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As was pointed out the previous time this came up
, the How to Alphabetize Things page doesn't specify how TV Tropes alphabetizes the names of people. I think it should be updated to address that.
I've seen indexes sort by surname before, and that ATT query has a link to a post by Fast Eddie saying to alphabetize that way (courtesy link to the post in question), so it does appear to be the standard here.
Alphabetizing by surname is the default in all western countries except Iceland (where people don't have surnames, but patronymics), so I can't see why we should do it differently.
I that Surname was only for Japanese creators?
^ No idea why you'd think that. Name order, perhaps?
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Probably, yeah. That's still by surname, though.
Japanese creators still get their pages made with Western order names.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Confirming: alphabetization of proper names is always by surname. This is a convention everywhere and is not something we need to specifically state.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
In that case, can we get a revert for the page in question?
The Voice Actors page is also organized by first name at the moment, and it doesn't seem to have been a recent change.
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
I recommend changing that as well.
Note that the wiki software that auto-indexes namespaces like Laconic doesn't understand people's names, so will sort alphabetically by title, but that doesn't mean we should do the same when we manually alphabetize lists.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Regarding Japanese creators, most do seem to have their name listed as "Givenname Surname" but there are a few in the native "Surname Givenname" order (for example, Tanaka Yutaka, where "Tanaka" is the surname). I noticed this when I was alphabetizing Mangaka and trying to make sure that page was ordered by surname.
Edited by DEIDATVM
I think it's a "who got there first" situation, unless the creator specifically states a preference. A lot of Japanese creators do go in "western" order when having their work translated, giving interviews, etc., for example.
^^ In that case, leave a comment after their index entry, saying something like this:
Point of order: we are an English language wiki, so we use English conventions when alphabetizing. This includes listing Japanese names in Western order, then alphabetizing by surname.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
^ I'd like further clarification. Under what circumstances, if any, would a real-life person be listed in Eastern name order?
(Without clarification, people will absolutely take this as an excuse to move certain Useful Notes and Creator pages...)
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
The only case I can think of is if the translation project creates a Japanese language version of an article. In such an article, they could write and alphabetize names in Eastern fashion if they wanted to. This would include indexes, if appropriate. In the English wiki, we should be consistent.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
^ I don't think you've realized the can of worms you just opened.
Don't be surprised if the wiki falls victim to someone "bothering by the book" on this matter. I asked for clarification specifically to try and cut off the trolls before they attempt that.
Edited by bwburke94 I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
There's no "can of worms". The translation project has been around for years. There must be an English version of any article that receives a translation, so there's no issue that I can see. If more people want to translate our articles into other languages, that's a bonus.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Absolutely not. There must be a primary namespace article for any work or trope, in English.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Cases like these make me wonder if we need an easily accessible list of all the wiki's policies.
We've seen three policies "revealed" in this one discussion, two of which have major implications for the wiki going forward. And if any troper hasn't seen this page, they'll have no idea the policies exist.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
Defaulting to the creator's preferred order or the name they're first/most published under in English seems like it would amount to a consistent policy, wouldn't it? As long as they're still alphabetized by surname.
^ We're not only talking about creators here, but I think you made your point well.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
So should something be put on How to Alphabetize Things regarding creator names? Something like:
- Creators should be ordered by surname. This one is for indexes listing creators. While mononyms and pseudonyms without a surname may be ordered by their first initial, any name listed with a surname should be alphabetized by that surname.
I didn't think this was something that needed stating. We're an English wiki, English alphabetization of names is by surname, Q.E.D. Why anyone would think it's not that way is the more interesting question.
The only "policy" statements here are that Eastern creators should use Western name order on English articles and that there must always be an English version of any article before a translated version can be made. The first is just common sense for consistency and I'm not aware of any articles violating the latter rule, so neither strikes me as a big issue.
I went ahead and added a rule to How to Alphabetize Things to clear up any potential confusion.
Edited by Fighteer "It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
> The only "policy" statements here are that Eastern creators should use Western name order on English articles
What about Eastern non-creators? Currently, our article for a certain ex-Chinese leader is at Mao Zedong (Eastern) - should it be moved to Zedong Mao (Western)?
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
I think it's gonna be a lot simpler to just use the the first/most common/preferred order and not go too crazy trying to enforce this. Similar to American vs. UK spelling, it's not really hurting anything.
acuddle organized Animators, which I'd previously alphabetized by surname, so that it's now organized by given name. I was under the impression that surname is what should be used for organization of creators pages, am I wrong in that?