Severe Misuse: Violation Of Common Sense

Yeah, I know there must have been a discussion about this one, but I havent been here for awhile and dont really feel like checking months worth of discussions. Anyway, on the main page, somebody's put, 'most of these examples belong in Stupidity Is the Only Option or Press X to Die and should be moved'. Yeah, they're not lying. If this has already been discussed, then forgive my laziness for not checking the forums, but otherwise, this really needs fixing.

This was discussed, but if we reached any consensus, then we certainly didn't do anything about it.

There is a comment or two on its discussion page....

Here's the old thread. There was never any decision, the discussion just died.

Alright, to get more discussion going, here's how I think we could break down the related tropes:

• Guide Dangit: The solution to a game puzzle is something that can't be reasonably inferred from the game or manual. Sister trope the other two.
• Stupidity Is the Only Option: Either a game puzzle or the plot requires you to do something that's stupid in-universe.
  • Example: In a game that falls prey to Item 168 on the Grand List of Console RPG cliches (i.e. you will spend 60 - 90% of the game unwittingly doing the bidding of the real bad guy), then upon replaying the game and knowing the plot in advance, there will still be no way for you to avoid advancing the Big Bad's scheme.
• Violation of Common Sense: A game puzzle or the plot requires you to do something that would be stupid in the real world, but this is treated as perfectly normal in the game.
  • Example: In Cave Story, there's a scene where you can either go help an injured teammate or just leave them be, and your decision determines whether they live or die. If you go to help them, they give you a final speech and then die; if you abandon them, then they make a full recovery off-screen.

edited 7th Nov '10 10:18:27 AM by MetaFour

I'm not sure the cave story example you gave qualifies as a violation of common sense.

There are plenty of examples that better fit press X to Die. For instance, the very first example, rocket jumping, basically means, 'blow yourself up so you jump higher'. Then again, that can also be seen as a violation of common sense in itself...

Okay, the current definition seems to imply a violation of common sense is a problem where the solution borders on Insane Troll Logic. The example given in the description is lighting a stick of dynamite by sticking it in a puddle. However, its description in the Video Game Tropes index makes it sound more like Stupidity Is the Only Option. Maybe we need to redefine this one.

Okay, lets go through the tropes individually.

Stupidity Is the Only Option is where the player is faced with a situation that is obviously a trap, or otherwise a bad descision and knows this but has no choice but to perform said act, e.g, walking into a room with obvious spikes on the ceiling and portcullis' above every door, or jumping off a cliff, blowing an airlock, etc.

Press Xto Die is where the player is given an optional action, which will kill them, or injure them if they do it, e.g, pressing the button marked 'Do Not Push' and getting electrocuted, Jumping Into swords, Rocket Jumping, Poking the sleeping dragon with a stick and getting immolated, etc.

Guide Dang It! is where the solution to a puzzle or quest is so obscure or complex that nobody ever thinks of it.

Violation of Common Sense seems to have elements of all three. That is, an action the player must perform to advance the game/quest, that would be stupid or fatal in real life, and doesn't know it, e.g, poking the sleeping dragon with a stick, getting immolated, and recieving the Infinity Plus One Sword instead of dying.

bump.

Okay, I'm the guy who rewrote the desc, after the discussion died out with a general agreement but no one did anything. I think I managed to convey where the discussion had gone.

Meta Four is mostly right about the other tropes. Stupidity Is the Only Option is when something is a 'bad idea to do in the game', but is required to proceed.

But I'm not sure what 'bad idea to do in real life' means.

VOCS is not a 'bad idea to do', it is a '_nonsensical_ idea to do'.

SITOO is when you can see what bad things might logically happen, but the plot forces you to do that anyway. With VOCS, you aren't able to figure it out at all, because that is not a sane option at all.

It is a puzzle needs to be solved in a manner that could not possibly solve the puzzle. It is when a game requires you to light a brick on fire, or walk up a glass window with velco shoes, or power a car with beer.

It's not a sane thing to do in real life, sure, but it's not a very sane thing to do inside the universe of the game either, assuming the universe is Like Reality, Unless Noted.

Example: In the game Runaway, when some batteries die, you have to dip them in liquid nitrogen to make them work again for a few seconds. This could not even possibly help anything, and probably would destroy the batteries. It is based on the urban myth that 'batteries last longer when cold', which is a hypothetical longevity thing for unused batteries. (And, incidentally, disproven.) Warmer batteries work _better_, which is why cooling them might have make them last longer. (But doesn't, at least not measurable.)

It's Did Not Do The Research at best, and Insane Troll Logic at worse, with the added problem of the player having to figure it out, instead of just watch it and wince.

This is usually a Guide Dang It!, of course, unless you are a crazy person, or the illogic has become part of the genre itself, like Rocket Jumping. (Which might should have its own second of 'very common' examples that appear in multiple games, a Coconut Effect list.)

If Violation of Common Sense is mandatory, then we need to change the picture because that action is optional. I personally thought that it was a really stupid action that the game allows you to take (but you may not necessarily have to), and a lot of the examples agreed with that.

If Violation of Common Sense is mandatory, then we need to change the picture because that action is optional. I personally thought that it was a really stupid action that the game allows you to take (but you may not necessarily have to), and a lot of the examples agreed with that.

Thing is, the new description just sounds like Insane Troll Logic. I kinda see what you mean. Its like that puzzle in Silent Hill 2 where you need to combine a hook you find in a stuffed bear, with some human hairs you get from solving a stupid box puzzle, and using them to fish a key out of a drain. Or that one where you have to chuck a six-pack of soda cans down a garbage chute to dislodge an item stuck halfway. But those are both more like Guide Dang It! s. I think we need to redefine this one.

EDIT: Also, you can get cars to run on beer.

edited 8th Nov '10 5:15:52 PM by OmegaKross

Apologies for the double post. Your new description is basically Moon Logic Puzzle.

If Stupidity Is the Only Option is about actions which are mandatory, it seems a Violation of Common Sense, in its original meaning was 'Stupid optional actions. However this is pretty much Press X to Die. Given that the new description is almost the same as Moon Logic Puzzle, and many of the examples on that page are what is being described here, I'm all for cutting this.

edited 8th Nov '10 5:29:39 PM by OmegaKross

In a way, this is Insane Troll Logic, but it's insane troll logic that programmers expect the _players_ to use, so I feel it's different from the normal Insane Troll Logic that you just have to watch other people use.

And on the examples for Insane Troll Logic under Game, they're all about how people _in_ the game use insane logic, which is where I think those examples should be. This trope is when the player himself must think that way.

Meanwhile, this isn't Moon Logic Puzzle because that sort of puzzle is, at heart, just a really unintuitive one. That trope is puzzles that require something that normal people wouldn't think of trying, but it logically _would_ work, which is entirely different from this trope, which is things that logically _won't_ work. At all.

A few of the Moon Logic Puzzle examples actually belong here, like the Metal Gear Solid 2 example where you trick a guard who, despite standing outside in broad daylight, into thinking it's night, by releasing an owl near him. That isn't just 'unintuitive', it is just wrong, period. People cannot be 'tricked' that way. People have watches, people have eyes. That's not even Did Not Do The Research, it's just utterly nonsensical as a solution.

Also, yes, the picture is entirely wrong, that's Press X to Die.

So this is a sister Trope to Moon Logic Puzzle. One is about puzzles with unintuitive solutions which kinda make sense, the other is about puzzles with unintuitive solutions which are batshit crazy. I see. Well the picture definitely needs changing, as does its description in the Video Game Tropes index.

Or, to clarify, the difference between this and Moon Logic Puzzle is with this, there is something that is actually utterly wrong with the answer.

What we talked about a lot on the old discussion was this: http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/77.html

You have to disguise yourself as someone. This person does not have a mustache. You must create a mustache as part of the disguise, and wear it, and it works.

That isn't looking at things in an unintuitive way, that's looking at things in a brain-damaged way. There's a difference between 'solutions that people wouldn't try because they're weird and people don't think of them', and 'solutions that people wouldn't try because they can't possibly solve the problem'.

An exception should be made for non-serious games...you can't actually cyrogenically freeze a hamster by sticking it in an ice machine for 200 years...but that's entirely reasonable to do in the cartoonish Day of the Tentacle. Like I said, there's a Rule of Cool and Rule of Fun exception, and there's also a Rule of Funny I forgot to list.

EDIT: Yup, that's it. It's as if Moon Logic Puzzle met Insane Troll Logic and had a baby, and now the player must figure out Insane Troll Logic. Although examples don't really have to be 'unintuitive'...it's not really lack of 'intuition' that's keeping us from wearing mustaches to disguise ourselves as people not wearing mustaches. It's more lack of not being batshit insane.

edited 9th Nov '10 8:44:52 AM by DavidTC

The proposed distinction between Moon Logic Puzzle and Violation of Common Sense is entirely to subjective for my tastes, especially when you allow exceptions for cartoonish games. The breaking point between "makes sense but you won't think of it" and "doesn't make sense at all" is too nebulous and up to opinion.

There is apoint where anything ceases to make sense, subjective or not. Disguising yourself as a clean shaven guy by wearing a fake mustache is insane. Tricking a guard into thinking its night by making an owl hoot is insane. Now that we've clarified what the Trope is supposed to be, it makes sense.

Well, the problem is that Moon Logic Puzzle is probably too broad, and about half those go under other tropes anyway.

However, from the description, it's very clear it's supposed to only include thing that you 'could' figure out, people just don't. It's a rather subjective trope, as a few examples on that page indicate.

This one isn't subjective at all. It's when the required solution cannot _work_ within the game universe. Not that it's difficult to figure out, not that it's some obscure reference to something made ten hours ago, but when the game has 2+2 and makes you answer 5.

Every example should have an actual part of the 'solution' that simply would not, and could not, work, in the game universe.

The exception was just me pointing out that some game universes aren't really subject to the same laws of physics. Putting a blindfold on someone so they can't look down, and having them walk off a cliff and hover is entirely reasonable...in a cartoon universe. So if the game's in a cartoon universe, that's a reasonable solution. If it's not, that's a Violation of Common Sense.

Sounds good enough. So is Rocket jumping an example of a Violation of Common Sense or Press Xto Die?

Rocket jumping is not a Violation of Common Sense since it makes sense in-universe. Rocket explosions impact force on you; if you are above a rocket when it explodes, it will force you upwards; this propels you in the air. The logic is sound.

Rocket jumping is not Press X to Die because it may be useful. Press X to Die is an optional action which is entirely harmful - or as the page says, "can only ever result in failure or otherwise hinder progress". Rocket jumping can help progress, so it's not Press X to Die.

I think Meta Four's first proposed distinction makes the most sense.

Stupidity Is the Only Option: Required to do something stupid to advance the game. Press X to Die: Given the option to do something stupid that has consequences for the stupidity. Violation of Common Sense: Something that would be stupid in real life, but is a viable option in-game.

In other words, Press X to Die makes you say "That's a terrible idea!" and it is, Stupidity Is the Only Option makes you say "That's a terrible idea!" but you have to do it anyway, and Violation of Common Sense makes you say "That's a terrible idea!" except, in terms of the game, it's not.

Examples: Bob needs to get over an Insurmountable Waist-High Fence. Just in front of the fence is a land mine.

• Press X to Die: Bob steps on the land mine. It explodes and he dies.
• Stupidity Is the Only Option: Bob steps on the land mine, injuring him and furthering the plot.
• Violation of Common Sense: Bob steps on the land mine. The explosion neatly propels him over the fence and the game continues.

So by that logic, Rocket jumping is a violation of common sense. Or at least Landmine Jumping.

Yeah, rocket jumping would be Violation of Common Sense. Bad idea in real life, perfectly legit in game.

I disagree with Meta Four's original definition (something that would be a stupid idea in the real world).

Something can make sense but still be a stupid idea in the real world. You can make money by walking the streets looking for dropped $10 bills. It's a stupid idea, but it's not a violation of common sense.

Furthermore, the definition is so broad as to cover almost any instance of a game differing from the real world. Jumping three times your height (a la Mario), not dying from a headshot, being able to carry unlimited inventory, etc.

I much prefer David TC's definition that a Violation of Common Sense is nonsensical. Rocket jumping isn't nonsensical in real life. In principle, it could work — although you probably wouldn't survive the experience.