During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
An Eldritch Troper
Could you also comment on some of the villains present at the Hellboy page as well? (We’d discussed Nimue, von Klempt, Rasputin and Baba Yaga, but the others?)
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
I'd lean yea to Azzael. The only worry is the apocalyptic end goal isn't really uncommon among...well, a good chunk of the villains, but Azzael affects the series in ways rivaled only by major villains while appearing in fuck-all himself except for flashbacks.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 19th 2020 at 11:28:52 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Azzael
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Comment in what way? Scraggle and I put most, if not all of them up
Goku Black
....Haven't you added like all of them between the two of you. Not sure what the issue is. All of them got eps
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I think he means the character page as that was what he potholed to. Not a single character listed on there otherwise (again, save for the second Black Flame) merit discussion, most for reasons self-evident in their character folders.
to Azzael.
Yeah to be perfectly honest I wasn't sure about Shaw myself. That's why I discussed him with futuremoviewriter and he said that Shaw might have a shot even if that murdering his wife's lovers and later the wife was only mention. Yeah if there was flashbacks if him doing such, then I'd be more confident, but unfortunately for my situation it was only mention by Elise and later Frank mentions it to Shaw. I really had no idea that last bit was such a big deal, and I apologize if I left it out. I hope that this will not cost me any trust, and that you will still look forward to when I effort post a candidate that I think could count.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 19th 2020 at 8:51:14 AM
An Eldritch Troper
I don’t see why Hecate and Giurescu don’t keep, although from what I’ve read the former isn’t heinous enough and the latter has a loved one.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
G, you know the rules for offscreen villainy. That overemphasized, enormously, something that could not count to his inclusion.
Uhh...shouldn't that answer why not?
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 19th 2020 at 10:50:39 AM
I mean Frank calls Shaw out for the murders and Shaw never really denies them. I thought that would be enough, but apparently that is not the case. Again I'm sorry and I hope to do better at distinguishing what's onscreen and what's off-screen when I effort-post characters next time. I hope that I didn't lose any trust from you and you still look forward to when I discuss candidates
@G-Editor, @Lighty What I said was: "If you could find a way of bringing the killings into they Frey and/or spinning the idea that Shaw killing with his rage helps express his volatility with his actions overall, maybe you can spin it."
I should have emphasized that I was uncertain about it though given it wasn't shown and thought maybe something was shown that put focus on it. Again, I'm sorry G.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 19th 2020 at 10:59:15 AM
Goku Black
It's uh still offstage though.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Switching to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Torch AND Shaw.
Also now that I'm a bit more established in this thread I'd like to bring up another current CM for deletion that I don't think fits (hopefully this proposal will go a little better haha), that being Mad King Aerys from A Song Of Ice and Fire.
The thing is, while I certainly agree Aerys fills most of the CM qualifiers easily...there's also this passage:
"The march of the king's madness seemed to abate for a time in 274 AC, when Queen Rhaella gave birth to a son. So profound was His Grace's joy that it seemed to return him to his old self once again...but Prince Jaehaerys died later that same year, plunging Aerys into despair."
Granted, this is from an All There in the Manual side book and not the main series, but it's still canon and evidence from it was used to get Aerys approved for CM in the first place, so...is this not an instant disqualification? We've disqualified villains from this trope for far less explicit displays of love towards another person, and genuine love towards someone else has always been a near-instant disqualify for CM, which this pretty clearly is.
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 19th 2020 at 11:32:44 AM
to Kentos, Leonard, Charles and Azzael. to Torch and Shaw.
@Wary Never read any of those books, but anybody else have something to say about that? How much weight does that truly hold?
my argument here (that I probably should have made in my OP, whoops) would be its specifically stated in the series many times that while he was young, Aerys was just your typical cocky womanizing Jerkass but ultimately harmless and not really an evil guy, and once he became king he slowly became crazier and crazier due to being a result of several generations of incest, him being kidnapped and held in a dungeon for a year by his political enemies, and his wife's numerous stillborn children until he became The Caligula who started randomly burning dozens of people alive that we know and don't love. This passage about his joy at the birth of his son and despair when the son died a couple months later ties into that which makes me think he's just a little too humanized and is given a little too much genuine love for his died-as-an-infant son to be a proper CM.
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 19th 2020 at 11:50:56 AM
Goku Black
Hey btw Wary are you going to writeup lady of green kirtle.
Since she was approved.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I was going to write her up over the weekend when I'm not busy with schoolwork as much, thank you for the reminder though
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Dunno about Mad King.
So, having finally finished Life has No Meaning Without You, I would like to revisit Eliot and Sean. The original EP for both focused too much on their despicable qualities and not on their actual crimes. This will not be an outright EP, though- just an attempt to provide a more clear overview of their deeds.
So, Sean orders the death of William and has his hitmen Make It Look Like an Accident. Eliot, meanwhile, intentionally tricks Nathan into killing Rachel via overdose. The two team up, and Sean has Eliot go after Max and Chloe. He incapacitates a truck driver, puts him beside himself as he drives the truck.
What I do not believe the EP mentioned is that Eliot succeeds in killing Chloe, blood splatters and everything. Granted, Max can rewind time, but the death and general ordeal is portrayed as horrifying nonetheless.
- In front of her eyes, she saw the chromed grid of the semi-truck crush the driver's side of Chloe's truck, blood spurting as the force of the impact splattered her girlfriend, killing her instantly. The deafening sound of the twisting metal was the last thing she heard before the world around her turned grey and froze, like a black and white still frame from a video.
She unconsciously pulled on Time, her head throbbing both from the pain of the initial crash and from her effort. It was horrendous. She saw as the world slowly, painfully slow, moved backward; the frame of the pick up slowly untwisting, glass shards slowly flying back to their place, blood splatter returning to Chloe's veins as her mangled body slowly pieced itself back together.
It went so slow, Max was certain she could tell at which moment life had disappeared from her girlfriend's eyes.
In fact, Eliot manages to kill her again, crushing her:
- The hit had not been as clean as before this time, the truck hitting more toward the engine bay. But still, Max saw with horror as the pick-up's body crushed under the impact, twisting and starting to cartwheel. Pain flared in the side of her head as her body was projected against the passenger door. Pain flared on Chloe's face as the driver's door rammed into her side. And then the Semi-truck's front wheel climbed onto the small pick-up truck and crushed Max's lover as it moved toward her.
The whole time, Max is bleeding and in pain (several lacerations and a broken arm). Eliot opens fire on some officers as well. As a result, both Max and two officers are hospitalized.
Eliot shoots Max at the grad ceremony. She uses time travel to dodge, so he shoots Chloe instead, blowing up her head:
- Another shot echoed along the bleachers and a scream followed. Max's blood curled as she recognized Joyce's voice. Her eyes moved toward the crowd and as she feared, saw Chloe on the ground with half her head missing and blood all around her body.
No! No! No! FUCK NO! I'm not letting this happen!
Sean himself, meanwhile, watches the whole thing, smiles with sadistic pleasure, then pulls out a gun and threatens Chloe, then attempts to shoot Kate only for an officer to sacrifice himself instead, dying in the process. Oh, and a weird scene near the end reveals that Sean caused some of the disasters (like fish showing up on the beach dead) through his development activities and the like- something about unbalancing the spirits.
So, that is the rundown.
- Eliot is responsible for the death of Rachel, kills Chloe at least three times in gruesome ways, injures Max and two officers so badly that they need to be hospitalized, and very nearly kills Max herself.
- Sean is directly responsible for the death of William, orders Max and Chloe killed, smiles sadistically when he sees Max nearly killed in front of him, and tries to kill Chloe and Kate but ends up killing an officer instead. He is also responsible for the bizarre disasters, though I am not so sure if he even knew about the effects and thus whether it can be counted against him.
Relevant chapters- 66, 67, 81, and 82.
Edited by MasterN on Feb 20th 2020 at 12:10:04 PM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Goku Black
No to both of them. Their just kill the hero villains. Since Elliott isn't actually aware of the time travel stuff. We also can't use his multiple attempts against him. So it only counts for one murder.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I think I saw the Mad kings insanity discussed before, it was said(IIRC) That many other tagaeryians had the same insanity thing and didn't become the evil sadist he did.
The son thing I haven't seen talked about and will wait for others words on
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 20th 2020 at 10:17:12 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Azzael
Sean and Elliot
As for Aerys? I think Lighty's the ASOIAF expert here, so I'll wait for his thoughts.
Honestly, I've had doubts about Aerys ever since The World of Ice and Fire came out. It really made it clear, IMO, that he was legitimately mentally ill and not just cruel and arbitrary. The point that other Targaryens suffered from the family madness without descending to the same depths is a valid one, though.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Azzael
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."