During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Nix.
Remind we why we're cutting the Hip Hop Comics stuff? I think the fact it's the characters rapping it allows for more leeway.
Also, Sabaton's Karadzic is a keep?
Also, for Frieza, there are 2. The Maximum one was cut, but there's also this one I got up.
Edited by ACW on Oct 3rd 2020 at 1:34:05 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
One of the songs I covered includes Reinhard Heydrich going to Hell after his assassination and being tormented by images of his victims.
Lizzid people!
Yeah historical fiction is fine.
Yeah, the hip hop thing is just the characters rapping how evil they are. There needs to be some type of context/narrative to construct the vilainy and requisite characterization
People being made into cannibals or vampires is obviously going to be enough of an altercation they can count.
Imp, Does he just do what he did in real life and then goes to Hell at the end? I'm not down to list him if that's the case.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 3rd 2020 at 1:36:30 PM
Goku Black
Basically some kind of story even if its not much .
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I mean, with Joker, he describes some of his actions, for what it's worth. Ditto my Frieza.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
@43 Well, alright then.
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Nix
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Also, for Macabre, we can probably also cut Fritz Haarmann.
So from here, which Macabre ones are keeps? I wanna merge with the main music page before we cut from there.
Edited by ACW on Oct 3rd 2020 at 2:06:13 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Expect an effortpost from Vampires vs. the Bronx for October 16, folks
Just so it doesn't get lost in the scuffle, I'm going to restate I think Paul Bernardo should go:
- Complete Monster: Paul Bernardo, the Scarborough Rapist, is a sociopathic Serial Killer who assaults lone women for sheer pleasure and regularly abuses his girlfriend, the titular Karla. Having become obsessed with Karla's sister, Tammy, Bernardo drugs and rapes her, recording the whole act, which ended with Tammy overdosing. Abducting a girl named Tina, Bernardo continuously rapes her for three days until she strangles her to death and dismembers her body. Beginning to enjoy ending his victims' lives, Bernardo brings another girl to his home and tortures her, forcing her to watch her parents pleading for help on national television. After murdering her, Bernardo leaves her body to rot in the woods and laughs at the police for making wrong assumptions. A sadistic Psychopathic Manchild with a fondness for dominance, Bernardo never had the courage to assume responsibility for his actions, and proved himself to be one of the worst criminals of his time.
It's exploitative, the director apologized for it, the effort poster was reluctant to do the writeup and I think it's been an elephant in the room that got kind of forgotten about. Even leaving alone the tastelessness of the work lead to us electing to implement a rule about what we look for to propose from... what's he doing that he didn't just do in real life? I guess we could argue it's not perfectly accurate (not watching it to verify) but this is sheer offensiveness disguised as an entertainment film. It humanizes a monster, it pushes for atrocity to shock it's audiences and I don't see why we've gotta humour it by letting it be analyzed and put on the list. Just wanna get this out before it gets lost in the music stuff.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeesh, that seems like a FAR clearer cut than some of our other historical fiction keepers. Especially if one of the actors himself apologized. And in this case, the liberties they took with the story actually make the film seem WORSE.
Edited by ACW on Oct 3rd 2020 at 2:16:43 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I have no problems cutting it on taste where the director tries to eroticize rape scenes, but I don't think the real life test is what we should use for film and TV. Music is just a brief restatement, something that's not a documentary will by definition have a fictionalized portrayal regardless of the accuracy of the crimes committed.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Paul Bernardo.
For simplicity's sake, I'll add any new cuts and proposals to the list I created here
Goku Black
The real life test doesn't apply to films and tv but I will Say that this should go on the basis of tastelessness imo.
Edited by miraculous on Oct 3rd 2020 at 11:19:31 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think with Ilsa Koch someone said the lampshade stuff removed it enough that she could keep?
Edited by ACW on Oct 3rd 2020 at 2:19:36 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Obviously I had the music candidates in mind as that's been the forefront of discussion and slipped up over-extending. The tastelessness still applies, don't ignore that to jump on the second point and keep restating it doesn't apply.
Goku Black
Oh no I agree it should go. Nothing of value will be lost. Just not for the real life rule.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, I'll still vote to cut Paul. Tastelessness, plus the fact it paints Karla in a better light than she deserves.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lizzid people!
@ACW Yeah, that's an accusation that gets thrown around a lot, but it was never proven.
As for Movie!Bernardo, he's depicted as abusing Karla and forcing her to participate in his crimes, when she was far more willing in real life. To be frank, I can't say I'm entirely comfortable with cutting somebody on the grounds of tastelessness, since that's inherently subjective. I mean, I won't be sad to see him go, but I think we should at least be careful not to apply this too broadly.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
What ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."