Ask The Tropers

Personally, I think it should be made trivia and should only be noted if there is proof that the author intended it to be a saving throw. It's often used just to say "this thing is better than how it was before" or "this thing people hated isn't in this installement" even if there is no proofs that it was in response of a backlash.

Hell, I've seen an "example" that was "this thing is better than what some people initially knee-jerk assumed", ie. there wasn't even a change at all.

Edited by homogenized

I thought we already had a cleanup thread for Author's Saving Throw? If we don't already have it, we should make one.

Edited by Roseface

I proposed AST get a waiting period to let such knee-jerk die down.

There is no cleanup thread for it, I checked and found only this old TRS. I'd appreciate a cleanup thread where we can discuss such fixes.

We've recently broadened the trope definition to accomodate for non-narrative changes. However, this is the real problem that I was trying to address; a lot of tropers (you know who you are if you've been wrestling with me over AST examples before the definition change) love to go on YMMV pages of impending works and spam AST like it was the second coming of Jesus just to create hype for themselves.

I'm with Ferot on this, but I'll take a more draconian approach; AST is not to be used until after the work's release (or the update in which the AST comes for some ongoing works), as to assess the effect of the AST in question.

Edited by AnoBakaDesu "They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V The Phantom Pain

I wanted a one week waiting period since the work/patch releases as that's the smallest waiting period we got. It's used for Win Back the Crowd which has the same hype problem.

I also had an trope idea, "Adaptation Perfection", for adaptations of work that improved or fix X from the original (Better Than Canon but for official works). AST is about fixing the original work, but I've seen it oft applied to adaptions that don't effect/change the original. That might curb some misuse.

Some AST do take place mid-development and are explicitly acknowledged by the creators as such, but I strongly agree the entries should be held off until after the product/update has properly released, to avoid shoehorns and misuse.

Edited by AlleyOop

^ Honestly it would help the trope a lot if we actually have those citations in the examples.

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

Although it helps, I don't think we should make explicit commentary a requirement either, as that would be a huge pain in the ass. And often they don't go with explicit comments and apologies, especially not from Japanese gaming companies who will often make it more implicit.

One example I can think of is Tifa Lockhart in the Final Fantasy VII Remake, who had a moderately-sized bust in what seemed like an invoked form of Big Bra to Fill for her initial reveal trailer, but after a firestorm of fan complaints it was made larger for the final product.

Another is The King of Fighters XIV which portrayed the traditionally brunet Kyo as black-haired in initial trailers, but a lot of fans complained about You Don't Look Like You until later trailers made him a brunet again. Again the company didn't explicitly confirm that it was done as AST, but considering he had black hair in the concept art, it was clearly a change they planned to commit to until the fan backlash got too overwhelming.

Edited by AlleyOop

"However, this is the real problem that I was trying to address; a lot of tropers (you know who you are if you've been wrestling with me over AST examples before the definition change) love to go on YMMV pages of impending works and spam AST like it was the second coming of Jesus just to create hype for themselves.

I'm with Ferot on this, but I'll take a more draconian approach; AST is not to be used until after the work's release (or the update in which the AST comes for some ongoing works), as to assess the effect of the AST in question."

...I've said this implicitly in the past, but I think I'm going to spell it out this time: the decision, when policy for troping unreleased works was being discussed, to allow prelease YMMV pages was the dumbest decision this site's made since Troper Tales was a thing. It's just So. Many. Constant problems.

As for explicit confirmation, though, I don't think it's necessary. Honestly the one area I'd really imagine Author's Saving Throw might use it is alleged examples that were actually preplanned, but that's off the scope of this particular discussion.

Edited by nrjxll

That isn't draconian, it's the normal rule from Speculative Troping. Nothing special about "it isn't an example until it is in the work".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Sorry to bump this, but I still don't know if we should have a TRS thread or a Cleanup thread for AST. This thread seems a bit indecisive on what I should do.

Edited by PlasmaPower Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

Making it Trivia would be too restrictive and the trope still relies so much on audience feedback that YMMV feels like a fitting place. I agree it needs a post-release-only rule - hell, I'd even go for a week after the work's release since it's quite similar to Win Back the Crowd which has that recency rule.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

I started the cleanup here.

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!