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29th Aug, 2019 09:25:16 PM

the entry was originally added in 2017 by blackravenclaw. i sent them a message inviting them to take part in the discussion, but they seem to be an intermittent user; their last edit was in April of this year, so i don't know whether they'll show up or not.

29th Aug, 2019 09:28:06 PM

If the discussion doesn't end up going anywhere, you can head to the Removing complaining, bashing and other negativity from the wiki forum thread for opinions.

29th Aug, 2019 09:29:56 PM

^ill probably do that anyway just to get some more eyes on it. appreciate the link!

29th Aug, 2019 09:46:54 PM

that's one solution, but if it can be reworded more neutrally (or if people come to the conclusion im being oversensitive), it can be added back as its own bullet, with the cruft removed. im reluctant to just cut other people's sugar wiki entries unilaterally.

29th Aug, 2019 09:50:05 PM

Go ahead and do it. Although it should be add to the two bullets entry above it, not separated one like it was.

29th Aug, 2019 09:52:37 PM

the thing is, im not sure if it can be reworded more neutrally. that's one of the reasons i brought it here. no matter how i look at it, all i see is "ha ha, you don't look like a girl". but im trans, so it's possible im just too close to the issue.

29th Aug, 2019 10:11:35 PM

The quotes around woman ("vai") does make this come off as transphobic, but it at least doesn't look intentionally so (in the vein of dehumanization and bigotry). Things like this and Unsettling Gender Reveal being Played for Laughs is...awkward imo. There is a lot of casual transphobia in society and it's still something that happens in media unfortunately, so I see why we trope it, but on a funny page it does come off as kinda bad taste.

I don't necessarily think you're being overly-sensitive, but I'm not sure if there's grounds for outright removal since humor is subjective and this isn't blatantly bigoted in its wording... Maybe it can be rewritten to get rid of the scare quotes? Otherwise, is there a case to be made that this is in such bad taste that it should be axed? I'm not sure.

Edited by ILikeRobots
30th Aug, 2019 08:26:57 AM

the issue i have with that is the specific phrasing "the 'Vai' is clearly actually a voe". this is a clear statement that if you look like a man, you are a man, which is really nasty for non-passing trans people - it's saying that their appearance is more important than any other factor in determining their gender. it's problematic even for gender non-conforming cis people like Butch Lesbians.

30th Aug, 2019 08:29:53 AM

If all quotes around “Vai” are removed and the capital V is lowercased, would that get rid of any perceived transphobia? If the sentence looked like “But the vai is actually a voe,” rather than “but the ‘Vai’ is actually a voe,” and so on and so forth for all other instances in the entry, would that be less potentially transphobic? The idea is that by removing the quote marks and lowercasing the V, it makes the entry’s attitude less “tee hee, crossdressing,” and more “oh yeah, this is just a thing that happens in the game.” The intent is to normalize it. Would this work?

30th Aug, 2019 08:38:59 AM

the character's gender identity isn't clear, but i dont like the phrasing "is actually", for the reasons i talked about above. using appearance as the end-all truth of actuality isn't viable in a lot of cases, and trans people are one of them, because of the effort it takes for us to make our appearance match our gender.

30th Aug, 2019 09:21:55 AM

Disclaimer: I have not played the game and am not familiar with the scene from the example.

That said, based on the quoted example I think you are looking too hard and seeing things that are not there. Quotes around a word can be used to show that something is not as it seems, for example:

  • The "victim" turns out to be the perpetrator – they were trying to avoid suspicion by pretending to be a victim
  • The "goblins" turn out to be just a bunch of kids that painted themselves green as part of a prank
  • The "monsters" are obviously just a bunch of guys in rubber suits, and they don't even attempt to act scary or monstrous
  • For starters, the "Vai" is clearly just a doll controlled by someone else, but Link pretends not to notice for the sake of the mission. [...] And then the wind blows off the "Vai"'s mask, revealing the doll's face, resulting in a Face Palm from Link.

For the record, that last one is just an example I made up based on the example from the OP to illustrate what I mean.

If the quotes bother you that much, just rewrite the example to not use them. This particular example seems like it will work better without them, anyway.

30th Aug, 2019 10:31:38 AM

to be honest, if we replace "is actually a voe" with "was clearly assigned male at birth", and got rid of the scare quotes, i think i could live with it. i still don't like it, but not liking something doesn't give me the right to unilaterally erase it. thoughts?

30th Aug, 2019 12:56:05 PM

I think this is looking too hard into it. The character is not presented as trans — they're presented as a man preteneding to be a woman, to get into a town that only allows women in. They're not "scare quotes," they're just there to show that the person is not what they seem.

This seems more like projecting onto the scene things that aren't there.

30th Aug, 2019 01:12:30 PM

Yeah, I think it could be written to make it clear this character is very blatanty crossdressing, because I can see how the language is a bit uncool, but I also don't think it's inherently transphobic to say a cleary male character is pretending to be female if that...well...is what's happening.

Edited by WarJay77
30th Aug, 2019 01:55:23 PM

^^ no, it's not clear at all that's what's happening. the character's gender identity is never touched on. the game plays them for laughs without asking the question, and that's part of the problem. they're not trying to get into Gerudo Town, they're just hanging out in women's clothes. they could just be a crossdresser, but they could also be trans.

30th Aug, 2019 02:15:34 PM

I'm good with this suggestion: "we replace "is actually a voe" with "was clearly assigned male at birth", and got rid of the scare quotes".

Like others have said, funny is in the eye of the beholder, but this does not have to be written as it is.

30th Aug, 2019 02:22:11 PM

rewritten entry:

  • The sequence where Link acquires the Gerudo clothes to sneak into town is hilarious. For starters, the vai was clearly assigned male at birth, but Link goes along with it for the sake of the mission. When Link is given the rather revealing outfit, he at first looks embarrassed, but after the vai gives him a few compliments, he looks bashful but pleased... And then the wind blows off the vai's mask, revealing their true face, resulting in a Face Palm from Link.

looks good? any objections?

30th Aug, 2019 02:53:50 PM

Explain how the vai even relates to the sequence? Are they giving Link the clothes?

30th Aug, 2019 03:02:58 PM

Why not just say "the vai appears to be male" or something similar? Since we don't know anything about them (which seems to be the source of the issue) we can't really be sure what - if anything - they were assigned at birth. So just mention the way they look in-game and leave it at that - it's unlikely that the game's creators will tell us if the NPC in question is a crossdressing man, or a trans person, or a very masculine-looking woman, or something else entirely.

30th Aug, 2019 04:03:26 PM

^^ Link has to cross-dress to get into Gerudo Town, because they only let women in. the vai is giving him the clothes, but doesn't seem to be trying to get into Gerudo Town themself.

^ i think i do like that better.

second revision:

  • The sequence where Link acquires the Gerudo clothes to sneak into town is hilarious. For starters, the vai who gives him the clothes appears to be male, but Link goes along with it for the sake of the mission. When Link is given the rather revealing outfit, he at first looks embarrassed, but after the vai gives him a few compliments, he looks bashful but pleased... And then the wind blows off the vai's mask, revealing their true face, resulting in a Face Palm from Link.

Edited by razorrozar7
30th Aug, 2019 04:44:58 PM

Yeah, the question of the scene being funny does seem mostly down to your interpretation and political views. The character, Vilia, is pegged as a man who knows how to sneak into town by other characters when you ask around, but will not respond to you if you gender them as male in the dialog options. When you acknowledge them as female, you can get somewhere. Yet their face (what we can see) is meant to be an immediate signifier to contrast the clothing, saying "they couldn't hope to pass as female if their face was uncovered", and if the white lower half is meant to be a beard, it suggests that Vilia's not really trying very hard to pass, to a comical degree. It's a game from Japan, which has some ignorant views on such matters, though some interactions do respect the Vilia's female presentation, and Link is never shamed for wearing vai clothing. It's an awkward support-takedown combo, so the entry, if kept, should probably be more objective/neutral about Vilia's situation.

Edited by 8BrickMario
30th Aug, 2019 06:53:05 PM

^^ That looks good to me.

31st Aug, 2019 05:06:32 AM

From a Doylist perspective, I think the fact that the scene is played for laughs in the first place is itself an indication that Vilia is just cross-dressing. I can't imagine the alternative being a very good source of humor, after all.

31st Aug, 2019 05:50:45 AM

^i wish i could agree with you, but Japan has a very, very bad track record when it comes to LGBTQ+ people in general and trans people in particular.

8th Oct, 2019 03:00:33 PM

Hi everyone, I'm the troper in question. I know this case has been closed, but just wanted to give my input and say I agree with the removal of my entry. My intention was not to be transphobic, but upon reflection I think that I unintentionally crossed a line. I'm sorry if I offended anyone and I'll try to be more considerate in the future!

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