Kingdom Hearts

I thought the retcon was phrased in such that Xemnas was actively hiding the Nobodies' capabilities at growing new hearts.

Sure, and that might explain why the Organization members believed it. It does not explain why Yen Sid believed that to be the case, and it makes him, and by extention the main heroes, seem like assholes for not questioning it. Even more so since, as I noted, no one at any point calls Yen Sid out on this.

I mean, to be fair, while sora may have had its doubts about it, we only got the confirmation they have hearts at the end of 3d and there isn't much after the end of 3D until kh3 comes out. Sure they could have done that in 0.2 but it would have been out of nowhere as a plot point. while I agree someone should call yen sid out, I don't find surprising that it hasn't happened yet.

In hindsight, the fact that Nobodies can get their emotions back probably should've been obvious since KHII itself. I mean, the Roxas prologue alone probably should've tipped us off to some level of dramatic irony with Sora's part of the story, not to mention stuff like Demyx's contradiction and Saïx having berserker rage as his main power. For years we traded fan theories about how the official story worked with the other stuff we saw (Roxas-based exceptions and such); turns out the answer was a lot simpler than that. I wonder if it would've been too obvious if it turned out that Yen Sid got some of his Nobody research from Ansem.

What research? AFAIK, Ansem did no research on Nobodies until after he returned from the Realm of Darkness. Yen Sid would have no reason to know about any of that, or to take it at face value even if somehow he did.

The implicit message Kingdom Hearts II gives us is that Yen Sid knows his shit because he's really old and experienced and that it's simply an established fact. At no point either in that game or in later games are we given to understand that Yen Sid is untrustworthy or relying on untrustworthy sources. Even at the end of 3D and in 0.5 everyone is fine with Yen Sid and ready to follow his command. He does not question himself for his blatantly wrong teachings, nor does anyone else.

Really, don't pretend that this was planned out in advance when it so blatantly wasn't. Even Tetsuya Nomura has more-or-less admitted that he makes this shit up as he goes along. If you like the result, that's fine, it really is. But don't try to act like this was always the intention.

Edited by DrDougsh on Jul 6th 2018 at 6:39:48 AM

Fine. Bye.

Could we be a little less confrontational about this?

No, you see, we have to scream at each other for enjoying the stuff we're talking about because Tetsuya Nomura is a hack and personally slighted me.

On a more serious note, I'll never get why people were/are so married to the idea that Nobodies deserve to not exist and can't grow hearts.

I'll concede to the notion that it wasn't meant from the start, but that doesn't make it bad. If anything not addressing how the Nobodies obviously have emotions would have been the way bigger plothole, but whatever.

Edited by LewisLiddel on Jul 6th 2018 at 5:15:40 PM

Darn right.

I don't think the reveal in 3D solved any plot holes so much as it just erased an ambiguity about the nature of emotions and hearts, as in, how closely the "approximated feelings" of Nobodies could mimic "real" emotions driven by the heart. I found that ambiguity — about where the line is between emotions that are meticulously acted out versus "real", spontaneous emotions — far more interesting than the series just going, "Lol, jking, they always had hearts!"

edit :nvm

Edited by Yumil on Jul 6th 2018 at 5:31:56 PM

I'm prejudiced towards Nobodies because they stole the word ________ and they wont it back

To me, that ambiguity was never believable because their most emotional states were shortly before their defeat when it would make the most sense for them to drop the charade. But instead even the most stoic members like Saix, Xemnas and Marluxia allow for emotions such as anger, hate or longing to burgeon inside them.

It always seemed more likely that they suppressed whatever burgeoned inside them. Additionally, and this is anecdotal evidence, I watched quite a few blind LPs of the series and all of them without exception had the players rejecting the idea that Nobodies couldn't feel.

All of this is why I feel the "twist" in 3D is warranted. Now, I do wish they would have revealed it earlier, preferably in Prankster's Paradise, but whatever.

oh god my hands curse you Riku Ansem why must you still torture me so many years later still

Just noting how 358/2 also dealt with things. After all, if Lea/Axel was a Nobody, why did he feel such a big connection to Roxas and Xion? If Nomura said he makes things up as he comes along, I'd say he comes quite fast with the ideas and saves them for quite the long time.

Edited by ZeroDozer on Jul 6th 2018 at 2:06:42 PM

There's no way you're taking Kari's heart!

> After all, if Lea/Axel was a Nobody, why did he feel such a big connection to Roxas and Xion?

Well,nobody said Noodies couldn't make friends with other Nobodies

Edited by Ultimatum on Jul 6th 2018 at 5:07:43 PM

...Is anyone saying Org 13 didn’t deserve to die? This conversation always confuses me because having a heart or the beginnings of one doesn’t preclude you from being an asshole. Fucking Xehanort has a heart and he’s the goddamn big bad. Pretty sure Larxene and Marluxia would continue to be assholes even with a heart.

It gives you a conscience, but that doesn’t mean you have to listen.

I can see the argument of “if Xemnas didn’t lie to them they wouldn’t have done any of that,” I guess.

Edited by stargirl93 on Jul 6th 2018 at 1:23:09 PM

Let's not forget that the Organization is said to try and emulate social interaction. It was like that at first for Axel, except that from the first third of 358/2 onwards, he starts to develop a true bond with Roxas and Xion and even feels really bad for having to hunt Xion down.

Edited by ZeroDozer on Jul 6th 2018 at 2:25:26 PM

That's why I don't find the majority of Organization members very sympathetic. In both Co M and KH 2, most of them either have little personality or are just total assholes.

Outside the Roxas trio, it's really hard to sympathize with any XIII that's not called Demyx.

Unless you read the manga

Demyx is absolutely a total asshole.

It's why I love him. <3

Edited by unnoun on Jul 6th 2018 at 3:45:12 PM

He's a different kind of asshole from the rest, to be fair.

Last one, folks.

What even is Demyx's original name (yes yes I know it's not actually revealed)

Must be Dyme or something like that.