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9th Jun, 2019 07:59:13 AM

As was pointed out the previous time this came up, the How to Alphabetize Things page doesn't specify how TV Tropes alphabetizes the names of people. I think it should be updated to address that.

I've seen indexes sort by surname before, and that ATT query has a link to a post by Fast Eddie saying to alphabetize that way (courtesy link to the post in question), so it does appear to be the standard here.

Edited by GastonRabbit
9th Jun, 2019 09:28:46 AM

Alphabetizing by surname is the default in all western countries except Iceland (where people don't have surnames, but patronymics), so I can't see why we should do it differently.

9th Jun, 2019 01:28:56 PM

I that Surname was only for Japanese creators?

9th Jun, 2019 06:27:23 PM

^ No idea why you'd think that. Name order, perhaps?

9th Jun, 2019 11:03:59 PM

Probably, yeah. That's still by surname, though.

9th Jun, 2019 11:39:04 PM

Japanese creators still get their pages made with Western order names.

Fighteer MOD
10th Jun, 2019 07:41:00 AM

Confirming: alphabetization of proper names is always by surname. This is a convention everywhere and is not something we need to specifically state.

10th Jun, 2019 09:18:04 AM

In that case, can we get a revert for the page in question?

10th Jun, 2019 04:34:08 PM

The Voice Actors page is also organized by first name at the moment, and it doesn't seem to have been a recent change.

Fighteer MOD
11th Jun, 2019 07:33:57 AM

I recommend changing that as well.

Note that the wiki software that auto-indexes namespaces like Laconic doesn't understand people's names, so will sort alphabetically by title, but that doesn't mean we should do the same when we manually alphabetize lists.

11th Jun, 2019 08:42:18 AM

Regarding Japanese creators, most do seem to have their name listed as "Givenname Surname" but there are a few in the native "Surname Givenname" order (for example, Tanaka Yutaka, where "Tanaka" is the surname). I noticed this when I was alphabetizing Mangaka and trying to make sure that page was ordered by surname.

Edited by DEIDATVM
11th Jun, 2019 08:52:28 AM

I think it's a "who got there first" situation, unless the creator specifically states a preference. A lot of Japanese creators do go in "western" order when having their work translated, giving interviews, etc., for example.

11th Jun, 2019 12:13:03 PM

^^ In that case, leave a comment after their index entry, saying something like this:

* Creator/TanakaYutaka %% Eastern name order

Fighteer MOD
11th Jun, 2019 01:02:41 PM

Point of order: we are an English language wiki, so we use English conventions when alphabetizing. This includes listing Japanese names in Western order, then alphabetizing by surname.

11th Jun, 2019 01:24:57 PM

^ I'd like further clarification. Under what circumstances, if any, would a real-life person be listed in Eastern name order?

(Without clarification, people will absolutely take this as an excuse to move certain Useful Notes and Creator pages...)

Fighteer MOD
11th Jun, 2019 01:44:43 PM

The only case I can think of is if the translation project creates a Japanese language version of an article. In such an article, they could write and alphabetize names in Eastern fashion if they wanted to. This would include indexes, if appropriate. In the English wiki, we should be consistent.

11th Jun, 2019 01:54:34 PM

^ I don't think you've realized the can of worms you just opened.

Don't be surprised if the wiki falls victim to someone "bothering by the book" on this matter. I asked for clarification specifically to try and cut off the trolls before they attempt that.

Edited by bwburke94
Fighteer MOD
11th Jun, 2019 02:08:12 PM

There's no "can of worms". The translation project has been around for years. There must be an English version of any article that receives a translation, so there's no issue that I can see. If more people want to translate our articles into other languages, that's a bonus.

11th Jun, 2019 02:27:31 PM

There must be an English version of any article that receives a translation
Really? I hadn't seen that rule anywhere. I had assumed that if a Hungarian troper wanted to make a Hungarian page for a Hungarian work, they'd be allowed to do just that, without first making an English page for the work.

11th Jun, 2019 02:28:31 PM

There must be an English version of any article that receives a translation
Really? I hadn't seen that rule anywhere. I had assumed that if a Hungarian troper wanted to make a Hungarian page for a Hungarian work, they'd be allowed to do just that, without first making an English page for the work.

Fighteer MOD
11th Jun, 2019 02:40:28 PM

Absolutely not. There must be a primary namespace article for any work or trope, in English.

11th Jun, 2019 02:55:29 PM

Cases like these make me wonder if we need an easily accessible list of all the wiki's policies.

We've seen three policies "revealed" in this one discussion, two of which have major implications for the wiki going forward. And if any troper hasn't seen this page, they'll have no idea the policies exist.

11th Jun, 2019 03:47:03 PM

Defaulting to the creator's preferred order or the name they're first/most published under in English seems like it would amount to a consistent policy, wouldn't it? As long as they're still alphabetized by surname.

11th Jun, 2019 03:58:03 PM

^ We're not only talking about creators here, but I think you made your point well.

12th Jun, 2019 09:59:37 AM

So should something be put on How to Alphabetize Things regarding creator names? Something like:

  1. Creators should be ordered by surname. This one is for indexes listing creators. While mononyms and pseudonyms without a surname may be ordered by their first initial, any name listed with a surname should be alphabetized by that surname.

Fighteer MOD
12th Jun, 2019 11:29:39 AM

I didn't think this was something that needed stating. We're an English wiki, English alphabetization of names is by surname, Q.E.D. Why anyone would think it's not that way is the more interesting question.

The only "policy" statements here are that Eastern creators should use Western name order on English articles and that there must always be an English version of any article before a translated version can be made. The first is just common sense for consistency and I'm not aware of any articles violating the latter rule, so neither strikes me as a big issue.

I went ahead and added a rule to How to Alphabetize Things to clear up any potential confusion.

Edited by Fighteer
12th Jun, 2019 04:09:53 PM

> The only "policy" statements here are that Eastern creators should use Western name order on English articles

What about Eastern non-creators? Currently, our article for a certain ex-Chinese leader is at Mao Zedong (Eastern) - should it be moved to Zedong Mao (Western)?

12th Jun, 2019 04:28:21 PM

I think it's gonna be a lot simpler to just use the the first/most common/preferred order and not go too crazy trying to enforce this. Similar to American vs. UK spelling, it's not really hurting anything.

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