During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Just one other for tonight:
What's the work?
With thanks to ravok for the help? Gregory Sallust...before there was Bond, there was Sallust. Wheatley was hired by the British government for strategist in WW 2 and took this to inspiration for novels...where Sallust is a secret agent against the Nazis. Wheatley was....deeply conservative ("Monarchy rules, communism is satanic" type of deeply conservative) and this reflects it, but...I'm here to talk Sallust's monstrous arch-nemesis: Grauber.
Who is Grauber?
Gruppenfuhrer Grauber is a depraved sexual sadist and Chief of the Gestapo Foreign Department who serves as Sallust's arch-enemy, who has risen to power "over the tortured bodies of a thousand victims" and "upon the blood, misery and tears of innumerable victims." Nice, huh? Introduced when he has Sallust and his ally Tom Archer captured, Grauber tortures Archer to death and tries to toss Gregory into a vat of acid. Only the timely intervention of the Nazi rosenbaum who works for Grauber as Grauber has his brother in a concentration camp and threatens to have him beaten to death...he's already sent the guy's fingers to show he's serious.
Grauber is lter shown to clean up loose ends by sending bombs after victims, Grauber tries to torture Gregory's lover and then tries to lie to claim she's already dead to prevent Gregory from saving her from his dungeons where she can be left to rot and starve. Grauber is blinded in one eye and later takes vengeance by actually torturing Erika brutally, threatening to make her his personal torture toy for the remainder of her life....though she's saved here, Grauber later forces her to watch him torture a woman via electrocution until she's half dead. And as a terrible boss, Grauber also threatens his own men. The captain of a sub he's on? Do wht Grauber says or the man's family will be tossed in a concentration camp to die....he then tries to torture Erika again.
The final book... Some idiot promotes Grauber to Obergruppenführer and puts him in charge of a vast military operation in Russia, where Grauber quickly establishes a particularly brutal treatment of even his own troops, ordering any commanding officer who loses a village or front against their foes to be executed, and having any and all soldiers who are seen walking away from a battlefield front to be shot on sight.
Grauber, realizing the Reich is going to fall, captures Sallust and informs him he's going to blind Sallust with a cigar, pour acid into his mouth to destroy his tongue, and then stab his eardrums with sewing needles before dumping him in the middle of a warzone, bragging that he'll either be killed in the chaos or left to live a life as a blind, mute, deaf man....see, the only issue here...Sallust is undercover as a friend of Hitler, and the Nazis see this, barge in and decide Grauber is a traitor...so he's dragged off, screaming and begging, to be tortured to death.
Any mitigating issues?
While Hitler and Himmler have wider-scale evil, Grauber is responsible for tons of horrible deaths and loads and loads of monstrous torture, being a depraved sadist. He's just a creepy pervert, too, with nothing good approaching anything about him (he has "boyfriends," but just to torture them to get off.)
Beyond that, nothing.
Conclusion?
A hearty yes.
Easy yes to Grauber. I'll throw in a belated yes to Augus as well.
Yes to Grauber. Personally not really following the script page talk but I could live without it for now at least.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Magnolia and Grauber.
『 』
Grauber.
to Grauber
Cross-wired freak
to Grauber and Magnolia
"The Juice is Loose."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Gruppenfuhrer Grauber
to Grauber and Magnolia.
On an unrelated note, anyone else having trouble opening folders ? They're not working on my phone.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
"The Juice is Loose."
Beast: It happened to me a while ago, but it's not anymore.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:50:16 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
How sweet it is
Grauber.
Folders are working fine on mobile here.
Edited by Berrenta on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:59:08 AM
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
It's not just folders for me, it's the spoiler tags.
Grauber.
Caesar
Happy, hearty 'Yes' to Grauber, excellent work there, chum!
Now, for my proposal from the Sallust series? With thanks to Lighty for convincing me he was worth the proposal, we have a man as well known in real life as the fiction he comes from...
Who is he?
"The pasty-faced, chinless chief of all police in the Third Reich, the man who had ordered the torture, mutilation, and death of thousands," Heinrich Himmler himself.
What had he done?
Serving as Adolf Hitler's top advisor during the time of World War II and architect of a vast majority of the atrocities the Nazis got up to, Himmler is responsible for the promotion and empowering of psychos like Grauber throughout the war, who reports directly to Himmler himself, even.
A cold, cruel man whose own soldiers are known to be confined to concentration camps or flat-out executed for failure, Himmler is revealed to be the one who comes up with the idea of, and oversees the institution of the Nazi "Final Solution," convincing Hitler to allow him to go about the act of rounding up every Jew under Nazi control, throw them in concentration camps, and have them killed via gas chambers or any other number of brutal ways, leaving millions dead at Himmler's discretion.
So great is Himmler's hatred for those he seems "inferior" that, when Hungary refused demands from Himmler to execute its entire Jew population numbering over 700,000, Himmler took troops needed on actual battlefields and turned them into extermination squads he sent to invade and slaughter Jews throughout Hungary, uncaring of anyone caught up in the bloodshed or that his own armies needed the reserve troops desperately.
Himmler also personally endorses Grauber in his many attempts on Gregory Sallust's life over the years, and as the war begins nearing its end, Himmler is put in charge of an entire military front by Hitler. Himmler...quickly proves himself to be not only an incompetent strategist, but also a total damn lunatic. He forces his troops through horrendous conditions that leave many dead, he order the relatives of any soldiers who are captured to be hunted down and shot dead, and, when a German outpost experiences heavy losses and near defeat, Himmler has "scores of people," including even young soldiers on his own side, executed and strung up with signs around their necks saying "I am hanging here because I left my post."
Continuing to bungle any military advantage the Nazis have while continuing to vehemently push for total extermination of all Jews, Himmler eventually realizes things are not going to end well for Hitler and the Reich, and decides to sell out. Himmler begins contacting the Allies, planning to betray Hitler and allow the Nazi's enemies to infiltrate Germany, with rumors even saying that Himmler promised to personally hand deliver Hitler's corpse to the Allies to secure partnership.
Himmler, hoping to be appointed new leader of the Nazis after Hitler's takedown while believing the world will let him continue his atrocities so long as he's not causing wars or trouble for other countries, is ultimately ousted by fellow Nazis and Grauber himself to Hitler, who orders Himmler stripped of rank and executed...of course, Himmler picks up on where the chips are falling, and vanishes from the Nazi eye, and though his comeuppance isn't depicted onscreen, Himmler is noted to have eventually died via suicide, which falls in line perfectly with what happened to him in real life after being captured by the British.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Not a one, Himmler is just a slimy bastard who believes in "superior genes" and seeks to cleanse the world of those he deems inferior, primarily the Jews. He's hated by enemy and ally alike for his willingness to kill even the best soldiers for minor slip-ups, and even Hitler's great trust and friendship with him isn't worth shit to Himmler, who quickly begins scheming for the downfall of his boss and supposed "friend" as soon as things look greener on the other side.
Heinousness?
Himmler has, by far, the highest bodycount in the series along with Hitler himself. Himmler causes millions of deaths via war and concentration camps with his mad "Final Solution", he kills his own troops, and his stint as a military commander involved countless people being strung up supposedly "leaving their posts" when a outpost was attacked, and ordering the families of any Nazi soldiers taken alive by killed.
The Nazis are detailed to have plenty of bad, sadistic bastards, but none match up to Himmler in sheer body count.
Anything else?
Well there is a slight issue with Himmler that I initially hesitated on, and that's simply that he's only onscreen a grand total of about 3 times, and only one of them of which he actually has dialogue. He's generally moreso talked about, and his atrocities seen after he's already committed them or is simply directing them from afar.
It's very limited screen(page?)time, but...thing is, as Lighty and I discussed? Himmler's biggest appearance of the 3 times he shows up is a solid chapter based around his personality, the hold he has over fellow Nazis, his cold, clinical detachment to his atrocities, and him bluntly ordering even Grauber himself to finally kill Sallust within 3 months' time or face lethal punishment.
On top of this, despite the limited physical presence, Himmler is felt through the entire arc of Sallust fighting the Nazis. Himmler is the driving force for the Nazis throughout the books, serving as the one Sallust attributes most of the group's brutalities to, and his crimes, personality, and everything else are all detailed very nicely to the point that I can safely say Himmler has more than enough character and presence to count.
Final Verdict?
Ja
Edited by Ravok on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:16:25 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Yes to Nazis.
And a happy yea to Heinrich Himmler
Ultimate Moral Compass
Ja for Grauber and Himmler
"No running in the halls!"
to Grauber und Himmler
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Oct 27th 2020 at 10:14:39 AM
to Heinrich Himmler.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
the Nazi guys and the Antebellum Trio
Sad Cut to Spider, loathsome bastard who'd be bad enough,IMO, if he were the leader, but as it stands...
As a side note, it was my baby sisters 2nd Birthday the other day!
Edited by Snoketrope on Oct 27th 2020 at 11:24:40 AM
The First man
Goku Black
Grauber and himmler
Congrats kylo.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Magnolia
Watch me destroying my country