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Jan 11th 2020 at 2:39:30 AM •••

  • During Captain America Civil War Tony accuses Steve of letting his emotions cloud his reasoning regarding his opposition to the Sokovia Accords, even though Tony\'s own reasons for supporting them is largely due to his own guilt. Tony then throws reason out the window in the final act as he tries to kill Bucky over something Bucky had no control over. Even worse he only was concerned about being held in check after a mother of one of Ultrons victims, an American abroad, personally showed up herself to confront him regarding Sokovia. Tony took no action regarding regulation after Ultron totalled Sokovia with its dead and massive property damage. But one dead American victim later and he is using the victims death as an example as to why the Avengers need to sign the accords.

This was removed by Team Tony stating

Tony supports the accords because of the civilian lives lost and damage caused. Also, it\'s perfectly reasonable and not hypocritical for him to get emotional upon discovering that his parents were murdered and that steve lied about it. Finally, there is absolutely no evidence to support the notion of Tony only getting guilty after the mother approached him. In fact, that goes against Tony\'s established guilt complex.

However his guilt was shown by the reaction to the mothers statement. He made no overtues to regulation till AFTER his confrontation with the mother. Also he used the example of the mothers son an american death as reason to enforce the accords. If he was concerned prior to that then the movie would have shown that.

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Jan 12th 2020 at 3:47:25 PM •••

Tony was already established to have a massive guilt complex prior to Civil War, so it can be assumed that he would be concerned and probably guilty (even though he had nothing to with the deaths in Lagos) before the mother approaches him. The movie doesn\'t show Tony not being guilty beforehand either.

Either way, Tony not feeling guilty until the mother confronts him doesn\'t mean he doesn\'t feel guilty over non-Americans. Seeing as how he wasn\'t involved in the incident in Lagos, he doesn\'t have anything to feel guilty over (but, given his guilt complex, he likely does anyway).

If anyone has a disturbing implication in their actions, it\'s Steve, who spends the entire movie ignoring the deaths he caused in favour of protecting his white best friend Bucky. Something that\'s repeated in Infinity War.

Jan 13th 2020 at 3:17:03 AM •••

However the hypocrite part is not only it not caring about Avenger collaotarl damage in AOG till Civil War. Is that he believes that the Anti-accord Avengers are not signing because they are letting emotions (Pride, Stubbornness) preventing them from sighing over logic. When the only reason Tony tried to force the accords is because of emotion on Tony\'s part (guilt). Also it was not established he had massive guilt complex because after AOG we donít see Tony suffering any guilt or issues over the massive death count UNTIL Civil War. So no proof of massive guilt, heck after the whole ruckus he goes to retire. Shown proof of guilt not assumed guilt. Not only that 1) he reacts with guilt only when confronted with the results of his actions literally years after the fact and 2) he does not only used the massive loss of Sokovian lives as reason to sign but makes to make a major point out the one American who died, hence the unfortunate implications part.

Edited by Tuvok
Jan 13th 2020 at 5:35:08 AM •••

A) Tony wasnít the one forcing the accords.

B) Tony wasnít signing the accords because he felt guilty. He was signing because people had died and it was the fault of the Avengers. Those 117 countries had the right to want the Avengers to be under someoneís control.

C) Tonyís guilt complex is established in Iron Man 3, before both AOU and Civil War.

D) Tony uses one person as an example of a face and a name to put on this tragedy and that means that he values the American more than the others who died? This doesnít make any sense. Especially your mention of Sokovian lives, given that the incident under discussion at that point was the one in Lagos, Nigeria.

Jan 13th 2020 at 6:11:08 AM •••

A) Tony wasnít the one forcing the accords.

Tony showed up to the Avengers with the spokesmen for the Accords. Putting his support behind the accords. Helped drafted the accords and supported Ross statement sign or retire. That is forcing the accords.

B) Tony wasnít signing the accords because he felt guilty. He was signing because people had died and it was the fault of the Avengers. Those 117 countries had the right to want the Avengers to be under someoneís control.

There is no indication of that in the film, that Tony was motivated to sign because of what happened with Crossbones. We see him confronted with his mistakes regarding Ultron then showing up to the Avengers supporting Ross giving them sign or retire statement. He responds with a look of guilt after the confrontation with the mother of an American killed abroad then responds emotionally. We see guilt then his response. That is an example of feeling guilt and responding due to it.

C) Tonyís guilt complex is established in Iron Man 3, before both AOU and Civil War.

Your statement was that he felt guilt for his actions leading to the death and destruction of others, prior to Sokovia leading to his belief in the accords. However there is no indication of this being what lead to him signing the accords. No guilt in response to Ultron shown UNTIL Civil war where he acted on it. When confronted with it then he acts on it. He forced the issue not to previous losses of life or any guilt for previous actions but for his actions in UOA

D) Tony uses one person as an example of a face and a name to put on this tragedy and that means that he values the American more than the others who died? This doesnít make any sense. Especially your mention of Sokovian lives, given that the incident under discussion at that point was the one in Lagos, Nigeria.

Seeing as he gave a big speech about the American who died as the major point as to why they should sign. As the final corner stone of signing and using it as an example seemingly gives it priority. The fact that he took no action about the deaths in Sokovia until confronted by a mother of an American who was killed is why itís a text book of Unfortunate Implications. While the incident was about Laos he used the result of Ultron as a reason to sign. Forcing the Avengers to give up automy in partly to assage his guilt.

I would recommend we flag a mod for final ruling or perhaps move it to ATT

Edited by Tuvok
Jan 14th 2020 at 2:48:25 AM •••

Moved to ATT and have advised Team Tony.

Edited by Tuvok
Jan 15th 2020 at 5:03:43 AM •••

Question: Is Tony ever called out for any hypocrisy within the movie itself? I had thought that was a requirement for In Universe hypocrites, but skimming the definition that does not seem to be the case.

Regardless, if he is called out on it at any point, it could settle the issue. My personal test for whether something is an example or not with tropes like this is \"can it be lampshaded in universe\"

Jan 15th 2020 at 5:30:42 AM •••

Looking at the examples in Film/Hypocrite a majority does not get called out in film or ever. It just exists as hypocrisy. Rarely does this ever get pointed out to the chracter responsibe their hyocrisy. Hence so many examples.

Edited by Tuvok
Jan 15th 2020 at 11:15:07 AM •••

Which is exactly why I thought I\'d seen a conversation somewhere about needing some in universe acknowledgement of the hypocrisy.

Turns out there has been mention of it. Looking up some old posts on edit/banned for the heck of it I came across a mod post ( https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=5cma6iojg5o27puhulc24sje&page=523#comment-13073 ) that does say \"[Hypocrite] is not an audience reaction; it must be noted in the work\".

Granted the post is from 2016, but still.

Edited by sgamer82
Jan 15th 2020 at 3:44:28 PM •••

In which case most of the examples currently noted would have to be removed. Because in most of these examples no one points out or calls the character in question hypocrites in the film directly. The hypocrisy is in the actions noted.

Edited by Tuvok
Jan 16th 2020 at 11:33:29 AM •••

All that means is that most of the examples currently noted would have to be removed. Misuse is misuse, regardless of scale.

Jan 16th 2020 at 12:24:34 PM •••

Yeah there\'s currently a discussion in ATT on how to proceed

Jul 17th 2014 at 3:16:38 PM •••

Palpatine, Star Wars;

"All throughout the Star Wars prequel trilogy until his mask came off, Palpatine/Darth Sidious was a ginormous hypocrite. He pretended to care for the people of Naboo, while secretly arranging for their destruction. He pretended to love democracy and the Republic, again while secretly arranging for their destruction and putting himself in place of an autocrat."

I don't think this count as hypocrisy, since he deliberately lied about it.

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