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6th Nov, 2019 08:02:10 PM

What about those beings who merely express a desire to be a god without actually being one? I've seen tropers use such individuals for A God Am I examples despite said person not having a god complex.

7th Nov, 2019 07:23:53 AM

^I feel that's still misuse.

7th Nov, 2019 07:44:50 AM

A God Am I implies that the person believes they are a god, not wanting to ascend to godhood

7th Nov, 2019 08:28:26 AM

Yeah - You can't want what you already think you have, so "wants to become a god" and "thinks they are a god" are mutually exclusive.

7th Nov, 2019 03:36:21 PM

^^ They aren't mutually exclusive, not sure where you're getting that idea from.

For instance, a God-Emperor can believe that they are already a god, with their attempts to become a Physical God framed in their head as "unlocking their rightful powers" or something.

8th Nov, 2019 01:21:18 PM

^^The trope description actually makes it clear that it doesn't cover both.

This is from the page itself: "Note that this trope requires a self-proclamation of godhood, not just sheer cockiness and/or overconfidence. Possessing or gaining godlike powers by itself doesn’t count, nor is it a requirement to possess such powers to qualify for this trope."

^God-Emperor can overlap with it, but only if the character in question is the claiming to be a Physical God; if others claim that instead of said character, then there' no overlap in that case.

8th Nov, 2019 02:55:08 PM

^ Then let's go to Description Improvement Drive.

9th Nov, 2019 12:29:52 PM

I don't think that'll work in the end. We can't just change the trope's definition simply to make the misuse into actual examples.

9th Nov, 2019 03:15:36 PM

I agree that this is a case where the definition has become overly narrow — A God I Am Not came about as the inversion of this trope, and that deals with an actual god. I don't think there's any reason A God Am I needs to exclude cases of actually wanting to become a literal god. Characters with a god complex probably would pursue godhood if it were an option, it's just that in any halfway realistic setting that's never going to happen.

It wouldn't be hard to fix the description.

9th Nov, 2019 04:01:52 PM

I think the reason it did become narrow was because it could potentially become People Sit On Chairs otherwise.

Thus, I would like to try and set up a trope that actually is about characters wanting to ascend to godhood; people tend to shoehorn such characters into A God Am I despite the definition.

Can a mod give their two cents?

9th Nov, 2019 06:09:36 PM

^ wanting to become a god is itself a delusion of godhood. And people's reaction to it would be the same.

9th Nov, 2019 06:10:32 PM

But how could someone wanting to literally become a god be People Sit on Chairs? That seems like it needs some explaining. Even if it were, how would splitting out part of the trope help?

Edited by Unsung
9th Nov, 2019 08:55:10 PM

^^Please explain how wanting to be a god is itself a delusion of godhood.

The trope is defined as being a character who thinks and claims they're a god.

9th Nov, 2019 10:04:35 PM

^ They're both "thinking that they can be a god". Just slightly different in the details.

"Delusion of godhood" itself is interpretative enough.

10th Nov, 2019 05:55:55 AM

I don't think that's what it entails.

A God Am I says nothing about "thinking they can be a god"; they think they ARE a god. Simply wanting to be a god does automatically mean they haven't labeled themselves as one and thus lack the delusion.

I have asked for a mod's opinion, and this stalemate is why.

10th Nov, 2019 03:47:32 PM

^ the delusion lies in that "they can be a god if they try". And that delusion is also "delusion of godhood".

Again, if you're bugged with the description, it can be fixed.

10th Nov, 2019 04:03:06 PM

4tell, I've said this before and I'll say it again: We can't just change a description so that examples we want to fit can fit. That's a violation of the rules; we can only edit the description to better explain the trope, or with TRS approval and consensus.

I agree with TNG. A God Am I is about believing yourself to be a God. If you want to ascend, you aren't delusional at all- you would just like to be a God. (And, in works where someone wants to be a God there's usually a way of achieving that, so they aren't delusional for even thinking the could be a God.)

It's about delusions of Godhood. We can't just arbitrarily water down the description so that the trope is no longer about a God Complex.

Edited by WarJay77
10th Nov, 2019 05:52:17 PM

Believing you are a god, believing you can become a god, and others believing it too, a lot of this depends on defining god in a particular way, and that's often a sliding scale. A God-Emperor or Physical God isn't necessarily on the scale of one of the Powers That Be or God himself, but they can still be considered gods, and they're part of the current description for A God Am I for a reason — if you have the power of a god, and are worshipped like a god, who is to say you are not a god? It's academic, semantic, at that point. That seems to be the majority of the current trope, based on the description and examples, despite the current first sentence.

If anything, looking at it now, I'd say there's a better case for repairing the trope by splitting out the delusion of godhood / God Complex into its own page specifically for cases where the majority of people don't believe the character is a god, and making this more clearly about having the power/authority/worshippers to actually back/enforce their claim.

10th Nov, 2019 05:54:59 PM

^^^In most settings where gods exist, wanting to be a god isn't delusional, though it is next to impossible in most cases. I know Tropes Are Flexible, but there are limits to how flexible individual tropes are before they turn into entirely different tropes.

^God-Emperor was mentioned only once in the description, and God Complex is a redirect to the page. Maybe it should be renamed simply to God Complex and eliminate A God Am I altogether due to the rampant misuse?

That all said, this did essentially turn into a TRS discussion. Given the number of misused examples I've seen on the page itself and the various works pages, I believe a TRS thread and a new trope for the misuse "want to ascend" examples would be be prudent.

Edited by TheNerfGuy
10th Nov, 2019 06:15:14 PM

It's also only called a delusion once, just that first line (the line regarding Straw Nihilist seems to support the distinction that this is just about claiming you're a god, and it can be true or not) — most of the description doesn't focus on the person saying they're a god being clinically delusional, but rather on the declaration and belief itself. I think with any TRS here, it would be the most efficient to just edit/replace that first line.

I think the main trope here is actually just someone claiming they're a god, and that claim being subject to some dispute. I think that's clear, simple, and would require the least work to fix. Renaming it requires going through the whole site to change it, and it's one of the older tropes. Splitting out God Complex on its own, meanwhile, seems like it would only affect a relatively small number of the current examples.

Edited by Unsung
10th Nov, 2019 06:19:27 PM

Then you read parts that are under that, and it goes into detail about them proclaiming their godhood several times, complete with things that underline said delusion of godhood (grandiose speeches, considering themselves to have risen above the rest, etc).

The God-Emperor part doesn't really get that sort of detailing.

Edited by TheNerfGuy
10th Nov, 2019 06:32:49 PM

I'm not saying God-Emperor got a lot of detail, just that God-Emperor and Physical God were two cases that were mentioned where this trope could come into play. It doesn't always apply to them, but it can.

The grandiose speeches are definitely part of it, not saying they're not, but gaining power or achieving some grand goal are as well. It's not just the declaration, it's having done something that warrants it. That's why I'm suggesting if they haven't done anything, or are only deluded into thinking they have, that would make sense as its own trope.

Anyway. TRS.

Edited by Unsung
10th Nov, 2019 06:41:37 PM

Now here's the thing: is A God Am I about the proclamation, or the delusion? The latter is broader than the former. You're right that "(wanting to) become a god" doesn't have to be delusional in some cases, but what if they overlap?

So perhaps there are 3 tropes here:

  1. The general "delusions of godhood" ("God Complex")
  2. Proclamation of godhood (A God Am I)
  3. Becoming a god (Deity of Human Origin, God Job, Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence)

So "becoming a god" is already a thing here, but I don't know if we have "the complex about wanting to become a god".

10th Nov, 2019 06:58:49 PM

Nothing in the description really supports the third point you're making, and it doesn't support "wanting to become a god"; that last tidbit seems to be people reading the trope name -and ONLY the trope name- and making a false assumption.

Thus, when discussing the examples, we should completely ignore "wanting to become a god".

10th Nov, 2019 07:06:22 PM

It was your original point, I think is why it's coming up here. But there could also be a few cases of misuse that could be more appropriately sorted into one of those three.

Edited by Unsung
10th Nov, 2019 07:17:31 PM

Since God Complex redirects to A God Am I, both are pretty much interchangeable. Self-proclaiming oneself to be a god would automatically overlap with delusions of godhood, and the description never specified if the said self-proclamation is public or not; it just said it was required in general. Looking back over all of that, I now don't think God complex and A God Am I should be split into separate tropes.

The point I was making was that the "wanting to become a god" examples were misuse. Looking over it, it was the lack of the established criteria that prompted it.

10th Nov, 2019 07:40:15 PM

^ But here's the thing: delusions of godhood doesn't always have to be portrayed by "self proclaiming oneself to be a god". In a Venn diagram, A God Am I is inside God Complex, but the latter encompasses more things than just the former.

"Nothing in the description really supports the third point you're making, and it doesn't support "wanting to become a god"; that last tidbit seems to be people reading the trope name -and ONLY the trope name- and making a false assumption."

Who/what are you talking about?

10th Nov, 2019 07:43:43 PM

People shoehorning "wanting to become a god" as being an example of A God Am I despite not being covered in the description.

10th Nov, 2019 08:12:19 PM

^^^ That works for me. ^^ Honestly, I think the way this has all come full circle does show that they can be one trope, and it's just the description that needs repairing.

11th Nov, 2019 12:55:52 AM

^ that, or a more general "god complex" or "god delusion" trope could be made, and A God Am I would be its subtrope.

11th Nov, 2019 05:20:24 AM

I remain firmly against making "wanting to become a god" a part of the trope; that's not what the trope is about, it's about the god complex and delusions of godhood. Do not get me wrong.

11th Nov, 2019 07:55:20 AM

...But you just finished saying you didn't want to split it anymore. What's the problem now?

11th Nov, 2019 11:18:05 AM

Huh? Nerf was always opposed to that bit being part of the trope. That's what this entire conversation was about. Since he never considered it part of the trope to begin with, how could it be "split" from the trope? He's just reiterating the argument he's been making the entire time.

Anyway ya'll, this is getting too long for Trope Finder. Trope Talk time?

Edited by WarJay77
11th Nov, 2019 11:30:59 AM

If he agrees the delusion/disputed declaration are interchangeable, which was the original thing other people were saying, and that Deity of Human Origin, God Job, and Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence cover other cases of people genuinely wanting to become/succeeding in becoming a god, what is there left to talk about on the Trope Talk? That's what I'm asking.

Edit: Not opposed to taking this to TT if there's more to say, just not sure how to start that thread.

Edited by Unsung
11th Nov, 2019 12:09:07 PM

To be fair, Deity of Human Origin, God Job, and Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence would be after the person becomes a god; the examples about the person wanting to become a god would naturally come before such tropes come into play. That's why I'm suggesting a new trope specifically for characters who want to become gods.

Anyway, I'm gonna try to open a TRS thread on A God Am I, and I will cite this thread as prior discussion.

11th Nov, 2019 03:50:42 PM

I think we should bring this to Trope Talk first.

11th Nov, 2019 06:51:34 PM

I've already made the thread. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1573503929048411100&page=1#1

As of this writing, the mods have not yet approved it.

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