Hi all,
Character-Specific Pages have seen multiple examples of misuse over the past months, with tropers immediately using the 40k byte count (or sometimes less) threshold as a greenlight to split off characters who meet that count into their own pages without checking all other criteria (e.g. is the page Overly Long, and most importantly have other options been tried first, like splitting the page into smaller groups etc — both of which form part of the current existing guidelines). This has led to a plethora of rogue pages being launched, which need to be merged back and is time-consuming.
To firm things up, the working group at Cleanup Thread: Character Specific Pages
have worked up new proposed wording to sit on the CSP landing page to help with compliance, and to ensure a smoother, less fragmented user-experience. Here is the newly worded guidance:
Here are the steps that should be assessed when considering splitting character pages:
- If the page has reached past or is close to reaching 250,000 written characters (this can be seen on the bottom left of the edit page in green), permission is given to split. If not, the page isn't in danger of being overly-long and no split is needed.
Example: The Character Page for Alice Vs. Bob is over 250k written characters; this page should be split into smaller pages. If not, take no action.
- If the page has tipped over the 250k written characters mark, the first goal should be to split the page into smaller sections (i.e. sorting characters alphabetically, by group, or suchlike)
Example: Several character folders fall under the group "Team Alice" and form the biggest portion of the page. A new page can be made called "Alice Vs. Bob: Team Alice" where these folders will a be moved.
- If Step 2 has been attempted, and there are no other practical solutions (e.g. in a situation where an already-split page also inflates beyond the 250k byte count) then splitting out a high-byte-count character (40k bytes+) into a CSP is the solution.
Example: Team Alice's page has reached the 250k count. Alice's folder is the biggest one on the page, and it meets the other qualifiers for a CSP as seen below. A new page can be made called "Alice Vs. Bob: Alice" where this folder will go.
The steps for splitting and creating character pages (as written above) must first be followed.
- The character's page is cleaned up beforehand, fixing any Zero Context Examples, removing outdated/misused tropes, and making sure all tropes listed fall under Characters and its related indexes (exceptions can be discussed).
- The page is at least 6,000 words/40,000 written characters (with spaces). Here is a byte counter. Once a new Character-Specific Page has been created, be sure to add its byte count to this page.
- The page it's split off from should reach the same minimum count.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lex.
Edited by lexii on Feb 21st 2024 at 5:50:37 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I just don't see how it was an issue so unmitigable. Granted, I'm not privy to the approval process, but from what i've seen (and performed myself), all aspiring CSP pages must be approved in the thread before they go up. I even had the one page I created vetted by a member here after I asked to do so. If a page is thrown up without consultation, it gets booted, fair's fair. Was there seriously such an epidemic that it needed to be handled in a way that cuts down all preexisting CS Ps?
Edited by WinningPony on Feb 25th 2024 at 9:52:08 AM
The Formatter
Idk how we got here tbh. As far as I know people just wanted the procedure for launch to be tighter, no vague wording or anything, just an airtight procedure.
he/him
I do wonder how many of our CSP issues have been due to loopholes in the existing guidance vs. how many are due to tropers just not following the existing guidance.
This will certainly help with the first one but is not going to fix the second issue.
It may give mods more scope to take action after the fact, but I don't think (?) we get many repeat offenders on this anyway. Once someone's been pinged to the CSP thread and told about the process, they usually do better next time?
the Retromancer
I had a prediction based on earlier discussion that "cleanup first" would be more controversial, as it implies someone would have to do heavy lifting related to multiple policies on a page that is fairly large, before moving would be allowed, but it seems mostly everyone agrees.
Instead, it sounds like a lot of people want so CSP can be launched even if Characters/ page doesn't have any other/faction subpages. Since the ratio is relatively close to 2.0, maybe it's worth discussing that part in case there are potential issues.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Hey - it was (in my experience) a mixture of both. Tropers were latching on to the 40k threshold without considering any other factors; like is it necessary to split off a character when the page they currently inhabit is in no danger of being overly-long (which is why we started the CSP exercise in the first place) — that's the importance of the "other options must be tried first, like splitting the page into smaller sections" criteria. Most of the rogue ones were either of this type, or there were plenty of examples that launched with a sub-40k byte count — the 'badge of honour' concept rightly noted above by Hello is certainly an issue, and I think our new rules will help clear things up, as they are a defined checklist, not a menu (which leads to the 'pick and choose' aspect of the criteria).
Edited by lexii on Feb 26th 2024 at 10:11:39 AM
Again, tropers make dumb decisions all the time. Its the point of the quality cleanup threads to keep it from getting out of control, and it did a fine job as far as I could tell for several years. I've found a few fanfic CS Ps that seem to have gone through without discussion, but I made sure to correctly catalogue them so they could be checked for quality later, and they were very very much in the minority.
Hey - the mission is to firm up the wording so it reads as a definitive checklist to go through before proceeding, which will be clearer than the current wording, as that's more of an 'options menu' of various qualifiers. We can't stop misuse, you are absolutely correct, but we can make wording more defined so tropers don't hone in on one qualifier. This will hopefully cut down misuse, which we do see week-on-week in the CSP Project thread.
He/Him
What are we to do about the current guideline (not requirement) that you can make a CSP if "A single character takes up the majority of a page or is disproportionately bigger than other folders."
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project
he/him
The prospective CSP would also have to meet all of the other requirements agreed by the Crowner result.
Just a question, is there a maximum limit before a character's entry gets so long on a multi-character page that it pretty much warrants their own page? For instance around 80k bytes, which even if it could stay on a page take up a large portion of even pages getting close to being overly long. Obviously it needs to be cleaned up to make sure it actually needs to be that long, but if an entry gets that long would that mean the character pretty much just needs a character page because their entry is just so massive?
Hey - we will have a view on guidelines going forward in the next few days.
he/him
Calling the Crowner in favour of all of the proposals.
It's been a week, everything has at least 30 votes, and nothing is below +20 or below the consensus 2:1 ratio.
Now that policy is confirmed, the next step is to fine-tune exact phrasing describing it (or confirm support for the current version) via the Administrivia thread, then we'll update the policy page itself.
Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 2nd 2024 at 5:07:58 PM
Great, thank you for letting us know
He/Him
Of the new requirements we have, the order should probably be
- A new Character-Specific Page will only be considered if the original page is close to 250,000 characters in length.
- Other options must have been tried first, like splitting pages into further groups. A CSP can only be created if this option isn't workable
- The character folder must be cleaned up beforehand, fixing any ZCEs, removing outdated/misused tropes, and making sure all tropes listed fall under Characters and its related indexes.
- The character folder has at least 40,000 characters
- The parent folder that the potential CSP came from must still have at least 40,000 characters after the CSP is launched.
Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Mar 3rd 2024 at 6:37:38 PM
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project
I think you've captured that nicely. The proposed checklist-style steps in the header, along with the 'Alice & Bob' examples, really help to present what actions a troper should follow too, I feel.
The Formatter
One thing. Is it characters or bytes?
It's gonna be fun on the bun!
One-Track Mind (he/him)
the Retromancer
Effectively the same, but the counter in the editor is for letters.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
He/Him
Administrivia.Character Specific Pages has officially been updated with the new steps and requirements
Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Mar 5th 2024 at 3:58:10 AM
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wow, I didn't realize the epidemic was so bad. Because I realized...with these new rules, the cleanup will be massive.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
he/him
Now that decisions have been made and Administrivia's updated, should we lock this thread and keep all cleanup discussion & queries on the main CSP cleanup thread?
the Retromancer
Since the point of the thread is to write the new guidelines, with that done, unless someone has something to add in a day or two, there's nothing really to do.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
he/him
Agreed. I'll lock later this week unless anyone objects.
He/Him
Go ahead with the lock
Regardless, the issue we mostly were looking to solve was people creating CSP non-stop (I'm certainly not absolved of that myself). It will also make quality control way easier when there are fewer new pages to look through and tighten.
Character Specific Page cleanup