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Re: the Reasonable Authority Figure entry.
An edit was made removing Elthina and Cullen from the entry (leaving only the Viscount and Thrask), on the basis: "Elthina pays lip service to 'neutrality' while doing nothing to reign in fanatics. Cullen vocally supports Meredith's methods until the last possible moment."
I would argue that on that basis the Viscount also doesn't deserve to be listed: he does basically nothing but defer to Meredith (the first mention we get of both of them, right after Hawke arrives in Kirkwall, flat out says that he never tries to contradict Meredith's decisions), or appeal to Hawke to sort things out in a way that keeps anything politically awkward at arm's distance. He's not a reasonable authority figure, he's just an ineffectual figurehead. Elthina at least is trying to keep the peace between two increasingly extremist factions, and Cullen is willing to be swayed or reasoned with into giving second chances (with Keras, and grudgingly with Alain), and we do get the sense over the course of the game that he's noticing what's wrong and trying not to make it worse. Reasonable authority figure doesn't necessarily mean they're always right, or successful, or always on the hero's side, but they do try. So I'd argue that they both qualify, and that in fact the Viscount doesn't.
I don't think the current page quote is particularly illustrative of the game. Hawke in fact does not start the war between mages and templars at all, the entire point of Varric's story is that the concept of a mastermind behind the events in Kirkwall is entirely a misunderstanding. The Mage vs Templar conflict isn't even the main focus of the game till the last 1/3. Further, the Chantry doesn't finally fall apart until long after the end of Hawke's story.
Shouldn't we use one of the quotes about the thematic focus of the entire game, Hawke's rise to power, instead of one that is about a far smaller portion of the plot?
I'll admit I like the Flemmeth quote better. Plus, the [Hawk] part of the Cassandra quote is a bit jarring.
But that is what the story is framed under—it doesn't matter if Hawke didn't do it, that's what you have been lead to believe. It also doesn't particularly matter whether it doesn't actually fall apart until Act III—the entire game is building up towards it. It's like saying that The Lord of the Rings quote shouldn't be about destroying the One Ring because that doesn't happen until the very end.
My issue with Flemeth's quote is very generic. It's true of DAO, as well. It's probably true of most video games where you start out Lvl 1 rookie and up up Lvl 50 Bonemasher. I'd even say it makes more sense of DAO, since you can actually fight your destiny and what not, where Hawke is sort of unaware of what s/he is going to do throughout the game, and his/her rise to power is pretty much involuntary and accidental. Can you think of many CRP Gs where it isn't applicable?
Also, I'm pretty sure you don't simply take the quote off the page when there's a disagreement—you leave the old one up until consensus is reached to at least take the old one off.
And the brackets can be left out. That's only there because Cassandra can say 'him' or 'her' at that section.
Entries under discussion are removed until such time as an agreement is come to or about three days pass with no one responding.
I just have most of the same issues you have with the Flemeth quote reflecting DAO in regards to the current quote and DA 3. The Only One is a trope in 90% of fantasy games too. And as Discar points out, better to have a quote that works on it's own than one we have to insert [Hawke] into for gender pronoun reasons.
There are other options, if you want a quote reflecting the fact Varric is telling the story of the champion, I'm okay with that. But again, just because the quote is in the framing device doesn't mean it is a good illustration of the story that ends up being told.
Perhaps regular trope entries are, but quotes are not. Please see here.
In any case, I can agree with you that perhaps a better quote is needed overall, but I still feel like the original is superior to the Flemeth quote. It does explain part of the game, the framework, and the general point of it. You know that Hawke is not responsible for any of this, but the player is supposed to think so, and that's what the quote indicates. I think the second is especially poor because the Dragon Age games are not direct continuations of each other, so indicating how the two differ at the top of the page is a good idea. Dragon Age Origins references the Wardens, Dragon Age II references Hawke.
The original quote says two things that are important: what the story is leading to, and who it is about. Part of the realization the player is supposed to have is that the whole Chantry, mage/templar thing is only a smaller part of a big picture that led up to it. Cassandra herself recognizes this as the player does.
As far as the pronoun thing goes, you can just put 'him' or 'her' up there. Or simply remove the brackets. I don't think it's particularly important.
Still, the page is here to dissect the story as a whole, it would be better if the quote illustrated that whole rather than just the set up.
If the story of Hawke angle sounds suitably illustrative, how about:
The first one is suitable.
I'm going to change up the "Fantastic Racism" entry a bit to emphasize the prejudice against Fereldens. But I'll paste the old text here just in case someone disagrees.
Elves are sneaky and poor, forced to live in the alienage, often called "Knife Ears".
The Elves return it right back towards Humans. "Shemlen" (or its shorter form "Shem"), which in Elvish means "Quick Children" is often uttered in an insulting way among both Dalish and City Elves.
Everyone sees the Qunari as brutish monsters while the Qunari themselves subvert this trope, hating those who don't follow the Qun rather than for a racial issue. Those who convert to the Qun are welcomed with open arms, regardless of race.
Although some Qunari, such as the Avaraad, get instantly hostile when they realise they are dealing with "Bas-sarebaas", Human and Elven mages, accusing them of being Demons trying to poison their minds before attacking.
From the loading screen, no less - Never play cards with Qunari-you can never tell when they're bluffing. And never play with Elves-they never pay their debts. And never play with Dwarves-they kill you when they lose
There is Fantastic Prejudice against mages, especially since magical ability is inherited through blood.
Apparently, the Fereldan affinity with their Mabari Hounds has caused many in Kirkwall to refer to the Fereldan refugees as "Stinking Dog-Lords".
You know what? Forget it.
I don't quite get the reference under Meaningful Name to Reginald Thaddeus Spincter. Can anyone shed light on this?
Anyone think we should move the Shout-Out section to a page of its own? It's getting a bit long.
Ok, what's the problem with this page?
We now lost all the previous discussions and the history of the main page.
Because they switched the namespace from Main.Dragon Age II to VideoGame.Dragon Age II. Here is the old discussion.
Does this game really deconstruct The Big Bad? in order to deconstruct a trope, it has to be played straight and then show what nasty consequences it would have in a more realistic setting. In this game however, there is no clear The Big Bad, the article mentions Word of God saying that the real villain is the circumstances, and not a particular individual. Wouldn't that be an aversion to The Big Bad rather than a deconstruction?
Depends on what was meant by "deconstruction." If it means "how this trope might play out in real life," then it might well belong, because as noted on the main page, the big bad is circumstance — the biggest threats to Kirkwall are its social, political and religious tensions. That's pretty realistic in my book. The definition the entire wiki seems to be in love with, however, and I guess this is why it's shoehorned into any page where it'll fit, is something along the lines of "play a trope straight and show why it totally SUCKS!". In which case it's not an example.
What happened to the Headscratchers page?
Huh. The page itself is blank. The history has been wiped too. Wonder what caused that.
And sadly, we're likely going to have to rehash all those lengthy discussions now, unless the page can be recovered.
I vote if the page is recovered, we make an archive.
I'm tempted to say "And nothing of value was lost" here, considering that some of the discussions were downright ridiculous (the "Why not kill every mage" topic was one of worst, but by no means the only one) but some good discussion was lost too.
There is still a history page so not everything was lost.
Hm. It might have been purged for going over character limit. We can use Ask The Tropers.
@madhammerer: No, it was removed entirely.
Thats the first result for looking up the headscratchers page but it isnt on the actual pge for some reason, just to give an example if that link doesnt work
That's the Dragon Age Origins page.
So, is there any way to recover the page, or will a new one have to be started eventually?
Probaably a new one will be needed.
Well, we have something up now...but I wouldn't exactly call it impressive. So all Archives are completely gone now?
I disagree with the identification of several of the Fantasy Counterpart Culture characterizations. Here's how I see them in the context of the high middle ages:
Ferelden/Free Marches=British Isles
Elves=Vaguely Welsh with some Irish elements
Dwarves=Germanic and Norse
Qunari=tougher to categorize, but similar to how medeival Europeans saw eastern peoples, especially Muslims.
I don't think that each Thedas nation has an exact Earth counterpart. For example: Spain was a very powerful state that was feared for its armada, while Antiva is a weak state that would have been conquered long ago if not for its assassins.
I agree that it's not a 1:1 correlation, however, from a cultural standpoint Spain seems more fitting than Italy.
Oh, and the Rivaini seem like obvious gypsies to me as well.
The Free Marches are also more directly the Free Cities in Germany with more land, right down to vaguely German names.
The Karma Meter is based upon morality, NOT attitude. If there's no morality, it is not this trope. Hence the word "karma". While I agree there is some form of tracking the way the player behaves, it isn't a Karma Meter.
The kicker here is you're trying to take the traits of one trope and apply it to a different—currently nonexisting, because the personality tracker is unique—trope. Square Peg, Round Trope.
The game may attempt a Grey on Gray aversion, but a morality does emerge when following a consistent behavior pattern, and it's reflected in tone and other characters' reactions. No matter what the authors say, implementation doesn't match intent.
Occasionally, yes. And then there are other times when a diplomatic character is cool with blood magic because it's the get along thing to do, or when the aggressive character defends the helpless because the intent was to be be aggressive, not angry.
Occasionally, yes, in practice, the blue means good and the red means bad. But not enough to warrant calling it a Karma Meter. It tracks the way you speak to people, not the morality of your character. The ability to threaten a slaver at knifepoint doesn't make you an evil or bad person—it's just that it was an aggressive thing to do, so it belongs on the aggressive side.
I see your point, I do. But it's not a Karma Meter. It's something very similar to one in method, but the very bottom line nature of this trope conflicts with what a Karma Meter actually is. The most important aspect is morality—as the ability to track morality is absent, it is not a Karma Meter.
The folder system in the Just Bugs me page broke. We're going to have to split the pages.
Why does the page state several times that Anders is useful for his healing? There's only one healing spell in the entire game and both he and Bethany can use it, or mage Hawke.
He's the only character besides a Mage Hawke with the Spirit Healer specialization who can heal the whole party and revive fallen party members.
? His specialization has several talents devoted for healing. He can heal the entire party and revive fallen party members (it can even happen randomly when a character falls).
Bethany only has one healing power.
Oh. Huh, guess I should have put some points in his specialty then.
I could have sworn that David Gaider confirmed that the "neighbor that Hawke wishes would put some clothes on" is a Shout-Out to Friends. If I can find the post, I will re-add it.
It'd be great if it were—I'll try to look for it myself. But that's a gag I've seen a few times, so I didn't think so.
Thanks. I thought it was in that topic, but I was certain that it was Gaider who said it, so I missed it and searched 20 or so pages of forum topics without success.
I usually do Google searches. Entering site:social.bioware.com and then entering the keywords and dev you want usually comes out with the result, if that helps for later reference. The BSN search function isn't even there anymore.
Should we make mention of the massive amount of controversy around this game? EA lying about there being DRM in the game, the Day-One DLC, the dev giving it a 10/10 review on Metacritic, the massive difference between user reviews and critic reviews, the guy not being able to play the game because he was suspended on his Bioware Forums Account.
No. Fan reaction has nothing to do with tropes.
Look, I can't be the only one that comes to this site to find out what people actually THINK of the various media. Not just to read a boring list of different things popping up in the media in question. We're not supposed to be Wikipedia 2.0.
There's a review tab on the works page. Also the YMMV tab. I could also argue that the controversy has been blown out of proportion, but I don't feel like getting into a debate. Suffice it to say, people who dislike something are more likely to talk about it than those who like it.
Problem is that reviews show different opinions, same problem with various review sites. And Wikipedia has the whole "Not notable enough!" thing. TV Tropes, in the way the various articles are written, show the general opinion of the masses.
And really, the controversy isn't blown outta proportions, it's all over the web.
As I already said, I don't want to get into a debate. No Such Thing As Notability refers to the fact that any work can be used as an example or given a page. Contrast this to Wikipedia's policy of only referencing works that they feel are notable. Opinions and subjective tropes are not allowed on most pages because they tend to lead to flame wars.
But this isn't an opinion, that there's been controversy about the game is A FACT.
Even if I agreed with you, not including fan reactions in main works pages is a site policy, thus this argument is best made with the mods.
It's site policy until you come across a game you don't like.
Squig Pie, it doesn't matter if you can prove controversy exists. It's an Audience Reaction which is not part of the work, so it belongs on the YMMV tab.
There seems to be an unspoken law in effect here. "Anything posted on the DAII page will be deleted within half an hour, without explanation, regardless of content." Stop it.
You'll have to explain what.
Voting to remove just about all instances of Bi the Way and Everyone Is Bi on the main and character pages alike. The only openly bisexual character is Isabella. The rest are either gay or straight depending on how you play the game, rather than casually bisexual. If Hawke is male and gets into a relationship with Fenris, then Fenris is gay. If Hawke is female and gets into a relationship with Fenris, then Fenris is straight. There is never any indication otherwise. This is intentional. (Yes, there's that one instance where Anders has two flirt options and one broken heart option, with nothing in between, but that seems more like an oversight on Bioware's part.)
Is it impossible to romance Fenris as a male Hawke after he and Isabela have the conversation that reveals they're shacking up? If so that would confirm that he's bi. Merrill's also bi; romancing her as a female Hawke still has her mention that she considered the qunari to be eye candy.
Gaider has confirmed several times over that not every LI is bisexual. He flat-out said on the BSN that Anders is pansexual and wrote a post on his Tumblr that discusses how, even in Awakening, Anders was written having no fixed gender preferences despite primarily talking about women and not mentioning his relationship with Karl (which, according to Gaider, is canon) to F!Hawke.
Isabela's bi. No two-ways about that one.
Gaider has confirmed that Danarius sexually abused Fenris, but how much his sexuality is influenced by that is up for debate, though it's likely that he's the only LI with strictly subjective sexuality. And no, you can't pursue a romance with him if he moves on to Isabela—if they do start sleeping together, you're locked out of both of their romances and can't complete them.
Merrill's comment on the qunari being "easy on the eyes" occurs regardless of whether she's romanced and regardless of Hawke's gender. She makes no equivalent comments towards any female-bodied characters or NP Cs, which I think is important to note; if anything, she's likely a 1 on the Kinsey Scale (predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual) because she's receptive to being romanced by F!Hawke.
The Characters subsection is getting a bit big to simply list every non-party member under "Other Characters". What say something like "Hawke's Family" (Hawke, Bethany, Carver, Leandra, and Gamlen), "Party Members", "Major Characters" (Arishok, Merideth, etc.), and "Minor Characters" (Bodahn/Sandal, Donnic, etc.)?
I think the Arishok deserves a listing as "That One Boss". Maybe it was just me but fighting him solo took me quite a few tries. Anyone else?
Is it just me or does [Spoiler:Meredith's Sword] look like a certain artifact from a Namco game?
Quick question about the leaks. I know we're keeping them off the page until release (which I agree with) but when exactly could we start adding new tropes? We could do so on the release date, but logically speaking most people wouldn't be that far in the game, so the information would have to come from the leaks. So when do we start?
I say everything is fair game starting on the 8th.
Wouldn't the Buxom Is Better trope go on the main page, instead? That's just the human female model, and has nothing to do particularly with the character.
Actually, its only in the exaggerated introduction that Bethany's chest is hillariously large. When Varric starts telling the truth, she is down to a normal, more believable size. Hawke has a similarly sized chest to her sister.
Isabela on the other hand, apparently got a couple bra sizes bigger between games.
This is a new development, actually. It used to be for every model, until the forums complained and women were brought down to more reasonable sizes. Except Isabela.
Which reminds me: Does Isabela even qualify for the Boobs of Steel trope? She's clearly a melee fighter, but a Female Hawke and Aveline are strong contenders as well without being...of larger size.
Eh, most likely but Isabela isn't a Warrior, she's a rogue, which means she does it from behind.
Is it just me, or did the developers hint that Merrill's a love interest in that new dev diary? I'm not adding any information until it's outright confirmed, but I was seriously feeling a strong vibe there. Did anyone else notice it as well?
I would say it's outright confirmed. It's definitely her.
They've confirmed that its Merril, but they're won't say whether she's a love interest.
I see—but, then, their favorite thing to do is to try to make obvious things less obvious. For now, it's speculation, but I will eat my hat if it's not her. It's totally her.
Yep shes a love interest. She was one of the four confirmed on Valentine's Day along with Fenris, Isabella and Anders.
We've heard maybe five lines so far and we've already got someone putting down Dull Surprise?
No, you really can't tell. Since a Dull Surprise is a facial expression, with nothing to do with the quality of the voice.
I don't know if default Hawke is supposed to be a mage. I remember seeing Warrior Hawke wearing the trailer outfit in the class/gender selection videos. In addition, Bethany is being billed as a major party member and has shown up in the released gameplay videos when, in actually, she dies early on if Hawke is a mage.
Hawke is supposed to be a Mage. While I was playing the demo, theres a bit of a time skip during Kirkwall where even if you're a Warrior/Rogue, Carver is still mysteriously alive during the little cinematic trailer. So yeah, I guess that makes Mage Hawke canon. Poor Bethany.
There is no such thing as canon. There is the marketing version that they use, and it is a mage.
He's alive because they recorded that scene, it's not an in-game engine render. And they simply forgot to record the Bethany version as well.
Is it time for a YMMV page on this? Every single decision seems to simultaneously indicate that Dragon Age is Growing the Beard, Ruined Forever, going to be So Cool Its Awesome, So Okay, It's Average, and pretty much every other opinion trope to different groups of fans, non-fans who are looking at the game, or the growing anti-fandom from the CRPG community. (Which, though Your Mileage May Vary, seems to do a lot of nitpicking and whining over nothing)
I was considering it, but that would require moving almost every trope on this page.
Everything is YMMV right now. Personally, I'm in favor of being very selective about what's included, and altering the article as opinions change. For instance, Hawke before the Destiny trailer was much reviled. Destiny trailer came out, and opinions changed rapidly. Some people still don't like him, but most people have accepted not playing the Warden and many grew to like him.
At this tenuous state in time for a game—that is, pre-release—opinions are going to vary wildly and are much subject to change. I also think I should point out that the Bio Ware Social Network isn't exactly the be-all, end-all of personal opinions on the game.
Screw it, I'm creating Dragon Age II
Edit: All done. There weren't as many subjectives as I thought.
I went ahead and made a preliminary character page because, let's face it, this page is gonna get long
Good idea—more information is being released about the companions as it is, and it seems like half of the page was dedicated to them anyway. It'll save from some headaches later.
I removed the Ensemble Dark Horse entry on Varric for the following reason:
Granted, the fans latched onto him as soon as they saw him when very little information was available. However, we also knew from the very beginning that he would be narrating the story. By itself, that disqualifies him from Ensemble Dark Horse status since that clues us in that he's a major character and not a minor one.
Has it been officially confirmed that Hawke is always a human warrior? Or is that merely an assumption made based on the trailers depicting a default Hawke?
He is always human, and it is heavily implied that Hawke from the trailer is a mage, not a warrior. We don't know why he uses so many melee attacks. Arcane Warrior, perhaps. You can be a mage, warrior, or rogue.
Trailer Hawke is a blood mage.
Is it to soon to add a Wild Mass Guessing page? We've got more than enough information to start the wild theories.
It's never too soon to WMG
Sure. Speculation is pretty much all we can do. And at least if we get a WMG early, we can say I Knew It!!
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How well does it match the trope?