Jupiterian Local
Yeah, I couldn't remember the details of that scene. It's definitely the first time she went to Shadesmar (isn't the backwards-shadows a Shadesmar thing? Or am I misrembering that?), but I don't remember if they make it clear whether it's her first time interacting with Ivory or not.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Oathbringer reread chapters 50 and 51
updated. Dalinar looking for Taln, and Moash with a couple Shallan scenes.
- They had prayed and burned glyphwards on his behalf; that was why highlords owned ardents.
AA: It bugs me too. I can set it aside from a practical perspective, because we know how little of their belief system is supported by reality. But from the perspective of a rather religious person, it's grating to see such a casual assumption that as long as someone else does the job properly on your behalf, you're fine.
L: It's like if a priest were to say, "No, don't worry, you don't need to actually be a good person, just do whatever you like and I'll be good for you." Granted, it's not quite the same, because of this:
AP: Except that it's all fake. The lighteyes are absolved of all the terrible stuff they do, while being fed a fiction that the darkeyes are given "free" training and everyone is happy with the system. We know that's not true. This is similar to narratives that were told about how slaves in the American South were "happy" being taken care of on the plantation, that it was in their best interest after all. Utter nonsense.
AA: I suspect it's not all fake, since some darkeyes do take advantage of the training, and the ardents (both lighteyed and darkeyed) do get to study what they want. Still, "everyone liked the system" is way overstating the case, and I agree that the lighteyes don't actually know how hard it is for many of the darkeyes to access the "free training." Basically, the higher lighteyes and most of the ardents like the system, and those are the ones Dalinar notices because they're the ones who can affect his life with their disapproval.
AP: If all the training were free, then Kaladin & family would not have been in the situation they were with Roshone. No need to steal spheres if you get free training in any skill, like becoming a surgeon. And yes, the system is totally a good one for the elite ruling class.
AA: There's free and then there's free. One of the problems with "free training" is that the person who wants to be trained still has to get to where the training is, and needs food and shelter during the training. If that stuff isn't free, then the free training is pretty expensive. It means that a darkeyes who lives in the same city as the ardents who can train him has a good deal, but the darkeyes who lives out in the middle of nowhere, with no relatives who can help, is out of luck.
This is, as always, the problem with caste systems and social divisions. It doesn't really matter how well-meaning everyone is, they are never going to truly understand how the other side lives. And then you get "well then let them eat cake" or "health insurance costs like ten bucks a month, right?" problems.
Everything else about the Vorin religion has its ups and downs. I like the point system because video games have proven that people will do a lot of stupid things if you give them points for it—if you give points for something that's actually good, you can encourage growth of the person and society. Except that their system places way too much emphasis on violence as a good thing.
- Kaladin would never have been able to stay aloft as long as these did. He'd run out of Stormlight.
AA: There's a quote from Szeth in the Prologue to The Way of Kings that's relevant here:
L: ...shit. What if that perfect stone is a gemheart? Trapping an Unmade in a HEART is pretty dark if you think about it.
Interesting theory about the "perfect gemstones," and lots of stuff about Voidbringer efficiency. Pretty sure they're wrong about the Heralds, though. Their efficiency sucked because they were just using the Honorblades. That's also why they glowed more; lots of Stormlight was escaping their bodies.
- "This is a long march from Narak and the Oathgate. I fear that by dividing our forces among Narak, here, and Urithiru, we're increasing our vulnerability to an attack." ... Unfortunately, they would probably need this place for farming operations, not to mention the lumber. Plateau runs for gemhearts couldn't sustain the tower city's population forever,
At least Sebarial is handling that while also working with Dalinar. Without him, they'd be left with those two Highprinces who barely associate with anyone.
It's hardly unusual for Earth religions. You go back to ancient times, tons of religions had the concept of making sacrifices to the gods, with the idea that whatever animal or other object was sacrificed would be transported to the gods' domain, as a tribute to them. Under that system, what matters most to the gods is that they get paid, and which person is physically performing the sacrifice is less important than who's bankrolling the operation.
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
not just ancient times. How many kings did horrible things but gave the Church money to pray for them to get into Heaven anyway.
Sorry, new accounts cannot post external links.
Edited by khosango on Oct 17th 2018 at 2:03:38 AM
[URL='https://www.khosango.com/']san go[/URL]
Oathbringer reread chapter 52 up. One of Dalinar's flashbacks, after a battle and meeting Renarin.
- He stood up, feeling... what?... The Thrill, still squirming deep down. How had it not dissipated since the battle?
L: I wonder if it's because he's physically closer to the Unmade's "body." Proximity must play some part in the Thrill, right?
AP: I had the same thoughts about proximity.
AA: It could be. We had evidence from multiple perspectives that it was getting harder to trigger out on the Shattered Plains, and then in Wo R we learned that it had flared in Jah Keved during their civil war. Taravangian was convinced that it was a matter of proximity of the Unmade, and thought that it had moved from the Shattered Plains to Vedenar. That wouldn't be relevant eighteen years ago, though. So... maybe?
Proximity might be important to the Thrill, but there's also the same addictive effects as any other drug. The more you take it, the worst parts take longer to wear off, while the good parts burn away faster. Nergaoul being a living thing complicates it a bit, but it still tracks real drugs pretty closely.
L: At least he has other women in the story with agency, who aren't cardboard cutouts of tropes. I think fridging is marginally more acceptable when there's a more gender-balanced main cast, but that's my personal opinion on the matter.
AA: I don't think Sanderson failed Evi at all. While her primary role (which we only see in flashbacks, mind you) was to set up Dalinar's trip to the Nightwatcher etc., she was a woman who made her own decisions. We don't yet know why she and Toh decided to run away with her Shardplate, but they left their home and traveled across the continent looking for sanctuary. Beyond that, IMO she did far more than just "die to inspire Dalinar." She gave him a different perspective on the world, she framed the character of their sons, and in significant ways she shaped his character, even before her death. Ultimately, she made her own choice to do something she knew Dalinar would hate, when she went to Talanor to try to convince him to surrender. While she couldn't know whether Talanor would offer parley nor whether Dalinar would accept it, it was her own independent choice to take the risk and go. She died for her decision. Yes, Dalinar did have a significant character shift as a result, but I see Evi as much more than a "fridged woman" trope. Personally.
AP: The point is that none of that is shown. We only have Evi as she exists from Dalinar's, and Adolin's, perspectives. She literally only exists in the narrative in the memories of the men whose lives she affected. It may be that in later books we are shown her heroic/villainous actions in leaving Rira with her brother, but for now, she got fridged.
AA: Gavilar only exists in the memories of others, too. Does that make him a fridged man?
The thing to remember about fridging (or any other trope that involves screwing over minorities) is that it's about a trend. If Evi was the only female character in the book with any agency and she got killed off for manpain, we'd be up in arms. But she's not the only female character, and as noted, in many ways Gavilar also got killed off for manpain.
I'm not saying we can't discuss Evi in relation to fridging. It's just important to remember her in the wider context of the work.
- [Adolin] got down safely, walked over.
And saluted.
AP: It's telling that even at a very young age Adolin is able to connect to his father in a way that Evi can't.
AA: I'm destined for the role of contrarian this week; it's becoming comical. I think this moment is incredibly cute and all, but I still retain my first reaction to this scene. Dalinar seems nonplussed, and Evi is delighted by Adolin's precociousness, but I can't help thinking this is not a healthy greeting from a five-year-old who hasn't seen his father for over a year.
L: In our society, no. But in Alethi society, where war is so predominant and soldiers are viewed as heroes?
While this is kinda cute, I'm definitely of the opinion that this is more evidence of how terrible Alethi society, and Dalinar's parenting in particular, is. If the only way a son can relate to his father is as a soldier, you have a problem.
Jupiterian Local
L: This makes me so angry. It's like the concept of the "man-cave" — a place where a man can "escape" from domestic life of wife and children. But in so doing, it's implied that the woman continues to bear the burden she has all along anyway. She gets to clean the house and raise the children and cook the food, and that's precisely what's happening with Evi, here. Dalinar gets to go out and be "free" while she stays home to do the work that they should be doing together.
The idea that Sanderson had problems writing women is news to me.
said, there's nothing inherently wrong with fridging (or most tropes), the problem is that it happens mostly to women, and the focus is mostly on how it affects men. As pointed out, Sanderson also fridged Gavilar, and I think Oathbringer does a pretty good job of portraying Evi's fate as tragic for her sake, not just because it made Dalinar sad. Reading the flashback chapters made me sad for Evi, which defies the spirit of fridging even if it fits the letter of the definition.
L: That’s a completely fair reading of the situation as well. It could go either way, honestly, though basing it solely on textual clues I’d lean more towards your analysis. I’m tin-foil-hatting it.
Now, the way Dalinar treats his kids after Evi's death? That I'd definitely call abuse. But not toward Evi.
Edited by NativeJovian on Oct 18th 2018 at 2:13:46 PM
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Vorin culture is generally pretty big on segregation of the sexes, with the idea that men have areas they operate in, women have areas of their own they operate in, and the two should only intersect when necessary.
As for Sanderson's writing of women, I did have a problem with how he handled writing a female protagonist in Mistborn. Specifically, it's because a lot of Vin's story is about her learning and coming to rebuke the idea that Real Women Don't Wear Dresses, and that she can be a badass fighter and an elegant lady who enjoys wearing pretty dresses and going to balls.
In theory, that's not bad, but the problem is that the story seems to take it as a given that characters would see these stereotypically masculine and feminine interests as being at odds with each other, when Vin's background as given in the books doesn't really provide a basis for that. The "feminine" things that Vin enjoys are all things practiced by upper-class women, the nobles of the setting; the skaa society that Vin was raised in never had fancy dresses or elaborate parties, so they'd have no reason to have such preconceptions about them. Plus, Vin's brother raised her to avoid drawing her attention to herself in any way, so dressing up fancy and violently attacking people were both things she was forbidden from doing.
And once Vin infiltrates noble society, there doesn't seem to be anyone instilling such a masculine/feminine dichotomy on her. The thieving crew trains her extensively both in combat and espionage as well as fashion and etiquette. And among the nobles, one of the most prominent characters she interacts with is beautiful, fashionable, sophisticated lady who is also a deadly Mistborn assassin.
Basically, it feels like Sanderson had a bone to pick with the idea that Real Women Don't Wear Dresses, and made tearing down that idea a big part of Vin's character arc throughout the Mistborn trilogy (with echoes of it occasionally appearing with Marasi in the Wax & Wayne series), but without thinking about whether it made sense for this particular woman to have such a struggle with the concept.
Edited by RavenWilder on Oct 18th 2018 at 11:40:42 AM
In addition to Raven's points, in Elantris and the first Mistborn, Sanderson fell into the trap that Feminist writers (especially male ones) often stumble into, where the awesome female character who bucks social trends is basically the only female character who does anything at all. The world ends up looking very male-dominated, even more so than in real life. It's hardly the worst problem with how women are portrayed in fiction, but it is still a problem, and he gets better about it in later books.
I don't feel like Evi was fridged - or, st least, I don't find it egregious - because dying is far from her only role in the story. She does come across as a fully-realized, three-dimensional character, with her own beliefs and convictions and decisions, and she dies as a result of her and Dalinar having ver different values and making very different decisions.
I find her to be an intensely admirable person. She's willing to stand single-handedly against the toxic ideology of an entire society, and yet be able to continue to love a man who's the very epitome of that society.
Edited by Galadriel on Oct 18th 2018 at 5:30:10 AM
Yeah, the problem with Mistborn re: female characters wasn't Vin as such (I mean, I do feel like she spent way too long on the 'can I be both feminine and badass?' question, but it wasn't too bad). It was that Vin was literally the only female character in the main roster. In fact the only other female character I can recall from Final Empire is Elend's fiance?
Being a heist novel, there was the whole 'crew of various different people with complementary skills join forces'. And literally every single one of them is male, which is not great. Sanderson got a lot better at that over time.
And, yeah, I actually quite like Evi. She could easily have been a sweet innocent nothing of a character, but I feel like she came across as a distinct person with her own history, attitudes, etc.
I also disagree that Dalinar didn't love her. I mean, obviously he didn't when he didn't remember her - but just because his relationship with Evi doesn't resemble his relationship with Navani at all, doesn't mean it wasn't its own kind of love.
Edited by LoniJay on Oct 28th 2018 at 7:41:09 PM
Be not afraid...
Oathbringer chapter 53 reread. I don't have much to say about it, but they do have some translated glyphs
which include the Alethi words for the first ideals. So that's fun.
- "We were close once."
"My father wished us to be close. Do not mistake his fancies for fact."
...
"Why, Jasnah? Why have you always denied me?"
"Other than the fact that you are a detestable buffoon who achieves only the lowest level of mediocrity, as it is the best your limited mind can imagine? I can't possibly think of a reason."
AP: No means no. It makes me wonder what he was like when they were younger. I got seriously creepy vibes when he grabbed her arm.
L: Saaaaame.
"I let myself be pushed into abundant emotion."
"You were so clever!"
AP: I like how this shows the difference in maturity between them so clearly. Shallan is just over the moon about the epic burns, and Jasnah is self-critical about the tactics she chose to take and knows that there will be consequences.
Yeah, Amaram is skeevy as hell. Obviously Jasnah could defend herself both physically and verbally, but I'm curious how Alethi culture normally handles sexual harassment.
World's Cutest Direwolf
I imagine it goes rather differently depending on the eye color of those involved.
On a lighter note, I wonder if that Purity's Eye bit on the page about glyphs refers to an actual Purity shard.
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
Guess which Book got promoted by Liam 'Illidan' O'Brien due to Tor Books sponsoring of Critical Role last episodes ^^
"You can reply to this Message!"
Oathbringer chapter 54 reread updated. Moash meeting the Fused he killed.
- The Fused regarded him and grinned.
"Someone in charge," Moash repeated.
The Voidbringer laughed, then fell backward into the water of the cistern, where he floated, staring at the sky.
Great, Moash thought. One of the crazy ones. There were many of those.
AP: Oh, totally. As we see with the Fused who makes a saw out of carapace, it's not only the warriors who get brought back. I wonder what the criteria is for who gets new bodies and who doesn't. Will some of these insane Fused be denied new bodies when they die? Or is the resurrection process automatic? It also definitely has to shake the faith the Parshmen have in their "gods".
I'm pretty sure the process is automatic, which is part of the problem. As far as anyone knows, there is no way to reduce the number of Fused permanently. And the book definitely said outright that they get crazier every time they reincarnate; some of them are just better at holding onto their sanity.
I also like how it averts Insane Equals Violent.
- "Look, you're one of the leaders?"
"I'm one of the Fused who is sane," she said, as if it were the same thing.
AP: To a point at least. I'm curious as to what the hierarchy is among the Fused. The sane ones, anyway. Who are the actual decision makers? How much autonomy do they have?
This also shows some of Odium's hypocrisy. He goes on and on about passion, but when that passion drives some of his greatest soldiers completely bonkers, they have to be pushed aside in favor of people who can actually make coherent decisions.
I'm not disagreeing with his choice to put the sane ones in charge, I'm disagreeing with his insistence that passion is the most important thing.
That is a good question. I think I was assuming a little subconsciously that they were locked to one form (and that's part of the reason they're so skilled with their powers), but it hasn't said.
- Let go, Moash, something deep within him whispered. Give up your pain. It's all right. You did what was natural.
You can't be blamed. Stop carrying that burden.
Let go.
Sanderson loves mixing internal narrative with supernatural influence.
Edited by Discar on Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:51:49 AM
The carapace saw has me wondering just what else the "forms of power" can do. The Fused seem to simply have the same Surgebinding abilities as the Radiants, only when they do it it's called Voidbinding. But them there's stormform, which let the Parshendi generate lightning bolts, and this one guy making a saw blade grow out of his arm. It feels like there's a lot more to explore, there.
World's Cutest Direwolf
Oathbringer chapter 55 updated. Mostly Rlain's chapter. I don't have a whole lot to say about it, but one thing did stick out:
That's really the only thing I can think of to explain where he disappears to after this chapter: a quest to determine if any of his people survived. It occurred to me that perhaps Kaladin saw something of the others which he could tell Rlain, but it would be very unlike Sanderson to hide something that critical. "Let's just not tell the readers that the protagonist knows something" is too cheap, so I don't think that's the answer. At the same time, I think it has to be a decision that Kaladin makes, and something the two of them come up with as a valid option, that sends Rlain off on a mission. Could he go back to where the humans and Parshmen first met, or something? Oh, the mystery!!
I completely missed that Rlain didn't show up in the book after this. I agree that he's most likely looking for the rest of the listeners.
That guy with the face
So my sister got me into this (thanks, Elena). I'm about 13 hours into the first book's audiobook. Kaladin's started trying to save the bridgemen and Atolin just found out that Elhokar's saddle was most likely cut, but it was probably an accident.
Can I just say, JESUS FUCK! Does anything good happen to Kaladin, or does he exist to get shit on by the universe over and over?
Edited by Rytex on Jan 7th 2020 at 7:10:46 AM
Qui odoratus est qui fecit.
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
Kaladin kinda starts the series at the lowest point of his life. But hey...only way is up?
"You can reply to this Message!"
Eventually. And he's so dour that it takes him a while to notice.
I just noticed two things in Oathbringer and since we have a new reader here i will put it into spoilers.
1: I think the idea that stormlight- (or cosmere in general) -healing is based on selfimage to be incomplete. The idea that Kaladin can´t heal his slavebrands because he still sees himself as one has been around sometime. At the same time Rysn also was unable to get her legs healed, as she accepted that she was crippled.
I never liked this, as the healthy thing to do is to come to terms with your past wounds if something traumatic like that happens. But when i compared these cases to two other cases of stormlight healing old "wounds" (namely Lopens arm and Renarins eyesight) i realized what the difference was between Kaladin/Rysn and Lopens/Renarin. The first two have made their unhealable wounds a defining part of their being/personality, while the later accepted what they were, but didn´t let it define them. So i postulate, that while selfimage is important for healing, ultimatly it comes down to how much you let your injuries define you. (And it gives me hope that Rysn will start to see herself as a merchant again and be able to get her legs back)
2: During Words of Radiance we get this snippet from the Diagram "There has to be an answer. What is the answer? Stop. The Parshendi. One of them. Yes they are the missing piece. Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this ine obtains their power. It will form a bridge.(Floorboard 17)"
The second time reading it i thought it was about Venli and that she had to be stopped to prevent the everstorm (forming a bridge to get their gods back), but this interpretation doesn´t work now that we know that the Diagram was always about getting Roshars humans favourable conditions for their surrender. My new interpretation is that Mr. T was either talking about Eshonai or about Venli and the power the could obtain is a Nahel-bond, thereby allowing them to form a bridge between humans and listener with the Knights Radiant as a linker between the two
I would Love to hear you demolish my ideas, i always love to come up with new ones^^
That guy with the face
So, I'm partway into Part 3. The new Bridge Captain was installed, Bridge 4 has been perma-assigned to chasm duty. Kaladin continues to have life shit all over him, Shallan and Kabsal are flirting heavily over bread and jam.
With a name like Taravangian, next to all of these simpler names, he's either got to be a Big Bad or a Big Good. And then there's the way "Sadeas" just sounds villainous too. It's honestly one of my favorite high fantasy tropes, but it's kind of obnoxious sometimes. Why do all our Big Goods have to have names like Paragonius Awesomeman or Princess Cadance Notevil Goodpony and all our villains have names like Murderian ImpressiveName McKillingSpree IV? Their mothers must want these kids to grow up to become sacrificial father figures or evil people. In fairness, though, if Taravangian turns out to be some kind of endgame antagonist, his name is subtler than Galbatorix.
Qui odoratus est qui fecit.
He who holds fandoms in contempt
Part of it could be the voices the actor chooses for each character. If you're listing to the Michael Cramer one then...yeah he really made Sadeas sound like a weasely uppity ponce.
The mention of Kal brought up a question , though I'll have to spoiler tag it. It's been a while since I've last gone to Roshar but... In theory, is it really a good idea to tie godlike abilities to people who aren't 100% in their right minds? That really sounds like it could go wrong in a heartbeat.
If you can't handle being outed by a signature, that's on you.
It was seriously just like, three lines. This bit, and the bit last week about Jasnah remembering screaming in a dark room. So I'm really not surprised you missed it.
I don't think she had her spren yet, though. I mean, it's possible (we've seen how delusional a Radiant can be in denying her spren), but I doubt it. My guess is that she either has some natural mental disorder that opened her up to becoming a Surgebinder. Though I suppose it could be both. In the WoR prologue she was disturbed but not surprised when her shadow went the wrong way, so maybe supernatural stuff has been happening to her her entire life (because of the cracks in her soul caused by her mental disorder), and one freak out too many got her tossed into psychiatric care.