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Great ideas, added to the list. We probably need a thread to decide what those pop ups should say though.
I’m going to add that Welcome PM message you all made right after I’m done with the tracking task along with a few minor changes related to tutorials like this. Anything we can add to help new users adjust to proper editing and page making will no doubt be useful.
Edited by kory Now monitoring Wishlist and Bugs
I'm not a UI designer, but I would be very cautious about putting pop-ups while browsing, if they're the kind that cover up content an like Annoying Pop-Up Ad. IMO they should be noticeable, but ignoreable without requiring more user inputs, like a closable banner.
- Registration: I get this one, mainly because registering already requires you to go through a special page or pop-up (I forgot which).
- Editing: There's an "Edit Tip" box whenever you're editing. I think it would be useful to give a special message for new editors, along with a "Editing tutorial" button. And it's a massive oversight not to include a Show Markup Help option on the wiki, while the forums have it.
- Making a new Media page: I think a better way would be to use situational Edit Tips, as well as give a warning if the page is shorter than expected. Image uploading is optional (How to Create a Work Page), so this should probably be provided as a tip at most.
- Forum: There's an "About the TV Tropes Forum" banner at the bottom, of the main index, but it could be made more prominent. There's also empty space in the top right by the "Forums" header, and on the action bar, that could be used to link to TV Tropes Forum.
- TLP: There's a text on top of the TLP that's supposed to already do that.
^ The TLP's text is pretty outdated and very low on important details though, but yeah a pop-up would be difficult since there's so much that goes into the TLP, the TLP Guidelines are pretty large.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
That's why I've said one-time. Once they are closed they'll never bother users again. And I'd argue they are supposed to cover content because new users who don't read them can't be trusted.
Edited by Amonimus TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
^ First impressions are very important, and editing a wiki should be simple without distractions. My instinct is that the site should be designed so that info is always beneficial, available through buttons or on-screen text. If it's a pop-up, it interferes with using the site.
A one-time pop-up also has a disadvantage of not being available for those past the introduction stage, who may be looking for a quick link to wiki instructions.
Edited by N1KF
The one-time pop ups are a good idea for newer users because there’s a huge problem with new users not knowing how to do things and then that causes problems for current users. A one-time pop up may be slightly annoying but it’s absolutely necessary here because T Vtropes is not an easy site to use or get into. You need a lot of hand-holding.
Beyond that we can also add extras to help guide any current users.
Edited by kory Now monitoring Wishlist and Bugs
Hmmmmm, I wonder if instead of a pop-up it could be an extension of the herald system where it sends an automatic PM to someone joining a new part of the site for the first time. Less intrusive and doesn't go away unless you choose to delete it.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I like the herald concept, but I'd want the PM be sent under someone's name so that questions can be answered.
Not fond of popups or tutorials; my sense is that they are more likely to scare/annoy people when they give the impression that we have a bureaucracy.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
But... we are actually very bureaucratic? And a lot of problems come from users who haven't read rules at all, can't even format wikitext, or ask how to even add pages or links.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Ya that’s true. The pms for first time editors, TLP users etc will need to come from a specific person that can answer questions about them. Do they have to be mods? We should make a thread about this since we need to know 1. What the pms will say exactly, just like the welcome pm
that I’ll be sending too and 2. Who the pms will be coming from.
Normal heralds are don't need to be mods (I'm the herald for the Long Term Perpetual forum), so I don't know if these ones would need to be, as long as they're trustworthy and active users.
Edited by WarJay77 Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sure, coming up with specific messages can take a lot of effort.
I believe there already was a proposal somewhere to make a no-specific-user account (we already have at least system, TheAdvertisementServer and HastilyMadeSockPuppet) that acts on behalf of the site to send a Welcome to TV Tropes link and teach users where PM inbox is located.
Edited by Amonimus TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Since we already have a constructed welcome PM we mostly need the 2 messages for new users accessing the TLP and Editing a page and the 2 people that those pms will be coming from.
As far as who the general welcome PM is coming from, i'll figure out a way to make that from-the-system so no single person gets flooded with pms from new users.
Edited by kory Now monitoring Wishlist and Bugs
Well, the problem is that there has to be someone at the end of the incoming reply PM otherwise they'll go unanswered.
Yes, we are bureaucratic but we don't want to advertise it. People don't like bureaucracy and they tend to skip over instructions especially if they are long or there is a lot of them. You can't make them drink.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Well the general welcome PM doesn’t need anyone on the other end. We get ~1200 new users a month and will hopefully increase that number, no one will want to receive all those pms. The welcome pm itself contains enough links to help the user out. I can just add an exception that if anyone responds to the general welcome PM it will kick back an error saying it’s from the system and to not respond.
Edited by kory Now monitoring Wishlist and Bugs
Yeah, we can't expect anyone to want their inbox filled with welcome PM and replies on top of the regular P Ms they already receive. It will be overwhelming and there's no way people will get their questions answered. It shouldn't be hard for people to find the proper avenues for any questions they might have.
Adding an error that warns people when they attempt to respond to the welcome PM sounds fine to me.
Edited by MacronNotes Macron's notes
I am deeply sceptical that it's "not hard" for people to find the proper avenues, there is no reason to believe that folks know the website structure beforehand. Rather I'd put links to Ask The Tropers and the newby thread in the error message.
The links to Ask The Tropers (linked twice) and other discussion venues are already in the message draft which was why it said it wasn't hard. The message itself isn't long so I don't see how those links could be missed. I don't see why someone would respond to the message and not read it or not see the ATT link.
I guess the link to ATT can be put into the error message if that needed.
Edited by MacronNotes Macron's notes
I think you're putting too much faith in the intelligence of random users and redundancies are probably needed. I can see users getting the PM, barley skimming over it, and then try to reply asking questions that are answered within the welcome pm itself.
Edited by kory Now monitoring Wishlist and Bugs
Yeah, I do send a message out to banned users that explicitly says how long bans last and yet I keep getting responses "when will my ban be lifted?". And at least back in Eddie days, we sometimes had to tell tropers that they need to go to the last page of a thread to post.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
For new users, to be sent a one-time pm:
- When first registered, requesting to read Welcome to TV Tropes and Administrivia as well as some info on site's navigation.
- When opening the edit window for the first time, to show a briefing from Text-Formatting Rules, How to Write an Example, and some layout explanation.
- Also, if making a new page in Media namespace, ask to make sure the page has 3+ tropes and a description, as well as image uploading guide.
- When opening the forum page for the first time, to show a briefing from TV Tropes Forum
- When opening the TLP for the first time, to tell about it's purpose and proceedings.
Edited by kory