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I'm confused by this. Could you put an example of characters that are trans?
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Uh, no? This trope is about characters having their genders swapped across localizations. There are multiple reasons for this happening.
Edited by EarthboundFan
What do you mean ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I feel like your missing the point of the trope. The trope is about when a female character is changed to a male character when the work is localized due to various factors. It isn't some political statement or attempt to be transphobic.
As for Poison, the entry itself may or may not fit but the entry isn't saying the character isn't trans, its just saying the way the trans aspect was handled was slightly shifted.
Muramasa got.
The example says that she’s a girl in the English version, and a “male-to-female transsexual” in Japan. Apart from the not-great language there, the only way that would fit as an example of the trope is if you don’t consider trans women as women.
Yeah, I think changing trans to cis feels like a different trope. I'm not sure which it would be, but not this.
Yeah, the trope isn't transphobic, and those examples are probably just misuse.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
^ Exactly.
If we did, we would create 591 red-links (Assuming we don't use "She's a Man in Japan" as a redirect...).
Edited by EarthboundFan
I don't think trans characters being changed to cis is misuse under the current definition, but I agree it should probably be split into its own trope.
Keet cleanup
^ I think so, because that's not changing their gender, but their sex, if Alice is a cis girl in the first work and a trans girl in the adaptation, Alice is still a girl, nothing changed except that they added in the extra information.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
The trope description defines it as changing their sex, so if it's decided that what it really means is gender, the description needs rewording.
Edited by Twiddler
^ I'm fairly certain it does mean gender, because it goes onto talk about how it makes it more marketable to girls, or how the character might be too feminine to be convincingly male, and compare it to things like Hide Your Lesbians. It's clearly talking about changing a gender in such a way that it changes these things about a character to make the work more acceptable, which doesn't make any sense when referring to trans characters because that doesn't change the way the character is portrayed in the work or how marketable the work is, only what their biological sex is.
In other words, changing a character's sex is different than changing their gender, and when referring to trans characters it's a sticky subject. It's the difference between Alice being Bob in the new version of the show, or Alice having transitioned from being Bob in the backstory of the show; either way, they're still Alice.
Edited by WarJay77 Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
OP has yet to reiterate their claims.
I mean it sounds like we’re all broadly in agreement with them that examples of characters who changed from trans to cis depending on the version are misuse. And personally I agree that it’s transphobic to say that a character’s gender was changed by the localization from “transsexual” to female.
It's something but what that other thing is, I'm not so sure. Poison is MTF trans on both sides of the Pacific, but in the West she's had both top and bottom gender-conforming surgery, but in Japan she's a "newhalf" (slightly-derogatory name that means a trans woman who has only had the top surgery but not the bottom surgery). In this case what changed is the configuration of her genitalia, which will never be something they'll explicitly address onscreen for obvious reasons.
Edited by AlleyOop
This probably requires a Trope Talk discussion rather than ATT. The trope is about characters' sexes being changed during translation. Whether it should include changes from trans-gender to cis-gender I don't know.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
^ I'm still fairly positive the trope is actually meant to be about gender, not sex, as gender is the outward expression and sex is biology; and that's actually the issue here. If it's gender based, trans examples can't fit.
But, okay, yeah, we should do Trope Talk.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I tend to agree a a character being swapped from trans to cis or vice-versa is an entirely different trope. Especially since many of the entries here about such characters have highly questionable and potentially transphobic wording.
If a character is was explicitly changed from a cis crossdresser to trans or the other way around that would be this trope, but not a transwoman being changed to a cis woman like Poison.
Edited by CryptidProductions
TLP draft
now exists.
I should point out that most of the "transphobic wording" was fine when it was added. It's just that the euphemism treadmill is speeding up.
I really doubt that, I really do.
A lot of the working is really questionable and would've been weasel words territory even when it was added to the page.
I've noticed that some entries that include She's a Man in Japan and the main page for that trope include examples that are trans women which quite bluntly comes across as Transphobic and this wiki declaring that trans people aren't who they say they are which quite nasty (the character I noticed this with was Poison from Final Fight/Street Fighter where I edited some of that out).
Even if you want to argue that it's about the localisation changing them from trans to cis, that really feel like it feels like it fits that trope and more one of the tropes about the erasure of LGBTQ+ people in media.
Or if we have to put them there, change the name of the trope not to include the transphobic implications.
Edited by Gretnablue