Hi all,
Character Specific Pages have seen multiple examples of misuse over the past months, with tropers immediately using the 40k byte count (or sometimes less) threshold as a greenlight to split off characters who meet that count into their own pages without checking all other criteria (e.g. is the page Overly Long, and most importantly have other options been tried first, like splitting the page into smaller groups etc — both of which form part of the current existing guidelines). This has led to a plethora of rogue pages being launched, which need to be merged back and is time-consuming.
To firm things up, the working group at Cleanup Thread: Character Specific Pages
have worked up new proposed wording to sit on the CSP landing page to help with compliance, and to ensure a smoother, less fragmented user-experience. Here is the newly worded guidance:
Here are the steps that should be assessed when considering splitting character pages:
- If the page has reached past or is close to reaching 250,000 written characters (this can be seen on the bottom left of the edit page in green), permission is given to split. If not, the page isn't in danger of being overly-long and no split is needed.
Example: The Character Page for Alice Vs. Bob is over 250k written characters; this page should be split into smaller pages. If not, take no action.
- If the page has tipped over the 250k written characters mark, the first goal should be to split the page into smaller sections (i.e. sorting characters alphabetically, by group, or suchlike)
Example: Several character folders fall under the group "Team Alice" and form the biggest portion of the page. A new page can be made called "Alice Vs. Bob: Team Alice" where these folders will a be moved.
- If Step 2 has been attempted, and there are no other practical solutions (e.g. in a situation where an already-split page also inflates beyond the 250k byte count) then splitting out a high-byte-count character (40k bytes+) into a CSP is the solution.
Example: Team Alice's page has reached the 250k count. Alice's folder is the biggest one on the page, and it meets the other qualifiers for a CSP as seen below. A new page can be made called "Alice Vs. Bob: Alice" where this folder will go.
The steps for splitting and creating character pages (as written above) must first be followed.
- The character's page is cleaned up beforehand, fixing any Zero Context Examples, removing outdated/misused tropes, and making sure all tropes listed fall under Characters and its related indexes (exceptions can be discussed).
- The page is at least 6,000 words/40,000 written characters (with spaces). Here is a byte counter. Once a new Character-Specific Page has been created, be sure to add its byte count to this page.
- The page it's split off from should reach the same minimum count.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lex.
Edited by lexii on Feb 21st 2024 at 5:50:37 PM
Franchouchou Sponsor
Can you elaborate?
Character Specific Page cleanup
One-Track Mind (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
From Mrph's mod post:
We’d look to correct created pages that haven’t followed existing guidelines (these rules aren’t new, we are just adding clarity)
Edited by lexii on Feb 23rd 2024 at 6:19:43 PM
One-Track Mind (he/him)
He was asking for me to elaborate on what I meant by adding the "Grandfather clause option" to the crowner.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Sorry my bad
Edited by JHD0919 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 1:13:41 PM
I'm lovin' it. (My Troper Wall)
Franchouchou Sponsor
I missed an “”
he/him
This one would cover the grandfather clause:
- Once the new guidelines are approved, all current Character-Specific Pages will be reviewed and any that don't meet all of the new guidelines will be merged back into multi-character pages.
If this item is voted up into consensus range, we launch a cleanup.
If not, a 'grandfather clause'note would apply and older pages that don't meet all of the new rules would remain 'as is' until/unless we had a reason to change them.
If we wanted a mutually exclusive option that directly votes on keeping the existing pages, we could do that. But 'no change' is also the default if this one doesn't get into consensus range.
Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 23rd 2024 at 6:23:00 PM
One-Track Mind (he/him)
That's good to know. Thanks for clarifying!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I like the options Mrph proposed for the crowner.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Question how would this affect stuff like MCU: Avengers. Which mostly just an index for all of those members, as they each have a page?
Edited by Bullman on Feb 23rd 2024 at 6:01:04 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Formatter
And while we’re on the subject of Marvel and Superheroes, how about Marvel Universe and The DCU?
he/him
The six proposed Crowner options are live.
All of these changes can be delivered independently, and none are mutually exclusive, so if not all gain consensus this shouldn't be a problem.
I'll do the ATT announcement now.
If we want to add further options (e.g. if the "hub page" discussion that's just started turns into a proposal), then we can do so in the same way after they've been covered on the thread, with a new ATT announcement required for each batch.
(With the caveat that this is a CSP policy thread and Crowner - character page proposals that aren't specific to CSPs don't really belong here)
Note that we don't need to call everything at the same time, so if we do add another batch it won't slow results on the first six.
Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 24th 2024 at 9:49:13 AM
One-Track Mind (he/him)
and
Not speaking for Mrph or any of the other mods here, but I think the pages in those indices will probably be merged back into said indices.
Edited by JHD0919 on Feb 24th 2024 at 8:10:16 AM
I'm lovin' it. (My Troper Wall)
I'm helping!
Posting to make public that we upvoted all the new requirements and did not vote on the "review all existing pages" option
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Franchouchou Sponsor
So far the only one that seems contentious is "Character-Specific Page can only be created if this option isn't workable"
Character Specific Page cleanup
he/him
That's still in consensus range — although as policy changes, all of them will get the full week on the Crowner before we call them.
He/Him
Why exactly is the "other options must have been tried first" option getting downvoted?
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project
One-Track Mind (he/him)
Maybe the 11 tropers who downvoted it can explain?
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I imagine that people don't want to make it stricter than it already is. Didn't downvote tho
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
he/him
It's also one of the more subjective ones, which frequently split opinion on rules vs. guidelines.
"Must be at least 40,000 characters" is a simple restriction - you may or may not agree with it, but there's no ambiguity in there.
"Other options must be tried first" isn't going to be quite that simple to enforce. Which doesn't mean it's not worth doing, just that I can see why it gets a different range of opinions.
The Moron
Personally I didn't see the point in enforcing that restriction when the pages are getting several other restrictions by a fairly clear majority - basically, if they're already getting some more firm restrictions, that one just felt unnecessary in my opinion.
The way I see it is that it leaves a loophole for those that see this as a Badge of Honor, despite the stricter requirements, they can still say it's okay to split because they won't have to follow the stricter requirements if they remain a recommendation.
So that's why I upvoted it.
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
He/Him
Same reason I upvoted it
To some tropers, CSPs are to TV Tropes as "Pure Evil" is to villains wiki
They're not badges of honor but we sometimes treat them like they are
Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project
he/him
I don't have that strong a view on it as I think the other changes close most loopholes.
If the page must be approaching 250k characters, and each CSP must be 40k+, and the original page must remain at 40k+ once all CSPs have been split out, and every new CSP must be cleaned and approved by the thread...
At that point it may be a badge of honor to some folk, but it's very hard to game the system to get there.
Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 25th 2024 at 12:46:05 PM
Will the Grandfather Clause option also be on the crowner?
I'm lovin' it. (My Troper Wall)