You probably mean Arc Villain, not Arch-Enemy, right? Him being the latter to the team is pretty much universally accepted due to the personal betrayal. As for Arc Villain, I don't think this trope is necessarily a trope for a villain in charge only. Besides, strictly talking about the first half of Season 3 (which the entry is all about), Malick only appeared in episode 6 out of 9. His main screentime was after Hive returned to Earth.
As for the Anti-Villain part, I mean you no offense, but I think you are sometimes a little too convicted in trying to see absolutely nothing good in the character whatsoever. it is true that he was manipulative, nothing excuses his crimes, and he certainly did it in the worst way possible, but in the first half of Season 2 he genuinely did want to help Daisy (Unwanted Assistance, sure, but still). After being on the run, there really wasn't any reason for him to not just run far away and hide from everybody if he had really not cared in the slightest. He did genuinely want to reunite Daisy with her father, was disgusted by Whitehall ordering the plane being shot out of the sky and did side with her and her dad against Whitehall's men when push came to shove. Again, that does not mean that his crimes are excused, but it did give him at least a little bit of a sympathetic quality. It was only after Daisy shot him that he decided to abandon any good intentions entirely and went full villain without the Anti part. There was a reason why a huge part of the fandom speculated that he might yet be redeemed, which was only fully abandoned by the point where he kidnapped Bobby and tortured her (a few extremely Draco in Leather Pants fans excluded).
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On review Arc Villain is right, my error
However an Anti Villian has to have something to show good in their actions despite the horrific acts leading to it. Ward did one good action. He got Bakshi and handed him in. Then when it was useful he took him back again. That is not an anti villain act. Also he did not occasionally help the team. The first act that could come close was Bakshi and that is debatable when he took him back when he wanted to further manipulate Kara. The second time was the rescue operation and that was to place Kara to kidnap Bobbi in order to brutally torture her for Kara's closure. So that is not occasionally helping the team at all. The definition is clear . A villain with heroic goals. Or evil ends but noble methods of accomplishing it. Helping Kara , noble. Kidnap and torture not noble. He also did not have a heroic goal per say . Earning the teams trust would have been it if he had been genuine. So Anti Villain does not apply. If he does not do terrible things for a heroic end, which he did not. Does not apply
You didn't respond to my reasoning to him helping Daisy though. Also, another good example on why I would call him an Anti-Villain early on who then transitioned into a full-on villain: In Season 1, shortly after his true allegiance was revealed, he was given extensive backstory explaining his actions, evoking sympathy. And when he dropped Fitz Simmons into the ocean, it was still treated as a sad event for him. He did it, sure, but he took no pleasure in it and seemed quite affected by it. Contrast that to Season 3, where he has no problems anymore capturing, torturing and threatening them, and where his actions got to a point where even his brother would call him out that their certainly tragic backstory didn't excuse all that.
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Ward is not an Arc Villain. He appears in the first two seasons, so he reccurs for more than one story arc.
Wow my original reply was a disjointed mess. One should never multitask while attempting to organised ones point. 1) The example states that Grant is a wild card. That he helps the group a couple of times showing his anti villain credentials. However he has only interacted with the team after his escape twice . The first time was when he dropped off Sunil. However we see later on he has replaced him as Whitehalls second. All to reunite Daisy with her father as promised. 2) This is not for the greater good. Daisy did not want the reunion and in doing say put the rest of the team at risk and would have died without May’s action. His action with Sunil does not become an act of good intent as the intent was to gain a position in Whitehalls favour. 3) The second act he commited with the team was indeed a rescue mission. However the moral intent of this act becomes questionable as in a) not only was in a ruse to place Kara in position to abduct Bobbi but b) again he is not helping the team. In fact he is attacking them and in fact lays a trap to kill a few of them. 4) So with that him ‘ helping’ on occasion is not actually true. First act was to gain advantage as was the second act. With any villainous act towards noble goal. Or act done with good intent or effect. He is not an Anti Villain by definition 5 The closest would be his goal to help Kara, but his help was giving her what he thought she needed ( revenge) instead of what she needed ( healing and recovery)
Alright, we're just gonna have to agree on the thing with Daisy's father, as I think that even misguided help is not a purely villainous thing by definition, and once again, he did genuinely promise the rest of the team a safe getaway, Whitehall just pulled rank on him. But for the sake of compromise I'd be willing to rewrite the entry and put it under Noble Demon instead of Anti-Villain.
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- disagree
Noble Demon also does not apply because Ward DOES go the extra mile. If he had let Fitzsimmons go in season one, then it would apply. If he had let Ace go and escape then it would apply. If he had stayed his hand, did a decent act here or there. Regret does not equal nobility. An act of honor does. Even more so in season two, using a broken agent in need of serious help to capture another agent, brutally torture said agent and lay an ambush to kill other agents trying to rescue the agent you abducted? Regret, second guessing but not actually taking noble actions or abiding by a code disqualifies from the trope.
Why are you disagreeing to yourself? Also you said so yourself, misguided help. That is somewhat of an understatement. It is also definitely not an act of noble intent done with villainous means.
Because it ultimately did amount to something good (Daisy reconnecting with her father) even if she was originally opposed to it.
As for the noble act, once again, promising that nobody would get hurt if Raina and Daisy would be surrendered, which he did intend to keep up, but Whitehall pulled rank and ordered the destruction regardless. And he did side with Daisy and her father against Whitehall, despite being heavily outnumbered.
I would never argue with him dropping all intents afterwards, and you can surely have the opinion that Daisy still had the right to shoot him, but there is no denying that before that he did try to help her in his own way.
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The goal was Daisy's gratitude not a good act. A good act would entail not joining up with HYDRA to force a reunion. A perceived good act differs from am actual good act.
He promised nobody would get hurt only to end the Mexican stand off. He only tried to keep the promise to ensure co-operation. That is not nobility , but practicality.
Being practical is not being noble. A Noble Demon follows a code or occasionally PetsTheDog to show the noble side
Also he brought the threat to the team, basically forcing Daisy's compliance. Neither a good act nor noble.
Helping in his own way , without heroic intent or noble actions. Does not qualify as an AntiVillain or as a {{Noble Demon.}} Half acts or assumptions do not justify the trope, especially ones clearly defined. Not to mention his 'good' act was to win over one person. That is not a good act, its a calculated one. Even furthering Ward from the trope. A good act is making up for his mistakes, an anti villain act would be doing it with dark or evil methods. A good act done for personal gain does not count.
Once again, I disagree, but I'm gonna have to cut this short and go to sleep now. Maybe we'll work out a compromise / alternate trope tomorrow.
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As you wish. An alternative may be in order but I truly dont believe AntiVillain or Noble Demon applies. The former was removed with valid reasoning and there is no indication that Ward matches either trope. Perhaps a mod is needed.
Alright, my proposition is: I'm gonna expand the Wild Card entry that is already there a little and rework the Arc Villain entry into The Heavy, since Ward was the most recurring enemy in the series so far.
(Gonna go to work now)
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Heavy replacing Arc Villain makes sense. However Ward is not a Wild Card either. He didn't swing between both teams. He serve himself throughout season two. As shown in his orginal 'helping' with Sunil. That was to remove him from Whitehall so he can insert himself. In the end serving his own goal. Especially the second time 'helping' which inserted Kara to infiltrate and abduct Kara. He does not match the HeelFaceRevolvingDoor because he did not take any genuine steps of redeeming himself for past actions. Trying to give what he "thinks" his previous crush wants does not count. Also a Wild Card has no good or evil default setting. However as seen in season two going on a murder spree, including a scientist he kidnapped for Kara. As well as that soldier he killed kidnapping Sunil "back" from prison where he put him in the first place. Acts done in self interest as well as that whole Kara abducting Bobbi for torture and using to kill her rescue team. Swings into evil. So in the end Ward is definitely not a Wild Card as does not match the parameters of neutrality moral wise. When most of his acts where self interest, furthering evil acts of others willingly or actively doing evil things ( murder, torture) then it definitely lacks the moral middle ground that would make Wild Card match his actions.
That is not the strict definition of a Wild Card, a Wild Card is simply somebody who constantly switches allegiances. Which is exactly what Ward did. Hell, the Joker is listed as an example (for years) and he is way more 'definitely evil' than Ward ever will be. For the first half of Season 2, Ward was unpredictable. He gave Bakshi to Team Coulson, then got him back, but not to help him either but to brainwash him. He joined Whitehall, helped kidnapping Daisy, then promptly sided with Daisy and her father against Whitehall. You can not like it, or say (like I said) that Daisy was still justified to shoot him, but simply saying 'that doesn't count because he helped kidnapping her' is not an argument against it, if anything it is an argument for it, since, again, he was acting unpredictably and changed allies. Also, just as a side note, what Garrett did to Wad is actually quite similar to what Ward did with Kara. People say that despite everything he went through, Ward can't just shift the blame for everything he did on his abusers, as he made his own choices (which is correct), but when it comes to Kara, why isn't she blamed? Also, if he had really only promised a safe getaway to end the standoff, not caring at all, he could have ordered the plane shot out of the sky himself, which he didn't. But let's cut this short, cause it seems like we are not going to agree on this. Which is kinda fitting, since the character is polarizing up to this date, with fans being unable to agree how (non-)sympathetic he was. I guess it's for the best to call a neutral, third party to decide here (meaning: a mod).
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When Ward allegiance is to himself then he is not really switching allegiance. He did not switch from Whitehall to Coulsen. He worked for Whitehall to kidnap Daisy to present her to her father. In order to switch allegiance Ward has to have an allegiance. Seeing as he didn't have allegiance to EITHER Whitehall or Coulsen . Then it doesn't count. So in the end not only did moral wise Ward does not qualify as Wild Card but allegiance wise it doesnt count either He never joined Whitehall , or was alligned with them as seen the moment when he turned against them at a moments notice. Their goals was not his He was never alligned with Coulsen, as the team never treated them as such and the one time they worked together it was part of his insertion plan for Kara Kara was not blamed because she was not in her right mind. She was emotionally and mentally damaged and fractured by Whitehall breaking her mind. Ward had a choice, a broken and confused Kara had none So in conclusion, not bouncing from one team or another. He never went from team Whitehall ( as never a member) or Team Coulson ( because they aligned out of need, and they never treated him as a team member. Also he planned on backstabbing them showing not aligned with them). Its not a matter of like but common sense. Kidnapping someone by force endangering them to reunite them unwanted with their Father is not a good thing. In any way or form. Its a selfish act not a good one. Hence not an AntiVillain Was never part of Team Whitehall or Team Coulsen so never bounced between the two. Or had the moral neutrality to qualify. Or switched from good to bad and so forth. He did one dubious act hardly qualifies as 'good' and a whole bunch of bad ones Which disqualifies from Wild Card Get a mod, any solution
Honestly I think now we're just talking technicalities. So a Wild Card has to be a 'direct' member of a team instead of just working with them to qualify as such? I think that is pretty reaching. As for the emotionally broken part, I'd say that years of abuse and then (more or less) indoctrination also would make Ward eligible for the defition of 'broken' to a degree. But anyway, I contacted a mod so lets just call it a timeout and wait for a descision.
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Not technicalities, you stated switch allegiances as a primary example. Ignoring the other aspects including switching from good and evil etc. However if a person is never aligned with either one or the other. Then they cant really switch allegiances. Not technical just pointing out using your example why among other reasons Ward is not a Wild Card
Problem is that you are making it sound as if this tropes requirements are cut and dry. That is not the case. In fact, there are many different types of it listed, with many glaringly different examples to boot.
And so far, nobody has had a problem with the written example that is already on the page for quite some time in fact, which I just wanted to expand a little.
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Actually I am using the requirements stated in the trope description itself. While different types the ones you used AntiVillain and TheJoker do not match as applied to Ward. You have found alternatives that do ie The Heavy. But Anti Villain and Joker do not as per described. If you found alternates that do, no problem. But if it does not match the description then I will point it out not out of malice but because they do not match Also nobody? @Satoshi Bakura pointed one that did not match because the description did not fit the trope.
Btw opened up a thread at ATT (no replies so far, but lets be patient).
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Good idea! Are you able to re-label it as live tv? Its still marked anime.
I PM'd a mod with a request to change the label, but it seems like the damage is done >.< Would you mind opening a new one?
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In regards to Grant Ward. Heel–Face Door-Slam has been restored after being deleted. It was originally deleted due to Ward never actually making any attempts for a Heel to face change. He never admitted he was wrong only that he missed the team. While he did rescue Daisy from Whitehall that was AFTER he put her in jeopardy to gain points from him. He never gave information to Coulson when captured and only spoke to Daisy, and then tried to use information to get her to help him escape. Never saw what he did was wrong, never made any action to rectify or make up for his actions. Even with Kara who would count as an example of Heel to face change, was just a trick to capture Bobbi and torture her and then plan to kill her rescuers. He missed the team, that doesn’t count as realising evil is not the way. In fact at the end of season two, that’s what he got from the whole thing. He missed a team, being part of one. Not that what he did was wrong, or needed to make up for.
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Foreign Troper
Alright, so there seems to have been a misunderstanding on that part where Grant pushed Thomas down the well, even I didn't realize it until now. Maybe it was intentionally overlooked, maybe not, but I just rewatched the episode and also read the script. Quote: Coulson: What about your brothers? Were you close? Thomas: Christian was a lot older, so we never really hung out much, but Grant he was my best friend. Protected me from mom and dad, from Christian. Coulson: And one day, he didn't. The day he pushed you down the well. Thomas: Grant totally changed after that. It was like he felt guilty but couldn't admit what had really happened. Instead, he kept promising never to let anyone hurt me again.
There was never anything saying that Grant pushed Thomas down the well on his own and invented the whole story with Christian forcing him to do it. In fact it's an outright confirmation that yes, Christian was abusive towards Thomas and did force Grant to do it, Grant failed to stop all this and then went WAY overboard with trying to 'protect' Thomas, which made him much worse than both Christian and his parents, but the deed was still true and Grant didn't lie at all about it. So I'm cleaning up this misconception now, that is in fact only written down that way here.
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And then Hunter replied: "Slightly unnerving coming from the guy who - just chucked you down a well." So I think you read it wrong — Grant did chuck Thomas down the well.
Yes he did, and it doesn't contradict anything. Thomas was still terrified of Grant for the part he took in the action (unwillingly or not) and that Grant didn't directly apologize for it, but reacted in such a way he became even worse than Christian. At no point whatsoever does the episode state Grant lied about Christian forcing him to do so.
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Okay , I removed {{Anti-Villain)) and ArchEnemy from Grant tags and gave clear reasons they did not apply. However they have been returned with no reason given. The reason Anti-Villain does not apply is the trope is defined : villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues. Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there are evil. In season two Grant Ward did not show any heroic goals , traits or virtues. He manipulated Daisy, kidnapped her and gaslighted Kara instead of saving her. {{Arch-Enemy)) was removed because he was not the teams most important enemy. He has played secondary threats to Garrett, Daisys mother and finally season three to Malick. He has never been their main and over reaching enemy.
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