The Touhou Character Alternate Interpretation Compendium

5000 posts! Woo~! Congratulations to the thread and Hylarn for the 5000th post! And congratulations to myself for the 5000th reply.

I sure as heck ain't complaining about giving Marisa sort of a mother figure, if biological or not, if it produces pictures like this one. There's all sorts of potential in giving the little girl Mari some sort of mentor spirit she just found by accident one day and then latched on to... or something like that!

I'm not sure if I have the time anytime soon to read one of those doujins and comment on that, but we'll see.

Unfortunately, ol' Mima isn't exactly attracting discussion like a major magnetic force of some sort... So will this Sunday see the dawn of this thread's, or this round's, final bout?!

[dramatic lightning strike]

Oi.

The way I see it, Mima was a ghost evil spirit languishing in Hell. Reimu breaks in and goes all Breakout on everything, and Mima escapes in the confusion. She then decides to attack Reimu for revenge for attacking her, and because she wants the power of Hakurei for herself.

Mima probably had some hatred left over from something in her past. Reimu beating her helped her get over that lingering hate, and so she ended up as a hanger-on at the Hakurei Shrine... the same as many other Girls would do in the future.

Unfortunately, ol' Mima isn't exactly attracting discussion like a major magnetic force of some sort... So will this Sunday see the dawn of this thread's, or this round's, final bout?!

[dramatic lightning strike]

I look forward to it! Being the irredeemable nerd that I am, I did (among other things) a nontrivial amount of math so that I could be as specific as possible in complaining about just how unpopular some of my favorite characters are. I even came up with a new unit of measurement for that purpose!

edited 13th Nov '10 2:05:46 PM by SuperDimensionman

It just occurred to me that having a spirit like Mima haunting it may explain why the Hakurei Shrine has so few human visitors.

Further research: her PoDD profile describes her as an "Evil spirit that resents the Hakurei Shrine, or used to." Not Reimu specifically, so it sounds less like she's still sore over HRtP and more like she has a history with the shrine as an establishment. Maybe one of Reimu's predecessors sent her to Makai? Or was Mima an aspiring shrine maiden that was turned down and took up magic as a means for revenge?

I bet Rinnosuke knows.

The profile also says "she's been an evil spirit for quite a long time, her evilness has completely fallen off from her." Mystic Square further elaborates that she "can't remember things for such a long time, [and] appears to be enjoying her current days." So Mima's grudge with the Hakurei Shrine has to be recent for her to still remember it, but she's existed as an evil spirit for much longer than that.

This would also seem to apply that evilness is something you grow out of. Or maybe in Mima's case she just forgot about what she was supposed to be vengeful about, and decided to amuse herself by being a nuisance at Reimu's place.

Lunar cycles effect her power, so in PoDD's ending she wishes for an eternal full moon, and Yumemi grants it by putting the moon in geosynchronous orbit.

Very interesting. A ghostly Mima having a connection to the moon doesn't make much sense (unless she's the ghost of a human with moon-related powers), so this would suggest that Mima's a spiritual being of some sort rather than undead. Maybe she's just a youkai? Or maybe she's deliberately given herself this potential vulnerability as part of her whole "astronomy" theme.

So, in conclusion... I lack a clear idea of Mima's character. She certainly has a lot of Marisa in her in terms of being an Anti-Hero with a keen sense of showmanship, but she lacks her apprentice/daughter's easy-going nature and roguish charm. Maybe she's like a Marisa who grew up without a Reimu (or Alice, or Patchy, or...) and took enough knocks during her life/existence for her to pick up a vindictive streak and aspirations to villainy.

I wonder how Marisa thinks of her.

edited 13th Nov '10 10:31:40 PM by Tacitus

Kind of interesting, but Imperfect Metamorphosis portrays Mima as being a great magical trendsetter and foundation layer who wrote a good deal of underlying magical theory and who has several books in Patchouli's library.

Patchouli even fangirls at her and wants to get her autograph before some plot related unpleasantness happens.

Well, for being her "Youmu", Marisa has surprisingly little interaction with Mima (then again, it was a PC-98 game). She referes to her as "Lady Mima", so she definitely viewed her as a superior, at the time. If she beats Mima in PODD, she gets all proud of the accomplishment. Conversely, if Mima beats Marisa, she tells her to "train more", which suggests a teacher relationship. I'm still leaning toward "Mima trained Marisa in magic".

Which is why, as of the Windows games, Marisa has taken on Mima's astronomy-style attacks as her own. Whatever skills she steals next, the star theme shows her roots.

So, in conclusion... I lack a clear idea of Mima's character. She certainly has a lot of Marisa in her in terms of being an Anti Hero with a keen sense of showmanship, but she lacks her apprentice/daughter's easy-going nature and roguish charm. Maybe she's like a Marisa who grew up without a Reimu (or Alice, or Patchy, or...) and took enough knocks during her life/existence for her to pick up a vindictive streak and aspirations to villainy.

I wonder how Marisa thinks of her.

I don't see them as being that similar, but maybe the fandom generally takes them in different directions than I would; to my mind, Mima is a smug asshole who is a hero mostly by coincidence of not really being evil and being in the right place at the right time, whereas Marisa is decidedly not evil, and not even really unfriendly, but just happens to be a character in a series where everyone is kind of a jerk and everyone is constantly getting into fights not because of opposing ideologies, but just because they're bored, drunk, misinformed, or some combination of all three.

(But the presence of a keen sense of showmanship in both of them is undeniable.)

This would also seem to apply that evilness is something you grow out of.

Hmm, the way I understood it, "something you grow out of" isn't quite the right way to put it. I think it's more like, well, that an old spirit like her grows to be more and more otherworldly over time. I remember reading about kitsune for instance that they are so much superior to us spiritually that their actions may seem evil at times, but the fact of the matter is that their morality is simply beyond our range of understanding. They're neither evil, nor good.

Soo, I think what was meant was something kinda similar. Mima isn't as ancient as a kitsune yet, and evilness is a part of her being, but she's old enough that her evilness doesn't take such a mundane form anymore as, say, randomly killing or torturing people. She's recognizably an evil spirit in the way she acts, but is more neutral than anything... if that makes sense.

So her morality is more... orange?

Turquoise, if you ask me.

I don't see them as being that similar, but maybe the fandom generally takes them in different directions than I would; to my mind, Mima is a smug asshole who is a hero mostly by coincidence of not really being evil and being in the right place at the right time, whereas Marisa is decidedly not evil, and not even really unfriendly, but just happens to be a character in a series where everyone is kind of a jerk and everyone is constantly getting into fights not because of opposing ideologies, but just because they're bored, drunk, misinformed, or some combination of all three.

Yeah, Anti-Hero isn't really the right term for Marisa, she's less "edgy" and more "mischievous," someone fighting the bad guys and saving the day out of a desire for swag and power rather than altruism (or is she?). Mima, meanwhile, invaded Makai because she called dibs on the human world and didn't want any demons taking it over before she could.

Soo, I think what was meant was something kinda similar. Mima isn't as ancient as a kitsune yet, and evilness is a part of her being, but she's old enough that her evilness doesn't take such a mundane form anymore as, say, randomly killing or torturing people. She's recognizably an evil spirit in the way she acts, but is more neutral than anything... if that makes sense.

Sounds almost as though she's matured from a Chaotic Evil past into a Lawful Evil villain with the ability to plan for the long term. Or maybe she's evil in ways beyond our mortal understanding, even if it looks like she's doing good?

Or maybe she's effectively retired and in denial about it.

SCENE: Hakurei Shrine front porch
Mima: (enjoying a nice cuppa) I'm gonna rule the world, you know.
Reimu: (also slacking) 'sthat right?
Mima: Oh yeah. Soon my schemes will come to fruition, and the power of the Hakurei Shrine will be mine.
Reimu: 'kay.
Mima: That's right, you better worry. With loyal minions like Marisa, I will have my revenge.
Marisa: (snore)

edited 14th Nov '10 7:18:45 AM by Tacitus

I definitely get the impression that she used to be evil but got tired of it. Now she either lazes about or does whatever she feels like on a small scale, depending on the author and her mood; the main difference is that she isn't afraid to help Hakurei if that happens to be the path towards having a good time. Sh and Reimu are probably quite used to each other by now and on friendly terms. Still, from an official standpoint she can't solve incidents, so we don't see her during the games.

I bet she chills out at the pond pool behind the Shrine, where Genji usually swims.

By the way:

"Four girls invaded Hell to end a demonic incursion, but only three came out, and afterward they never spoke of what happened down there. I remember Usually Dead went with something similar, and had Mima stuck behind a seal used to contain Shinki. "

When was this? Was that during Ask Yuyuko? Because otherwise, I thought I'd read all his Touhou stuff.

Four girls invaded Hell to end a demonic incursion, but only three came out, and afterward they never spoke of what happened down there.

...

Four girls invaded Hell to end a demonic incursion, but only three came out, and afterward they never spoke of what happened down there.

Wait, Hell? Hell isn't the same place as Makai. I mean, it could be if you wanted to translate it that way, but since Makai and Jigoku both exist in this cosmology and it's usually the latter that's called "Hell", that would just be confusing.

edited 14th Nov '10 6:06:50 PM by SuperDimensionman

Byakuren is Mima. Discuss.

Mima while being wildly out of character?

I wonder what would happen if they fused. You know, if Mima "possessed" Byakuren, but only to become a constant presence in their being, not a complete takeover.

Byakuren and Mima are counterparts, like Yin and Yang.

Well, an interaction between Byakuren and Mima can't have happened before UFO, since Byakuren (and all of Hokkai) was sealed up; nobody could get in (except Shinki, evidently).

Unless Mima was in Makai/Hokkai. Or was Byakuren.

Except Mima is faced in Hell, initially.

And Hokkai was pretty tightly sealed.

When was this? Was that during Ask Yuyuko? Because otherwise, I thought I'd read all his Touhou stuff.

Yeppers, in this 'un. It's an interesting column, and his take on Nitori is certainly... unique.

Wait, Hell? Hell isn't the same place as Makai. I mean, it could be if you wanted to translate it that way, but since Makai and Jigoku both exist in this cosmology and it's usually the latter that's called "Hell", that would just be confusing.

Okay, lemme try to get this straight. So we've got Makai where the demons under Shinki hang out, a brutal and otherworldly realm that the sufficiently badass can survive in. And then we've got Jigoku with the traditional Hell of Blazing Fires, so I guess that's where all the punishing of the damned happens. But while Mima was encountered in Jigoku, Byakuren was sealed in Makai... and there's an Ancient City in the "ouchie-burnie" Hell... was the Palace of the Earth Spirits built while Mima was around, and did she meet its mistresses? Why did the oni need to found the Ancient City if they had Makai to live in? Was Mima a damned soul or one of the evil spirits that haunts Jigoku? What's the difference between Makai and Hokkai? Why does Japan need so many hells?

We need to steal Something Awful's Psyduck emoticon.

Byakuren is Mima.Discuss.

Ooooooh, interesting. So Mimakuren spent her life doing the Youkai Jesus thing, got sealed in Jig... Maka... Overcomplicated Japanese Hell. She gets nice and bitter, swears revenge on the world of mortals, projects her spirit to raise some hell, and gets beat down by Reimu. After this violent befriending Mimakuren starts to revert to YouChrist mode and ditches the Mima persona in favor of the old Byakuren identity. The last thing she does before sending her spirit back into her captive body is covertly contact her old allies to arrange a jailbreak. Imagine her surprise at being rescued by her old friendly enemy or former apprentice instead...

Or maybe Mima met Byakuren at some point in Overcomplicated Japanese Hell and came to admire the old nun, but Byakuren died during captivity. Mima gives up her old life(?) and takes up Byakuren's name and mission. Or maybe it's all just a con to get out of OJH.

It would certainly add an interesting angle to the interactions between Byakuren and Marisa.

EDIT: Keep forgetting to link to the Mima-sama comics.

edited 14th Nov '10 9:16:45 PM by Tacitus