During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
No to Gilgamesh for a few reasons. Namely, he has redeeming qualities: He genuinely cared for Enkidu back in the past, and there's agency issues with corruption by the Holy Grail
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
In one he's summoned by the protagonist and basically only wants to see how their story goes, and saves their life in his ending.
While I haven't read it what I've seen said about Fate Strange Fake has him ignore the Grail War to hang out with Enkidu after learning he was summoned.
How canon it is is up to debate but he's available as a Servant in Grand Order as one of the protagonist's Servants, who is opposing King Solomn's plan to destroy the world.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
He claims it didn't affect him, and I believe WoG confirms it had no effect whatsoever but we don't count WoG so it doesn't matter.
edited 11th Apr '16 1:10:30 PM by doineedaname
Back in Fate/Zero, the prequel to Fate/Stay Night, Gilgamesh was drowned in what was literally the congealed essence of "all the evil in the world." He happened to have a great enough ego that is didn't consume him, but he very clearly changed from how he was then. That, and the very nature of being a servant, seriously brings moral agency into question.
edited 11th Apr '16 1:10:37 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Well we said before, while one may not count, another version can if that version lacks the redeeming qualities the other version has, for example in pokemon while Game Cyrus has redeeming qualities and Freudian excuses that caused him to be disqualified, Anime Cyrus counts because he lacks those traits. It the same thing with the Unlimited Blade Works version of Gilgamesh, he lacks the redeeming qualities that the other versions had.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
I think I'll change my vote on simply abstaining for Gilgamesh. Coincidentally I planned on watching all of the Fate series after a few discussions with some friends.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
The Fate/Zero version of Gilgamesh is the exact same as the Unlimited Blade Works version.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Wild Child
Switching to abstaining on Gilgamesh.
Why so serious?
@ maddigan last page: The contradictions over multiversal singularities existing or not predate the Shrouding (for example, Alpha Trion is supposed to be a singularity, so how do you explain the universe where he's evil?). The Shrouding as I understand it was the writers basically deciding to resolve once and for all whether they do or don't exist, and ultimately decided on "don't."
RIP Toriyama
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Gilgamesh.
He's bad (Also one of my fave Anime villains), but seeing as Unlimited Blade Works is a direct continuation of Fate/Zero, during which time he had a few redeeming qualities, I don't think he counts.
Also, he genuinely seemed to think he was doing what was right, in a "Survival of the fittest" sort of way. Like, in a "Humanity has grown way too corrupt and weak, so I'm going to wipe out most of them, and those who survive can live peacefully and rewardingly as my servants, which will be best for everyone" sort of way.
Of course, I'm referring to the Anime series, not the film from 2010. I've never watched said film, which doesn't really hold much continuity, but I digress.
edited 11th Apr '16 1:50:17 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Gilgamesh
I'm Sad Frogerson.
@hamburgertime Yeah, the whole multiversal thing was pretty much a retcon to start out with. It wasn't even consistent within a single continuity family, let alone multiple ones. It seemed they tried to keep things consistent for a few years, but I guess that proved too constricting; so many creators just ignored it.
Then they tried to say that the Aligned universe was its own separate multiverse that wasn't connected to any of the others. Then they said that certain incarnations of the characters were "non-singularity" versions in order to fix any inconsistencies.
So now they pretty much said, "Whatever, it was too confusing to keep track of. So now it's no longer a thing". I do not envy those poor souls over at the TF Wiki who are trying to make sense of all this.
So, does this mean we should split the Fallen's & Unicron's entries?
Splitting the Fallen's & Unicron's entries sounds like the best idea.
I don't know, that's why I want to take opinions.
edited 11th Apr '16 2:31:48 PM by HamburgerTime
Man, this sounds like a really unnecessarily confusing way to fix continuity errors. But I guess that's SOP for comics.
If it helps, the retcon was followed by an "ask" feature on the official Transformers Facebook page that ran for nearly a year and answered literally hundreds of questions about both the new multiverse and longstanding mysteries like the names and pasts of various characters, etc.
I see you guys make valid points on Gilgamesh, perhaps I'll try and find a better candidate next time.
edited 11th Apr '16 3:21:41 PM by G-Editor
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Looking through their entries, it looks like the Fallen can be split into two entries (the Dreamwave and Film incarnations), while Unicron's entry contains seven incarnations of the character (The Marvel comic, the original film & cartoon, the G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers comic by Devil's Due, the 3H comics, the Unicron Trilogy, the Cybertron comics, and Transformers: Prime).
The Fallen can be split pretty easily, but we're going to have spend a lot of time working the Unicron entries.
edited 11th Apr '16 4:47:34 PM by chasemaddigan
Either way the Transformers monster page is gonna boom when we're done.
Does Unicron even count in the animated film? I haven't watched it in a while but he seemed pretty generic, especially when you compare, say, the Armada version where he's involved in active scheming and double-dealing through his pawns.
Oh, by the way, Sideways needs to go. The same ask column I mentioned confirmed Armada!Sideways and Cybertron!Sideways are indeed the same guy, and he gets a Freudian Excuse, albeit kinda a weak one, in the latter.
edited 11th Apr '16 4:58:56 PM by HamburgerTime
RIP Toriyama
Wait, what Freudian Excuse? I don't particularly remember one for him.
Sounds good. If need be, I'll handle the Transformers: Robots in Disguise Megatronus seeing as I was the one who proposed him.
edited 11th Apr '16 5:18:24 PM by Ravok
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Do we want to do individual effort posts on these guys in order to make sure which versions count? If so, I say we start with the Fallen since there's less work to do with him. Are there any objections to this?
I haven't seen Cybertron, but according to the wiki Sideways' home planet was destroyed in an interplanetary war and he wanted revenge (although apparently it was his own sides' fault for that). And before anyone asks, Sideways was not a multiversal character but rather a dimension-hopper.
edited 11th Apr '16 5:14:11 PM by chasemaddigan
Sure. It'll keep us busy.
Sold his soul to Unicron to avenge his planet. His planet was a warmonger that was destroyed by its own superweapon, but it shows he cared about it all the same.
edited 11th Apr '16 5:14:47 PM by HamburgerTime
I'm Sad Frogerson.
If no one else minds, I'll do an effort post for the film version of the Fallen within the next few days. So this means I get to watch Revenge of the Fallen again. May lord have mercy on my soul... 
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
Does he try to achieve the same evil plans there too?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.