During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
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to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hidan (I think I added that one) is a literal sadist I believe. Could the Westcott quotes be from the manga?
edited 3rd Jun '16 4:25:05 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Hidan is a Sadomasochist, to be correct. I think the Hidan quote is good enough, it's a special kind of vile and just plain sickening statement.
RIP Toriyama
Alright, the Hidan quote is cool now that I know he's a literal sadist.
As for Westcott, I considered the manga thing.....I then did research, and doscovered that there IS no manga featuring Westcott except Date A Strike, which hasn't been translated into English. Even with that said, he's not in it very long, making the chances that he said ALL that stuff in that short time unlikely.
Which leads into a whole other problem: Date A Strike stars Minerva Liddell. Date A Strike hasn't been translated into English beyond one or two chapters, neither featuring Liddell. So....do we have PROOF that she is a Serial Killer of children? Because I've " Read" (Note: Looked at the pictures of) the untranslated Date A Strike manga, and while I saw numerous instances of her being....sexual....I saw no scenes of her raping and/or killing a child.
I honestly don't know what to think here. Keep the raping/killing and hope that the original proposer could read Japanese? And even if said person COULD read Japanese, again, I saw no Onscreen proof that she raped and/or killed children.
I don't suppose anyone here can read Japanese?
edited 3rd Jun '16 4:46:22 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Lizzid people!
At best, it looks like she mentioned it in passing.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I came upon these pictures, though they're not translated [1]
, [2]
, [3]
, [4]
, and [5]
.
I'll also consult someone who knows a few things regarding the manga if no one minds.
UPDATE: Well, the insight from one fans of Date A Live didn't help much.
edited 3rd Jun '16 5:41:34 PM by AustinDR
RIP Toriyama
That was indeed the only info I could find regarding it. Not only that, but I THINK she only says she killed one. This is just one of those times where, unless someone here can say, without a doubt, that they've read the manga (And understood it) and can attest that Liddell counts, I'm not sure how we should proceed.
Oh, and if anyone wants to look through the manga as well to see that there are no scenes of Liddell murdering a child, I can give links to sites that have the manga RAW (Untranslated).
edited 3rd Jun '16 5:12:19 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I vaguely recall this coming up the first time we discussed her. IIRC somebody was able to confirm it.
edited 3rd Jun '16 5:17:07 PM by HamburgerTime
Her page on the Date A Live wiki here (which for some reason spells her last name Riddell instead of Liddell) states that she "admitted she had raped and murdered a child once".
@60450
I feel that the Ridley and Segai quotes can work out. Yeah they're both quotes about ordering soldiers, but the quotes give some detail on their personalities since both quotes show that they find killing fun. But I agree that those quotes are basic, like with the Johnny Black one.
Meanwhile, here's a quote from Hades
Leaning towards a no on this quote but I'm curious what you guys think of it.
edited 3rd Jun '16 5:25:57 PM by Awesomekid42
Lizzid people!
Doesn't that fall under Offscreen Villainy, though? If anything, this only confirms that she raed and killed one child i.e. not enough to establish a pattern.
edited 3rd Jun '16 5:49:04 PM by AustinDR
Apparently she raped and killed a kid once at some unspecified point in the past, and some morons mistranslated that into her being a serial child rapist and murderer.
What crimes does she commit onscreen?
edited 3rd Jun '16 5:35:57 PM by bobg
jjj
Lizzid people!
It's generic villainy at best; her actions amount to trying to kill Artemisia and her friends. That's it.
I feel like there are other quotes that could be cut:
''Leonardo: You don't understand. The Utrom Shredder isn't like your Shredder. He's vicious. Donatello: Lethal. Michelangelo: Competent!'' —Turtles Forever
This seems to be comparing a serious villain to a silly one and explaining why one is more dangerous then the other, I say cut it.
"At least you still fight like a Roman. Now die like one." —Nihilus to Tacticus, The Story Keepers
That is kinda weak, I would lean towards cutting.
"He's a murderous bastard." —Kushowa on Charles Cooper, You Seem Acquainted With Those Doors
Kinda weak, cut it.
"And at the end of fear...oblivion." —Scarecrow, Batman: Arkham Asylum
Pretty vague, I say cut it.
"I am the Devil!" —Dr. Weil, Mega Man Zero
I don't think this works, it doesn't give you any context on why he is saying this.
"I had to kill Bob Morton because he made a mistake. Now it's time to erase that mistake!" —Dick Jones, Robo Cop (1987)
That's admitting to killing one guy, not the strongest quote.
''What I did to your friend was... Fun. It was fun." —Owen Davian (referring to Lindsey Farris), Mission: Impossible III
Too vague, I say cut.
edited 3rd Jun '16 6:02:43 PM by Overlord
I'll second everything Ravok and Overlord just said re: weak quotes.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
If this is all true, we should could Liddell (or Riddell, or whatever the fuck her last name is). I hope the people who spread this misinformation get reported. Someone should obviously edit her villains wiki page, seeing how it is a fucking lie. Yeah, as you can probably tell, misinformation is a Berserk Button for me.
edited 3rd Jun '16 5:59:07 PM by bobg
jjj
Lok Sat still needs at least one more vote. In the meantime, since he seems to have let Caleb live, does that disqualify him? Yes, he showed mercy, but he had someone else killed in his place instead though,
RIP Toriyama
Now, from what I can gather, Liddell is a huge Sadist and Jerkass, taking perverse pleasure (Read: Starts masturbating) from trying to kill the heroes and (I THINK) murdering her subordinates if they stand up to her, but ultimately, that's common fare in Date A Live. Jessica Bailey, who has approx. the same amount of resources as Liddell, happily tried to massacre dozens of families, including children, and that by itself seems more heinous than Liddell (IF the Serial Rapist thing really is bullcrap).
Also, again, it's hard to tell what with the whole "Can't read the manga", but Liddell is a "Wizard" of DEM, alright? DEM has a habit of seriously mentally jacking up it's Wizards, turning some into raving lunatics. So, even easier than saying she's a Serial Rapist, one could make the case that she's only as evil as she is because that prick Westcott screwed up her mind.
In conclusion, I (Begrudingly, I'll admit, as she seems like a real jackass) motion to cut Liddell until someone can come in and state, without doubt, all of her crimes, Onscreen or not. Whether that comes when the manga (eventually, hopefully) gets translated, or someone who knows Japanese reads through it.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
So I had a question regarding Ray's status as a CM, from Living Dead Girl. Now I haven't read the book but I've done a little research and it says his mother sexually abused him. Wouldn't this make him a tragic villain? Or is this the case where the tragedy really doesn't excuse him due to how heinous he is?
On the point of DEM "mentally jacking up" its wizards, she is confirmed to have raped and killed a kid in the past (though this could have happened after she joined).
Does Jessica Bailey count?
edited 3rd Jun '16 6:25:13 PM by bobg
jjj
Lizzid people!
No, she was brainwashed. That, and Mana reassures her as she was dying that Westcott did care for her, when that clearly isn't the case. That could be interpreted as an Alas, Poor Villain scene.
edited 3rd Jun '16 6:36:59 PM by AustinDR
I think the only other character who might even have a chance of qualifying in Date at the moment is Roger Murdoch, who IIRC did something that threatened the lives of 90,000 or so people. But that's only based on the vague stuff I remember and I do believe he was discussed when Liddell was initially added.
On the quotes... Yeah, I think I agree with what's been said thus far.
edited 3rd Jun '16 6:57:16 PM by Scraggle
I'd say "cut" to almost all those quotes that have been mentioned, save the Ali Al-Saachez one. Inasmuch as you can get a good quote for this trope, a guy declaring himself to be the worst kind of human being is as close as you're going to get.
Cut those quotes.
I'd agree with cutting all the quotes Ravok and Overlord mentioned, even Hidan's since, again, without context it doesn't sound too bad. The only one I'm kinda leaning towards keeping is the Aji Tae quote, since it's a lot closer than the others in portraying a "pure evil" person than simply a "homicidally insane" person. But even then I wouldn't be too broken up if it was cut.
Wild Child
Cut the quotes.
Also, I find it interesting we're (I think) cutting Minerva Liddell, when only a few pages ago people were declaring her the most evil female CM.
edited 3rd Jun '16 7:01:46 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
I'm probably be neutral in regards to the quotes. I'm personally leaning towards keeping the Kanamori quote, but that's just me.
edited 3rd Jun '16 5:45:24 PM by AustinDR