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MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
5th Apr, 2019 09:46:34 AM

That's covered by Honor Among Thieves.

It's neither unrealistic, or hypocritical. Everyone values loyalty, including criminals. In real life, organized crime groups such as the Italian and Russian Mafia, and the Yakuza all live by their own codes of honor and expect those in their ranks to abide by them. In their view, it's what distinguishes them from the common rabble who are unorganized and have no honor at all.

It's even more the case in fiction, which often romanticizes such criminals (see: the Lovable Rogue, Gentleman Thief, and Classy Cat-Burglar) who are often portrayed as being chivalrous in nature.

Edited by MiinU I wouldn't mind failure so much, if I didn't fail so much.
Mapafius Since: Feb, 2019
5th Apr, 2019 10:40:37 AM

Well it is in the way it is portrated in fiction. Yes I see that even i reality they value loyalty, everyone does because someones loyalty is always for your good. But the way it is portraited in fiction it really sounds hypocritical and unrealistic. Did you ever take part in some crime organization? I bet the morality is totaly different than in fiction and especially those monologues. The way it is portraited in fiction it just is hypocritic. The boss wants to project his power but pretends it to be some morality issue. Sure some hypocrisy is realistic but fiction takes this too far and let boss play this even when there is noone other looking for example just because of viewer for him to get this feel.

If you are some outcast, for example racial minority gang or gang made of poor people that goes against rich oligarchs, than those gangster can have some sense of brotherhood and not hurt one another but with clasical gang where everybody is for their own good this issue of morality and loyalty is simply hypocritic. It is in your best interest to demand loyalty from other members of gang, thats for sure, but you cant take it as a moral issue really blaming those who betray you, unless you are hypocrite. Gangster can feel it that way, but really, do you really think gangster is justified in being in any way surprised by immoral behavior of other gangster? The main rule of morality is to treat others in same importance as yourself, do not take someones need as more important than others and therefor not to harm others for your good unless you would sacrifice your good for others in same situation. Once you are member of society who delibertly abolish this rule there seem no reason to wonder when it turns against you. The difference is when you think you are justified in your villnious actions like for example thinking yourself and your gang as someone oppresed and therefor fair to harm outsiders. It may not be moral really, but gangster who believes it may be justified in still expecting moral behavior inside the crime organization.

WarJay77 (Troper Knight)
5th Apr, 2019 11:09:42 AM

Soooo...are you just looking for the trope to complain about it being hypocritical for members of real-life gangs?

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MiinU Since: Jun, 2011
5th Apr, 2019 11:21:40 AM

"Did you ever take part in some crime organization?"

No.

As for the rest, it depends on the writer, the character, and how the story portrays them. Robinhood and his men are one of literature's best examples of honor among thieves. It's where the "steal from the rich and give to the poor" mantra comes from.

Lupin III and his gang are a modern example and abide by their own code of chivalry, despite being thieves. And he's so good at it, that he's become a cultural icon among manga and anime fans, because he's infectiously likable as a character. He's loyal to his crew, mainly steals from those who can afford it (or have it coming), doesn't kill, and has even helped Interpol collar worse criminals than himself. It doesn't get him off the hook and he accepts that, because he's honest about what he does.

For anti-villainous characters like Lupin, expecting loyalty isn't hypocritical because they give it in return. Richard Wong (from Patlabor) is similar in nature.

It isn't hypocritical unless you're referring to criminals and mob bosses who demand loyalty, yet don't live up to it themselves.

Edited by MiinU I wouldn't mind failure so much, if I didn't fail so much.
Mapafius Since: Feb, 2019
5th Apr, 2019 12:15:46 PM

War Jay 77 No, I asked to know if there is such a trope and I see that honor among thief can be sufficient trope so my searching is done. Although I find this type of monologue classic enough to be considered as its own trope, I do not regard it as so important.

Miin U Robin Hood surely is example off honorable criminal but Robin Hood and such criminals are very specific example and I mentioned this possibility in my comment. Mainly it is that Robin Hood consider his own actions as good and is portrated as hero so it is not hypocritical for him to demand some morality inside gang. If crime boss sees actions of gang as legitimate or justified in circumstances like street gang of poor thiefs who steal for living and find themself in shadow of gready corrupt politicians or nobelty, I can understand that those gangs have sense of morality and brotherhood but i am speaking about crime organizations (mafia) which commit crimes without some ethical code or without outside enemy, who are not social outcasts or not so much. You can often hear crime boss have to contrasting monologues in movie. In one he describes himself and his gang as wolfes and normal people as stupid sheeps, braging about how they can take what ever they want, sometimes celebrating brutal crimes and frauds yet in different scene they give those monologues about loyalty and so on. As I said i could partly understand if he had such in front of other members on organization in order to justify his decisions and imposing rules while giving image of morality but in fact imposing control (it is like propaganda made to hold power) but i dont understand if crime boss give this monologue in scene talking only with the traitor, it would make sense only if he trully believed in his own words but then he is blind hypocrite with twisted belief. It would be way more sincere to say:"You go against me so it is in my best interest to get rid of you" instead of long monologue about loyalty. And yes, most of times, when it comes to movies about crime bosses I hardly find them as following their own rules when it comes to loyalty. They always make big statements about how much the organisation gave to member as some sort of commitment tho.

Edited by Mapafius
4tell0life4 Since: Mar, 2018
5th Apr, 2019 03:59:01 PM

See Moral Myopia for when the villain/criminal's virtues clash heavily with their vice/misdeeds.

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