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes type of genius to make that deduction. First of all, Gordon already knows Batman must be someone with a lot of money, because of all the high-tech stuff he as. Now, he may not know what every young boy he's ever saved grew up to be, but he certainly knows Bruce Wayne is rich. And once he figures Bruce could be the one, all he has to do is think about the appearances and disappearances of Bruce and Batman: in Batman Begins Bruce returns to Gotham after being away for years, and not long after that Batman appears for the first time too. After the events of The Dark Knight Batman disappears for 8 years, and Bruce Wayne becomes a recluse, only for both of the to return to the public eye around the same time.
- More specifically, Gordon knows that a Wayne Enterprises employee threatened to reveal Batman's identity in the previous movie and then Bruce Wayne did something recklessly stupid to save him. He also knows that Bats specifically mentioned Rachel Dawes to him in Begins and then went to save her when the Joker gave the Sadistic Choice in TDK. It was well-known that she was Bruce's childhood friend. And Gordon was the head of the Batman task force at one point, even if he wasn't taking it too seriously. There's a lot of evidence if Gordon really wanted to pursue it, but he didn't, and once Batman gave him the explicit link he finally just connected the dots.
- Or, according to this Cracked video, where Gordon claims he and other GCPD people put two-and-two together in ten minutes. They just don't disclose the fact that Bruce Wayne is Batman because Wayne Enterprises employs half the city and the police force is cash-strapped, plus they took pity on him for the circumstances of his parents' deaths. (The video also implies that everyone knows Bruce Wayne is Batman, but they have been shushed by a system of elaborate non-disclosure agreements)
- What happened to the Wayne Enterprise worker from the previous movie, that said in a public TV that he had discovered Batman's identity? After Batman becomes the most wanted man in Gotham, I think that both police and remaining criminals would want to have a chat with him. He doesn't seem to be a type that can resist interrogation.
- Batman a) is now a wanted murderer; b) saved Reese's life and c) is still friends with the #1 cop in Gotham, who probably told the other cops that Reese was full of shit. Everyone in Gotham considered to be more dangerous than Batman (Like the Joker, or Maroni) is either dead or in jail. Would you betray a rich, highly trained psycho killer who previously risked his life to save yours? Or would you count your blessings and keep your mouth shut, no matter who was asking you about him?
- Why didn't Bane reveal Batman's identity in one of his public speeches, like when he's revealing the truth about Harvey Dent at the prison? He even had evidence to back it up this time (unlike with Harvey) in the form of stealing Tumblers and Batman's shattered mask, etc... Since Bane's attack on Gotham was largely aimed at completely shattering Bruce's spirit, you'd think he would have loved the idea of some of the criminals he freed (Scarecrow, for example) going out there and shooting Alfred, and Lucius, and anyone else with even a tenuous connection to Bruce Wayne. It seems odd that he would keep that to himself, knowing the terrible damage revealing it could do to Bruce. Yet by the end of the movie, Batman's identity is still a secret to most people.
- Same reason Ra's al Ghul didn't — It's Personal.
- That doesn't make any sense. Ra's al Ghul had no reason to reveal Batman's identity because he had no time; Gotham was about to be "destroyed" in minutes. Bane had months and months to enact his plan. How does It's Personal relate to either of them?
- I'm not seeing It's Personal for either of them either. Ra's al Ghul didn't reveal Batman's identity because he killed Batman. There was no reason to. It was pointless. As far as he knew, Bruce Wayne died in the collapse of the manor, and he never learned of his mistake until he was already putting his final stage into motion, at which point it's far too late. As for Bane, he never revealed Batman's identity because, much like with Ra's, there was no reason to. The whole city was killing itself and everyone was going to die anyway. Even if Bane did send either released criminals or his original henchmen out to shoot Bruce's loved ones, he'd still need to convince a camera crew that their live execution is important enough to film, which would raise unsettling questions about what he's actually trying to accomplish to too many people (putting his fake revolution in jeopardy). Ultimately, Batman's identity doesn't mean anything at this point, because Batman himself is broken in a jail cell where he's going to die alone and never come back, and his intended purpose of "Watch your city burn" is already happening, so there's no gain in it. I doubt if anyone asked him, Bane would bother to lie, but there's also not really any good reason to make a spectacle of it either.
- But consider that Bane may have actually had a reason on his and his followers' side to deliberately keep Batman's identity hidden: He is aware that if criminals start shooting those close to Bruce Wayne, there's a chance that Talia might be very near the top of that list (given the close relationship she forges with Bruce in her Miranda Tate persona), and it's unlikely Bane and his men can protect her from everyone.
- It's shown that some people still believe in Batman and hold him up as a hero. The reason Bane doesn't tell them Bruce is Batman or tell them he beat Batman to a pulp without revealing Bruce's identity is because he wants them to think Batman abandoned them. If he shows them that he took Batman out of the picture himself by tossing the man down the Pit, then he turns Bruce/Bats into a martyr, which is exactly what he doesn't want to do.
- Also consider Selina's What Have I Done moment when she discovers Batman's identity. Since the quasi-Occupy/class warfare rhetoric was so central to Bane's plan to stir up chaos, he must have known that revealing that the man who saved the city from The Joker was actually one of the "elites" they were uniting against would have dampened the revolutionary spirit.
Fight Scene Failures
- In the scene depicted in this GIF, why does the near left guy fly back? Did one of the mercs accidentally shoot him?
- Looks like Fight Scene Failure to me. In-Universe, maybe Batman kicked the guy next to him so hard, the shockwave took him down.
- In-Universe, I'd say the goof just slipped on the ice. That scene takes place at night in the dead of winter.
- So Bruce kills off Batman, but simultaneously creates a new Batman to succeed him? What's the point in that? He's not The Phantom.
- He didn't want to be Batman any more, but he recognized the need for 'a' Batman, if more as a symbol than a person. This way, people come to the same realization: the man isn't important, so long as the symbol is still there.
- Is Batman immortal? Are his methods supernatural?
- Batman is an idea, a symbol, and such things are inherently immortal and have supernatural-like characteristics. After all, criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot.
- ^ I can't tell if you missed the reference or tried to explain it for those who might not get it. Batman is a symbol, but he requires a physical person to don the Cowl even if it isn't the same man as before.
- So, Batman is supposed to be this expertly trained combatant. So why, when he first sees Bane on that bridge in the sewer does Batman not take Bane out simply with a gadget instead of just brawling his way through? A simple bomb or Batarang would have defeated Bane.
- As Bane says, "Victory has defeated you." The point being, Batman always wins fist fights... why would his fight with Bane be any different? Even though Alfred has warned him otherwise, he expects to handily kick Bane's ass. He may also be trying to prove to himself that he's still got it. This turns out to be a tragic mistake, but Batman had no reason (in his mind) to expect to lose. And so, once you are (or think you are) unbeatable in hand-to-hand combat, it's just a question of practicality. Batman has a limited supply of Batarangs and bombs, which he may need for a situation where a fist fight won't work; his supply of PUNCHING-YOUR-FACE is for all intents and purposes inexhaustible, so it makes sense he'd use that first whenever possible.
- Technically that line referred to Bats being out of shape after an eight year retirement, but for the most part this is right. Batman is an expertly trained combatant and, as far as any of us know, has never been on the losing side of a physical confrontation. Not to mention, he wasn't just dealing with bane at that point; Bane's men were surrounding him and armed with automatic weapons. All "Batman is an invincible memetic badass who never looses" bullshit aside, this is one of those situations where he tries his damnedest to stay out of because if he had taken out Bane with a batarang or bomb, then Bane's men would have rained automatic fire down on him and he'd be full of holes. Bane's standing there challenging him to singles combat, and as far as Bruce believes he's got nothing to lose by accepting, but he will die if he refuses.
- So, why do people just roll over and follow Bane's orders? The criminals I can understand, they're just happy to be free. But what about everybody else? Cuz here's Bane's speech at the football stadium in Layman's terms. "People of Gotham" (you know your reading this in Bane's voice) "I am here to free you from opression and corruption. However, you do not have the freedom to leave the city if you choose. You also now live in a police state and will be subjected to Kangaroo Courts. And if you do try to leave, we will kill you and everyone you know with a five-megaton nuclear bomb. Have a nice day!"
- That answers your own question. If they try to resist and are caught, they risk the entire city being nuked as punishment. That's too big a price to pay.
- That's not really the basic issue. Why do people decide to follow Bane when he is holding them hostage? I can understand some people are feeling extremely sore about being poor when there are super rich people like Bruce Wayne. I can also understand them doing it because there is no one else to stop them, but wouldn't they kind of disagree with being held hostage by a nuclear bomb?
- And if they voice that disagreement in a tangible way, they explode. "I have a nuclear bomb" trumps pretty much everything. How is that not clear? There is no arguing with a nuclear explosion. You ask why the people are acting like that? Because if they go against Bane they explode. "Do this or you explode" is a fairly effective way of getting people to do something. Because people don't want to explode.
- It's not just them that will explode, either... it's all their friends, families, co-workers, pets, beloved sports personalities; everyone. Bane's hold over the city is a rule of fear; he's like Stalin, if Stalin had to wear an anasthetic gas mask. Most people will at least pretend to like him if that's what he wants; even if they don't care about getting killed themselves, they're not going to be responsible for their loved ones being killed. Bane removed the police and the Batman and replaced them with a bunch of ninja extremists and freed mobsters. He kept higher authorities out with the bomb threat. Law and order in the city is now whatever he says it is. Most likely the majority of people don't like this, but what do they do? If I was in that situation, I'd probably hole myself up in my apartment with a shotgun as much as I possibly could (maybe venturing out to try and find food now and then) but I certainly wouldn't try to stand against Bane or his friends; if any League of Shadows folks came a knockin' and asked how I liked Bane I'd say, "Bane? He's a super-duper great guy! I love his mask and his coat and especially his love of not detonating my loved ones. Seriously, please don't kill everyone I know."
- Who says they have to voice their disagreement? They could just do what Foley does and lay low. And the problem is still why do they go along with him so willingly when they could just do nothing. And also, why do they go about it so gleefully, knowing that their "emancipator" is pointing a gun to their head? They can't all be that good actors.
- They figure it's making the best of a bad situation. They're all being held hostage, they might as well use the limited freedoms to revel that Bane has given them. It's the reason why they're listed as an example in Apocalypse Anarchy. Also, it's likely not all of Gotham that went along with it and became openly depraved. Just the most vocal. A large part of the population probably went into hiding and tried to just keep themselves and their family safe.
- Not everyone goes along with it willingly. Most of the citizens keep themselves indoors and keep their heads down. The ones who follow Bane do so because they WANT to, because he's given them an excuse to let out their inner psycho.
- Remember that Gotham in the past was the most messed up city in America. Even after nine years of improvement thanks to Batman, there's likely still bound to be some corrupt folks living there, maybe even plenty.
Bats' Stab Wound
- After Bane was killed, why didn't Batman's stab wound seem to slow him down at all? Yeah, I know, he's Batman, but the wound must have been pretty deep, since Talia stuck her knife in all the way to the hilt, twisted it around, and took the time to tell him her backstory before finally pulling it out.
- Adrenaline. After all, the real Baby Face Nelson was shot seventeen times by two FBI agents, and yet he lived for three hours before dying.
- But after Talia pulled her knife out, Batman was pretty much helpless until Catwoman saved him. Then for the next six minutes he was fine again, and in a wounded state somehow managed to escape from the Bat, fake his death, and go into hiding without anyone seeing him. Where did he go for medical attention if he didn't anyone to know he had lived?
- He was armored; the stab wound probably wasn't nearly as bad as it seemed, especially since it was deliberately meant to be nonfatal. Of course at first he was in a lot of pain and reeling from the betrayal. He pulls himself together in a couple minutes. Also after being stabbed, he doesn't really do too much more physical stuff; he just sits in a plane, and shuffles around a little, which he could easily have forced himself to do. And anyone with even a modicum of preparedness would have a first aid kit on their vehicle; Batman being who he is probably had the best medical kit available and took it with him when he ejected. That probably held him over till he found a doctor who didn't ask too many questions (Leslie Thompkins?).
- All right, I'll buy that.
- Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Blake throws away his pistol after shooting the truck driver with it (right before Bane blew the bridges in Gotham), thus foreshadowing his future, yet in the very next scene, Nolan and Goyer put him in a situation where he needs to grab a shotgun from his car. He probably needed it, since he was going up against armed mercenaries, but as a work of fiction, it's ultimately up to the writer and director what happens next, and it boggles me that they would put Blake in a situation where he needs a gun right after they showed him giving up guns.
- I saw it as Blake throwing his gun away in disgust at what he had done. He hates killing people, and thus, threw the gun away in horror. However, like many cops, he may not like killing people; but he's willing to do so if lives are in danger. Thus, his next scene shows him with a gun because he knew he would need it to save Gordon.
- Minor query, but why do you suppose Bane goes by the name "Bane" at all? Even if "Bane" is the name he grew up with note . As the new leader of the League of Shadows, Bane could easily declare himself the new "Ra's Al Ghul" instead and take advantage of all of the fear and awe attached to that title, especially after the attack on Gotham in Batman Begins. Why didn't he?
- Probably a combination of personal factors, including a). the fact in light of the climax's revelations Bane, while technically in charge of the League of Shadows, was himself still enacting the plan of someone else who he was deeply loyal to, namely Talia and b). Bane and Ra's seem to have had a rather rocky history, to put it mildly, and c). Bane seems like the kind of guy who'd rather be respected and feared for who he is, rather than coasting on a dead man's reputation. And all that is assuming that Ra's al Ghul is always the title of the leader of the Shadows, which so far as I'm aware is popular Fanon but never actually confirmed anywhere in the trilogy.
- Why didn't Selina own any cats? We get to see her place, and there is a distinct lack of felines around.
- She ate them... No, I'm kidding. They could have been offscreen, or maybe she lets them run around during the day. In my neighborhood, the cats are essentially free to roam during the whole day but come back every evening for food and sleep.
- Or she may simply not own any. And it's not like she has a fascination with cats or is possessed by the spirits of cats...This universe's Selina Kyle is simply a Classy Cat-Burglar.
Why Did Talia Sleep With Bruce Again?
- Why did Talia sleep with Bruce Wayne? It would make sense if they were going by her characterization in the comics, where she actually loves him, but she seems to absolutely loathe him in this version. It would also make sense if she wanted her eventual betrayal to hurt him as much as possible, but if things had gone according to her plan, Gotham would have blown up and taken her with it, leaving Bruce to die in the pit never knowing who Talia was or that she was involved at all. If her plan was for her treachery to wound him she should have been the one to explain what was happening when Bruce woke up in the pit, not Bane. She can't possibly have counted on him escaping and returning to Gotham to provide her with just the right opening in which to stab him and then reveal herself. So what was the point of romancing and banging the dude she hated and blamed for her father's death? What purpose was it supposed to serve?
- What worse for Bruce? Watching his city blow up, or watching his city blow up with someone he believed loved him in it? Basically, she wanted to twist the knife by playing the part of Rachel.
- I find that to be just a tiny bit of a stretch, since she just hooked up with him the one time; didn't date him or anything, despite having the time to do so. Hardly enough to be considered a 'loved one.'
- This is a pretty good Headscratcher and the only explanations I can think of are these: Talia was caught up in Christian Bale's sexiness and her sleeping with him was just an act of passion. Unlikely. Or...she wanted Bruce to experience one brief moment of happiness before he was dumped in the pit to make his absence in Gotham hurt that much more for him.
- Remember that after Talia sexes him, she asks him to run away with her. "We could go anywhere we wanted." I think Talia wanted to deliver Bruce to Bane and the pit personally, and the sex was meant to lower his guard and make her betrayal hurt worse. But then Bruce just up and leaves her while she's asleep to meet Catwoman and find Bane, so they go with Plan B.
- Talia slept with Bruce because that's what Miranda Tate would have. All of Ra's Al Ghul's followers were fanatical in their devotion to the cause and the plan, as was Ra's himself. Bane and Talia were said to be even more fanatical than Ra's was. So in order to immerse herself in her cover and gain Bruce's trust, she slept with him. This isn't that uncommon for covert operatives of both sexes in some real infiltration operations. A critical part of the training is to disconnect emotionally from the act of sex and use it as a tool.
- The above makes some sense, although I feel that more explanation is needed on the actual why it was necessary from a tactical point of view. Talia by that point did not really need to gain any further trust from Bruce as she already held a high position in his company and was suspected of nothing; Bruce was also hours away from his defeat by Bane, so theoretically Talia's work as an operative was more or less done as far as Bruce was concerned. Here is my theory on why it was tactically advantageous: many boxers and MMA fighters will abstain from sex before a fight, under the belief that it makes them passive and less aggressive. Whether this is true or not is debatable, but if Talia thought that it was, she could perhaps have been attempting to provide Bane with every advantage she could before the fight, and figured she may as well try to mentally soften Bruce a bit if she could. She probably also enjoyed the idea of getting that close to Bruce and having him suspect nothing; she may have taken some sadistic glee in playing him for a fool like she was.
- It gets him to let his guard down and deflects suspicion. It also gives Talia access to a different side of Bruce. Also, as stated, the joy of making a fool out of him.
- And hell, even psychopathic, city-destroying villainesses need to get laid once in a while.
Why shoot a man?
- Very minor, but still worth a question, I think: In what I believe is his first line in the film, Bane calls the CIA agent's bluff by saying "Perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man, before throwing him out of a plane." It's a badass establishing moment for Bane, but his attempt to poke holes in the agent's charade isn't very strong if you think about it because... WHY NOT shoot a man, before throwing him from a plane? You make sure he's dead, since people have survived falls like that before; though probably not with bullets in their heads; you also dispose of the corpse so you don't have it lying around on the plane. It actually seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do if you're going to execute someone up in the air (and bullets are NOT that expensive). Obviously, the CIA agent wasn't going to do this, but there was nothing in particular wrong with his bluff. Why didn't Bane call him on something else more reasonable?
- If the agent had provided a reasonable explanation, Bane would've moved on. He didn't. Bane was almost literally taking a shot in the dark.
- Context is important here. The agent opened up the plane door and threatened to toss them out to scare them into talking. Then he fires a round into open air to make them think he was making good on his threat to kill them. But as Bane points out, why would you shoot a man if you were going to toss him out of the plane? While it is possible to survive a fall alone and it gets rid of a dead body, why go through the theatrics first? Because you aren't really going to do it and you just want the others to think you will. Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated. But Bane was initiated.
- Bane is justifiably certain that the CIA guy wasn't about to start chucking potential intelligence sources out a plane, let alone with bullet holes in their heads. Bane isn't literally questioning the "shoot a man before throwing him out of a plane" logic, but rather the logic of accepting three prisoners on the assumption that they could provide intel on one of the most dangerous terrorists alive, only to kill one when he didn't talk right away.
- The thing is, some intelligence agencies have been known to play the 'if we have X prisoners with the info we need, that's X-1 people we can kill in the process of convincing tail-end Charlie over there that we really really mean it when we say we're gonna keep doing horrible things until somebody talks', so, Bane is taking a calculated risk here. Then again, Bane takes calculated risks like a hypochondriac takes vitamins anyway, so...
No Viewpoint Character
- Why is there no normal person viewpoint character? In The Dark Knight, we had Rachel Dawes, who more or less represented the normal good person of Gotham, but she was killed. Now, every single character in this film is either rich, a cop, or a criminal. So, in the end, while the film's makers say they aren't trying to make an Anti-Occupy film, they are by the fact that every person in the film who supposed to be considered good is rich, or helping the rich enforcing order as a cop, or is against them, and is therefore a criminal. Selina Kyle seems to be this character, but she's a thief and is always on the edge of evil. Alfred could have been this character, but he left in Act 1 and doesn't reappear until the coda. Blake is trying to be this character, but he's a cop, following orders and investigating what's going on, not showing us the common person's plight. Malcolm Fox is one of the rich, so he can't be this character. Miranda Tate seems to be this character, but she is rich and also Talia Al Ghul and a terrorist criminal out to destroy Gotham. So, it seems as if the common person's viewpoint is lost. The closest we seem to come is the Orphans and the priest watching out after them, but they're in the film for all of five minutes, so it's hard to see their point of view.
- Em, Rachel Dawes wasn't just a civilian. She had a job in law enforcement, being an assistant district attorney. The story about Batman in general has always been about a very rich man. That's kinda the premise. The Iron Man movies have no "ordinary person" viewpoint and they don't suffer from it.
- Not only that, but she appeared to be the DA's lead trial counsel. If anything, John Blake is much closer to an "ordinary person" than she was, even with his shield.
- It's also worth mentioning that Bruce Wayne is not rich for a good chunk of this film. He's Brought Down to Badass by Bane's stock exchange robbery fairly early on.
- There isn't really a major character representing the "ordinary man" because there is no need for a major character representing the "ordinary man". The film is about Batman, not Bobby Stevenson or what have you.
Selina's Job Prospects
- While I'm definitely not denying that people with records often have a hard time finding legitimate work, would it really be so impossible for Selina? There are organisations that specifically help ex-cons find work. There are businesses that seek out talented ex-criminals due to the fact that they can help catch/stop people who try to commit the crimes they once committed. Selina is very intelligent, tenacious, and physically capable. She also has the privileges inherent in being young, white, and pretty.
- She's not an ex-con who's served her sentence and is having trouble finding work from the stigma—she is a career criminal who has escaped from being held, and would be wanted for several recent crimes. Those programs are for people who've been arrested, convicted, and finished their jailtime—not for people who are still active criminals who have no intention of being caught and serving time.
- It's pretty much stated outright that she's either in debt to or being blackmailed by some bad people. Hard to go straight when you're forced to keep up what you're doing to pay people off.
- Assuming no one chose not to believe Bane when he revealed Harvey Dent to be a murderer, why would anyone care at that point? Harvey Dent being a bad person is pretty sad, but not as sad as being kicked out of your home by looters and having to stay up all night to guard the makeshift tent your sleeping family is cowered inside while you wait for a nuclear bomb to scorch the city you live in.
- If nothing else, it would completely shatter people's trust in any remaining authority figures. If you discovered that a beloved hero was actually a psychotic murderer and that the city's top cop had covered it up for years, would you see them as being on your side when anarchy descends on the city? Or would they become more enemies to protect your family against?
- How exactly did Bane's men pour explosive-laced concrete that allowed them to blow up Heinz Field's playing surface? It looks like there are columns for the foundation underneath, but I'm not certain.
- What happened to the cop's guns while they were in the sewers? Did they spend all their ammo hunting rats for food? Why do they have to Zerg Rush Bane's minions? And since Bane's minions do have guns, why do they forget to pull the trigger?
- Bane's men could've demanded the cops to surrender the weapons, or else they would refuse to feed them. Why didn't they starve the cops, by the way, is another question.
- I would definitely go on the idea that the cops had to barter their firearms away for food. Anyways, Bane only wanted to keep the cops trapped underground because they were important to keep out of the way but not so much that killing them was necessary.
- Several of the cops do visibly have guns, primarily the SWAT cops who have their submachine guns. Bane's troops are also seen firing at the cops when they rush forward and several are seen to get shot and die.
- Why does Batman light up the Bat-Signal, loudly announcing his return to the city? Is he not at all worried that Bane might take that as his cue to detonate the bomb early?
- Since the whole point of Bane's plan is not just to destroy Gotham, but to utterly break Batman before doing so, and since Batman knows this full well because Bane explained it to him, and since the bomb only has a few hours before it goes off anyway, Batman is taking the chance that Bane is not going to detonate the bomb out of panic without taking one last chance to break him. As for why he does it, it's to provide a morale boost to Batman's allies / Bane's enemies within the city.
- A better question is why Batman wasted what was likely several hours setting something like that up when he knew for a fact that a nuclear bomb was a day or less from going off. Skewed priorities. Even if he felt the need to let everyone know Batman was back, you'd think there were quicker and cheaper ways to do it.
- It's Batman. The flaming Bat-signal had probably been set up years earlier just in case he might need it one day. I'm only half-joking about that, since it's absolutely something comic book Bats would have done.
Fighting For Years
- When Bruce hallucinates Ra's al Ghul, he says that he (Bruce) fought crime in Gotham "for years." Um, no he didn't. Batman Begins takes place over (at most) a couple weeks and the Dark Knight (which takes place at the most a year later) takes place over a week or so. At the vveerrryyy most, Bruce's career as Batman was about 14 months.
- There is no way of knowing how long it took Bruce to stop being Batman nor any reliable way of knowing how much time passed between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. This fourteen months is based on the idea that Batman stopped being active immediately following the events of the Dark Knight instead of continuing right alone for some amount of time while avoiding the cops.
- Actually, in The Dark Knight, the Joker explicitly says that "a year ago these cops and lawyers wouldn't have dared crossed any of you." In The Dark Knight Rises, it's strongly implied he hung up the cape after Dent's death. Blake mentions that said death was the last confirmed sighting of the Batman and I swear at some point during the police chase someone said he's been out of commission for 8 years. It's possible, hell even likely, that he kept up some sort low level crime fighting (probably dealing with loose Mob ends) afterwards but there's nothing to suggest he kept it up years and years.
- Also, for what it's worth, dream-Ra's may not just be referring to Bruce's efforts as Batman. Presumably, he fought 'decadence' in Gotham after giving up the cowl with his other 'resources,' such as from an economic and political angle as Bruce Wayne.
- The hallucination was in Bruce's mind. In his mind the fight did take years. From the time of his parents' murder to the time as Batman and onward.
Rat in a Trap
- What was Foley thinking when he described Batman as a "rat in a trap" when he's in an alleyway? It might be a dead-end for most of us, but Batman has repeatedly shown the ability to scale buildings, make extra holes in walls and generally go ways you weren't expecting. Even without "the Bat", letting Batman disappear down a dark alleyway and not following him is practically a guarantee he'd escape.
- Foley is a cocky douche who had never encountered Batman before. He really had no idea who he was up against.
Fear Makes You Stronger
- This is more meta than anything else, but the big "thing" from the pit prison is that fear is what gave Bruce the strength to make the jump. In that sense, fear made him stronger. So doesn't that mean that all this time he's been using fear as a weapon against his enemies, he's been making them stronger? Doesn't that mean the League of Shadows has been working to make their enemies stronger?
- No, because the lesson isn't "any and all fear always makes the person who's afraid stronger."
- What his enemies generally had was superstitious fear and blind panic. It's really well demonstrated in 'Batman: Mask of the Phantasm' and in the Arkham games where the last few guys are often in a blind panic nearly shooting each other and cowering if you appear too close to them. Batman by contrast was implied not to really care if he lived or died by the time of Bane's attacks and without the desire to live he wasn't fighting at full capacity.
Bane's Xanatos Robbery
- Bane's escape from the stock exchange seems dependent on the police cars parking in a certain way so as to leave a clear path, and also because he's had a cement truck driver station his truck on a certain corner so that the cops can't block that street. But what if the police cars that responded came to a stop in different locations such that there was no clear escape path for him? I suspect he probably had some alternate escape routes planned if the cement truck wasn't enough to give him a clean escape route.
- Bane's escape plan involved jumping over the cop cars using the anti-truck bomb barriers as a ramp on his dirtbikes. As for the other part of your comment, it would be stranger if the police had no basic strategy for parking their cars in a hostage situation. After all, they need to use them as cover and as barricades, and if the officers just parked them wherever they wanted, it could create a logjam. If the police have a strategy for parking, Bane can learn it and exploit it.
Accept No Imitations
- Why does Bane automatically assume Bruce is back just because somebody burned a Batman symbol onto the bridge? Batman imitators used to make the news all the time. Gordon had a bat signal for at least a year. It's not unheard of that somebody is imitating Batman or even just using the symbol as a sign of rebellion.
- It would be extremely difficult for a random person to climb the bridge, spread whatever flammable material around, and ignite it, all without being seen by either Bane's men or the army. Batman, however, would have had the training to do that. The psychological impact of the image would have also seemed more like something Bruce would have done ("theatricality and deception...") to hit back at Bane.
Seriously, Why Don't You Just Shoot Him?
- Okay, 2 things bug me.....why didn't the cops and gunmen shoot Batman and Bane during the final fight near the end? You mean to tell me not one cop thought about shooting Bane(or at least wounding him)? Second question, how was Bane able to smash a pillar with his bare hands. He's not comic book Bane. That should have hurt his hands, no matter how strong he is. He was still human.
- 1: They are occupied brawling with Bane's henchmen. And even if one of them was able to get to his gun, it would be hard to get a clean shot when you risk hitting one of your own comrades.
- To the first question shooting Bane might have been too big a risk when you had targets still in your face to deal with and Batman appeared to have it in hand. Batman's relationship with the police is complex in the Dark Knight trilogy and between Gordan admitting that the Bat didn't kill Harvey Dent, he took the blame because destroying Dent was seen as too high a price. When he shows up to the initial chase the only cop who appears to REALLY care about catching Batman just happens to be in charge and the cops don't disobey orders, at least one of them exclaimed "Your in for a show tonight kid." Between that and the NUKE they still had in their city even the most skeptical of cops probably figured something along the lines of "If we're still alive we can try to catch him in the morning." As for Bane punching through solid stone he is BASED on comic book Bane and probably had some measure of super strength. Probably based on the mask, he maybe doing A LOT of damage to himself but it blocks enough pain and possibly turns off those pesky limiters that humans have built in to prevent us from hurting ourselves.
Stock Exchange Security
- From the stock exchange robbery, how do the three henchmen get their weapons past the security checkpoint?
- They smuggled them in through innocuous means. One guy had his stashed in a mop bucket.
- Additionally, why are the barriers outside the stock exchange ramps? Why not utilize spike strips?
- A spike strip will flatten tires, but the car's going to keep going. Those ramps are solid barriers that would stop anyone going in and prevent cars from getting out thanks to the angle. Bikes can bypass a lot of barriers meant to stop larger vehicles.
That's Batitude For Ya
- I just realized the doctor who helped Bruce recover is still rotting in the pit. Shouldn't Bruce go back and rescue him? His city is safe from Bane, but those poor guys are still locked up.
- Bruce dropped a rope down to let all the prisoners out. You can assume they managed to get out by themselves.
- Shouldn't Bruce be out of shape? If a regular guy was cooped up in his house for 5-10 years and depressed, he would be almost as big as Fat Albert, or at least have a pot belly. I would have loved to see a montage of Bruce whipping his body back in shape to stop Bane.
- Bruce has been intensively exercising since he was eight years old. Even if he stops being Batman and is depressed he's still going to work out at least some, because he's still addicted to the "runner's high". And the movie does make a point of Bruce not quite being what he used to be — he was still staying in shape (after all, he has an entire private gym in there) but between advancing age and having been on the bench a while, he was not fully up to peak condition.
- How is the Batpod so destructive? Catwoman takes out Tumblers with single shots from the Batpod's guns, while entire barrages from the Bat don't even seem to dent the Tumblers. Also, despite being just as heavily armed as Batman's Tumbler, or even more so, why don't Bane's Tumblers eject Batpods as well?
- All the Tumblers don't necessarily have Batpods, and that's only going to save one of the drivers anyway.
The Worf Effect
- Why does Batman use such a poor selection of gadgets the first time he fought Bane? You might argue that the Nolanverse Batman's utility belt carries far fewer gadgets than the comics version, but he still had the gauntlet shuriken blades capable of embedding themselves in steel, and presumably staple gadgets like the grappling gun. Even without shooting Bane with the grapple gun like Batman does all the time in comics, why not use it to evade Bane?
- I think you're forgetting the context here. When they first fight, Bane lures Batman into an ambush. The only reason Batman didn't get gunned down on the spot was because Bane wanted to kick his ass. Best case scenario, Batman grapples out and they shoot him. Not only that, he's fighting in close quarters and is also rather arrogant. He thought he could just kick Bane's ass and be done with it. Once Bane turned that on its head, Batman wasn't exactly thinking straight.
- Bane says, about The Pit, that "Every man who has rotted here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom. And like shipwrecked men turning to seawater from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying." A little while after this monologue, they show a failed escape attempt by one of the prisoners in The Pit. The prisoner falls a distance of what has to be at least 60 feet before the rope stops his descent and he crashes into the wall. While it's hard to tell, it also appears that his body is limp and that he presumably died from the fall, going along with what Bane said. But when Bruce attempts the jump and fails, he's simply lowered back down and returned to his cell.
If a prisoner could theoretically attempt the climb as many times as he wanted without (significantly) risking death, where's the despair that Bane was talking about? He said "Many have died trying," but who would be stupid enough to try without the rope unless they REALLY thought they could make it? Just try everyday and hope for the best. The rope is there to keep you alive if you fail. That's not hope and despair... that's just "[shrug] Better luck next time" in my opinion. I initially thought that even with the rope, the fall plus the impact of hitting the wall would kill, if not seriously injure or maim, the jumper.
- It really isn't "better luck next time." After the first several tries, you realize that you're not going to make it, and even if the rope makes it non-fatal, it's going to hurt like hell every single time you fail. Look at when Bruce fails — he's shouting in pain because it's a rigid rope that's hammering his sides and ribs every time he hits bottom. If you try something a dozen times and not only do you fail each time but you get kicked viciously in the ribs every time, yeah, you're going to start despairing.
- Bruce Wayne is no longer Batman, right? Wouldn't that drive him nuts? It's sweet that he decided to spend the rest of his life with Selina, but I can't picture Bruce giving up Batman for good. He was obsessed with it.
- He gets over it. That's kind of the whole point.
Leaving Alfred Hanging
- So, the entire first round of Batman vs Bane is mostly just Bane beating the ever-loving shit out of Bats, then breaking him. Then Bruce sort of gets better in prison, then he comes back to Gotham, and now he can inexplicably fight toe-to-toe with Bane. ...What?! In round 1 his punches had no effect, but no for some reason they do?
- Batman was out of shape the first time and stupidly overconfident. The second time he's more realistic about it, and Bane's still physically superior. He would have lost had he not gone for the mask.
Character Shilling Bane
- What's up with the Character Shilling of Bane by Alfred? At that point in the movie, all he'd really done is rob a bank. It was a daring, well-executed bank heist, sure. (Although some of the machinations involved fall apart under scrutiny.) But he's hardly "like nothing you've ever faced before" when he's following an act like The Dark Knight's Joker.
- Because Alfred is not talking about just that one thing. Bane is an international terrorist with a reputation for being cunning, ruthless, and extremely dangerous, and for being kicked out of the League of Shadows for being too extreme.
- And how does Alfred know all that?
- Remember his big monologue in the previous movie? Where he explains that he was part of a squad whose job was basically to go after people exactly like Bane? Because he pays attention to what's going on in the outside world, and his past gives him connections to learn these kinds of things.
Bane traps the police and... feeds them?
- Why didn't Bane just seal up the ventilation in the tunnels holding the cops and then pump in carbon monoxide? Why did he want the police to survive until the nuke went off? He could have just lied to the people of Gotham about the police being alive - after all, his men controlled the only remaining entrances to the tunnels. Even if he never conceived of Bruce's return, Bane failed to even consider that the cops might find a way to escape on their own. Killing them off would have at least reduced the miniscule possibility of a threat to his plans to zero possibility.
- Bane wanted the citizens to suffer from their hope before dying. He wasn't going to make it easy on anyone. The cops count as citizens too, and he wanted them to suffer just as much as anyone.
Alfred is an expert on criminals?
- How does Alfred know how Joker and Bane think?
- He was Special Forces when he was young, and then went on to do mercenary work before eventually ending up as Thomas Wayne's butler. Alfred has been dealing with criminals and terrorists of all types for decades. He knows a lot about what makes them tick by now.
- On a similar note, how did he know so much about Bane?