During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay, so I just did a search, and yes, it appears that it's already been confirmed that he doesn't show any genuine love for his adoptive father. I was just wondering about that since again, I haven't seen the film but read that at the very least, he has what could be interpreted a "bonding moment" with him. Specifically, I saw this specific quote in his personality description; "However, he does seem to love his adoptive father Glaub, as shown when he put his hand around Glaub's neck in a genuine moment when they board their airship to finalize their plan to destroy Silicon Valley."
So yeah, I just wanted to play it safe after I saw that, even though I figured it was probably already taken into consideration. As for my general habit of doing this from time-to-time, I'm sincerely sorry for the inconvenience it causes for anyone. It's just that... well, this might sound strange, but I actually have a bit of anxiety when it comes to searching previous pages of discussion. Enough so that at times, even when I'm inquiring about a character I'm pretty sure has been dealt with, I feel much more comfortable asking for a quick and direct answer rather than looking around and finding things I really don't want to find in the process. I can't really explain anymore without getting into personal information that I would much rather talk about in a private message, rather than on a public forum. So please understand that while this habit may be a nuisance at times, this is anything but a simple case of laziness on my part. And obviously, I'm not trying to encourage others to do this too, but for me, searching through most of particular pages where I wasn't part of the conversation, if not their entirety, can be genuinely intimidating, if not outright nerve-wracking. Again, I know that may sound really weird, but please take my word for it.
Honestly, I wasn't even planning on admitting this much, but I have no choice since clearly, some regular tropers like Scraggle are starting to notice my pattern of doing this, and if I don't say anything, it's going to make me look really bad, like I'm deliberately disregarding this guideline. However, this is not the case, and if you really want to know more, I'm willing to talk about it, but not here on an open forum. PM me about it and I can explain more... just so long as you're willing to be open-minded, of course.
Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Nov 9th 2018 at 10:28:21 AM
On the topic of Freudian Excuses ... I've been wondering for a while now: when is a FE not valid? I keep thinking of approved CMs like Mick Taylor, Freddy Krueger, and Randall Flagg, who all had some really horrible things happen to them prior to their monstrous actions, but they're still considered irredeemably evil, while others aren't. Not that I have any candidates in mind, I'm just asking as more of a general question.
Edited by Stellarvore on Nov 9th 2018 at 9:09:38 AM
Case-by-case. Generally when a villain's actions and motives stop going hand-in-hand with their excuse or their excuse no longer sufficiently explains the root cause of their villainy in a way that's sympathetic to any extent (e.g. Anput's Freudian Excuse has literally nothing to do with her plot to destroy Wall Street, Ardyn and Mothergod have valid excuses but go way too far to warrant any sympathy at the end) we stop measuring it as mitigating.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
I think Ardyn might be the character who got the most legitimately screwed over in his backstory who we still invoked the "doesn't adequately explain things" clause for.
Though there will apparently be a DLC with him as the protagonist...
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Okay, I think I need to make a list of C Ms whose Freudian Excuse doesn't mitigate their actions starting now and you can see it on my sig:
UPDATE: It's moved on my main page. Good riddance
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Dec 9th 2018 at 11:05:26 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Yeah, there are some who just blow past beyond what adequate justification any excuse could offer, or are evil in spite of it...Ardyn did get screwed but he takes his revenge so crazy far, and he knows how evil and nuts he is...he just doesn't care
Lord of Hell
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Doflamingo's one of the first to come to my mind. Even back when I was against his inclusion, I knew his past wasn't anywhere close to a disqualifying factor.
Alright now...
What's the work?
The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina is a netflix produced adaptation of the comic of the same name. Sabrina Spellman is a teenager in Greendale with a secret: she's a witch....in fact, coming up? Sabrina is the daughter of the former High Priest of the Church of Night, the ruling body of witches in the area...and witches? Pledge full allegiance to Satan, the Dark Lord by signing his book, and he really, REALLY wants Sabrina who refuses to do so, throwing things for a crisis as Sabrina deals with the insanity around her on a daily basis.
Sabrina is also the daughter of a witch and a human woman, further complication matters, and she lives with her witch aunts Zelda and Hilda...Now, our CM? The villain of the series: Madam Sadam.
Who is Madam Satan?
A demon who wishes to manipulate Sabrina to eventually win her place at the side of Dark Lord himself, Madam Satan claws her way out of Hell to be picked up by a teacher of Sabrina's, Mrs. Wardell, whom she murders and steals the identity of. Little by little, Madam Satan manipulates Sabrina, with...potential of other casualties growing higher. In one episode, the mortal uncle of one of Sabrina's friends is possessed by a parasitic demon. Madam Satan assists her in performing an exorcism...but then, to crush Sabrina's heart further? She uses a voodoo doll to murder poor Uncle Jesse, gloating how he's played his part in the Dark Lord's plans.
Manipulating Sabrina more and more to darkness, the final episodes see her put herself fully out there. Madam Satan sacrifices a student at the Greendale hanging tree to revive a group of hanged witches....summoning the Greendale 13, a group of powerful witches who were betrayed by their own long ago. The witches promptly summon the Red Angel of Death to sweep through the town, which will kill tons of people. Sabrina manages to protect them, thankfully, with massive casualties very narrowly averted, allowing Madam Satan to corrupt her further....tricking her into signign the Book of the Beast to defeat the Greendale 13, but also sacrificing her soul.
The first season ends with Sabrina a full witch, as well as damned in service to the Dark Lord as Madam Satan gloats over this with her captive, the principal...see, everything went according to plan, and now? She's riding the train to become the Dark Lord's queen for the power involved. And her real name? Lilith which she reveals before eating the poor guy alive, when she exposes her true face...and then murders her own familiar for good measure, ending season 1 very much triumphant, with death and destruction behind her and Sabrina's soul corrupted.
Heinous standard?
Worst by a country mile. She's got a decently sized body count and nasty manipulations, nearly has Greendale wiped off the map as just as power play move, organizes a teenager's potential damnation, eats people alive, engages in human sacrifice...now, the witches are...kinda dark. Like, they practice dark magic happily, and one ritual is called the Feast of Feasts where the 'winner' will be sacrificed and cannibalized by the rest of the coven...there's a lot of dark stuff here, but Madam Satan? Highest count by far and easily the nastiest.
Mitigating Qualities?
Zip. She'll act nice, but that's all her act. She's nasty, heartless and privately reveals her utter contempt of Sabrina and the Dark Lord's interest in her. She loves hurting and killing others and while she'll help sabrina, it's all to further her true plans. Not a trace of good intent in her, and while she's a demon? Demons do have levels of agency here. No issue.
Conclusion?
As of right now? I'd say Madam Satan handily makes it.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure on Madam Satan.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Madam Satan aka Lilith no.3
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Madam Satan. What IS it with all these gritty Archie Comics adaptations, anyway?
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
to Madame Satan.
Also Jerome comes to mind in the "Sympathetic past that dosent mitigate there villainy" thing.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Kylotrope Jerome Valeska? If so, I'll add him.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lord of Hell
to Madame Satan.
Question. Is Chilling Adventures of Sabrina a step up from Riverdale?
Yes to the villain from Edgy Adventures.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Madam Satan.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
On a side note; I eagerly await whatever the come up with for Josie and the Pussycats.
Elfen: I think you forgot Arcadius and Monique Deveraux.
Edited by Beast on Nov 9th 2018 at 9:54:46 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lizzid people!
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@HamburgerTime: It's the new trend. Everyone got sick and tired of all the dark and edgy superhero movies so now we're getting dark and edgy live-action adaptations instead.
for Madam Satan.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Nov 9th 2018 at 11:01:02 AM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@Beast Added and also, didn't we also have another incarnation of Lilith. Lilith Sullivan, that Lilith from Webcomic and the Lilith from True Blood are the ones that I can remember.
P.S. I'll add some C Ms who have some Freudian Excuse but doesn't hold up in the present on my list if you guys have some suggestion.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Nov 9th 2018 at 11:01:57 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Abstain on Madame Satan. There's literally been one season so far, so isn't it too early for anyone to qualify?
If I may contribute a little, I believe Lord Voldemort also fits the Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse category. I believe in his case, because he essentially grew up without parents, he never had the chance to really know or understand love, but he still clearly made all the choices he made of his own volition, which is especially apparent since the way Harry Potter himself grew up shared some clear similarities; he never really knew his parents, not to mention he lived with relatives that treated him almost entirely with contempt, and yet, he still turned out completely different.
Another possible example may be Zant from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. As he revealed in his Motive Rant, he felt oppressed by the Royal Family in a sense by being relegated to the Twilight Realm along with the rest of the Twili, but out of all of them, he was the only one who turned power-hungry, to the point of turning most of his own people into mindless Shadow Beasts when Ganondorf gave him the power to take what he felt was rightfully his. Meanwhile, no one else saw their situation in the Twilight Realm as so bad, grew perfectly content with it, and all implications point to them doing relatively well for themselves. So if anything, this revealed that he felt that his position and lot in life were unfair due to his burning lust for power, rather than that actually being the case.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Not normally, but if you look above, Elfen Lied Fan is compiling a list of characters who have some sort of FE, but it either doesn't excuse their actions at all, or it ceases to because of how far they took it, so technically, we are talking about this trope. And other people have made suggestions too, so it's not like I'm the only one.
Edited by Devoted2Nintendo on Nov 23rd 2018 at 7:58:12 AM
Lizzid people!
It's great that you want to help out, but this isn't really the place to discuss that trope.
Yea to Madam Satan.
ACW, pal, can we please not do the 'check every contradictory trope' thing?